steve

It'll be alright... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw5JkJQgYsM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZmqbcBsTAw

Rant on: I'll preface any further discussion with the following simile: Talking and thinking about Tai Ji is to practicing Tai Ji Quan as; Talking and thinking about sex is to experiencing a sexual relationship. I can spend my life studying Yin and Yang theory and have absolutely no Tai Ji Quan skill. I cannot have any skill in Tai Ji Quan whatsoever without doing. I assert that absolutely no knowledge of Yin-Yang is necessary - only practice with proper guidance. As one gains skill and (non-intellectual) understanding, then we attempt to convey this to each other verbally. We then convince ourselves that this verbalization/intellectual image is somehow a measure of the skill. There's a great book called The Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien Ying. When I first started reading it, I hardly understood anything. I returned to it over a period of 3 or 4 years and each time I came back, after 6 months of training for example, I would understand more. Until finally, I don't need the book at all - I understand it. And the understanding had nothing to do with reading the book. The book was simply validation after experience. Tai Ji Quan is experiential, not verbal. But then the forum gets boring so... Rant off Back to the regularly scheduled program. Tai Ji Quan is nothing more or less than the embodiment of living Tai Ji principles in the practice of combat. You don't have to know anything about it intellectually, IMO, but if you are not expressing it through your practice, it is not Tai Ji Quan, it's just quan.

I think we enjoy virtually every second of our lives. We just take that for granted, we screen out the absolute wonder and beauty of existence and focus on the fears and disappointments. We are wired to focus on threats and opportunities, not the simple and subtle and nourishing fabric of life. That's a given, it's always there. One day it won't be, and that's fine too, because everyone else will still be. So it is truly as simply as pausing, in any moment, and simply marveling at life and existence for a moment and realizing that this experience is going on for everyone, all of the time. Smell the roses, every chance you get!

That's a beautiful poem

Hi San Ti, I also practice Xingyiquan as well. As I teach the form, I insure that each posture is being learned more or less correctly. There is always room for adding detail and making corrections as skill is developed. I would not object to a skilled martial artist learning the basic 13 postures and working martial applications and perfecting those postures without learning the form. What will happen, however, is that they will not be Taijiquan. They will have the flavor of the existing martial artist's knowledge. Learning the postures will add to the martial artist's knowledge and skill but will be lacking, I think. Adding slow and mindful form practice after learning the basic 13 should not be a problem although some "un-learining" may be necessary as the movements are linked together and done slowly and mindfully. True Taijiquan is Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding, it is yielding, it is light and agile, it has certain qualities that require specific training methods. In my opinion, many of these qualities come directly out of the form practice and I'm not aware of a better way to teach them. There are no short cuts in mastering Taijiquan. What I have found when teaching students martial applications too early is that they apply the techniques in a manner similar to other martial arts (using li, rather than yi; too much force, no sensitivity, etc..). So I do believe that it is advantageous to become skillful at the form before teaching martial application.

It really depends on what you're looking for. If you want to develop meaningful skill in Taijiquan, I'd suggest you get personal instruction and incorporate a form in your training. Forms develop certain skills that will be difficult to come across otherwise (song, jing, ziran, distinguishing full from empty, exciting the Qi and containing the Shen, developing the deep connection between Yi and Qi and Li). There are good reasons for why forms have become a major component in most Taijiquan traditions. It is unlikely that many of us could find a better substitute. In my tradition, we also emphasize training in the 13 postures but this is a much more advanced training and focuses on martial skill and comes after a high level of competency in the form(s). If you just want to play around with the 13 postures for fun or just for a taste of the art, go for it. The important thing to recognize in Taijiquan is that the postures themselves are not so critical - it is the mind-body connection that is key because it allows one to develop skill in listening, sticking, yielding, peng, agility, fajin, and similar qualities that are the essence of Taijiquan as a martial art. Any posture can be applied effectively using proper Taiji skills but no posture is Taiji without those skills. The form is indeed a long Qigong exercise, but it is much more than that from the point of view of studying Taijiquan in earnest.

I practice neigong that is said to lead to extreme lightness, agility, and even levitation. I know it works - the lightness and agility, at least. Levitation? Only one way to find out.... keep practicing!

Welcome Satya Ram. Namaste

I have no idea what an all Taoist city would look like but I read a book once called The Monastery of Jade Mountain by Peter Goullart. Like thelerner suggests, it gives glimpses into some monasteries, both Buddhist and Daoist which are enlightening. It's important to remember that there is no separation in the Chinese mind and spirit between Daoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism. Such distinctions are intellectual and artificial. Cities are what they are, people behave in certain ways. "Daoist" is a label, a creation of mind to encapsulate certain ideals and ideology. On the other hand, one could argue that every city is a Daoist city because Dao encompasses all. All cities arise from and return to it. All of us arise from it and return to it.

I wonder if your description of the child-like experience of experiencing Qi is somehow related to what I feel is stripping away the obstacles and distractions, the expectations, and yielding to the experience. I think that degree of open-ness, the vulnerability and acceptance is related to how a child interacts with the environment she has not yet labeled and categorized, and filed away under "I know that". And having faith and confidence that it is OK. It is as it should be.

Beautiful Wonderful For me, all of your questions boil down to this. I need to look very deeply in myself which includes looking out. All solutions need to come from awareness.

Excellent observation, I think that is accurate

My experience is that Qi is not something "other" than me - my(self/experience/awareness/mind/body). I experience it as a process or interaction between my sensory and conscious awareness and what I perceive to be my body, objects, space, ... Sort of like the stuff/non-stuff the universe is/is-not "made of/not-made of" You know, I don't think it's accidental that Western science can't identify a "substance" which can be considered a foundation of being - only energy which is the observation or potential for change. Similarly, Qi cannot be measured or specifically identified as a "quantity" of anything by Western or Eastern methods. Dao literally means change. And the single most important word one can use to describe all of Buddhism (and I agree with thuscomeone on this, heartily) is .... drum roll...... ........ chang. So stop trying to separate yourself from Qi and look at it. It doesn't exist really. Not that you can capture in a measurement. Qi is your experience of the universe. It takes different forms based on how you tune your antennae (all your senses). And there are additional senses that can be developed skillfully through meditation, internal martial art, qigong, and neigong practices (not to mention Yoga, Tibetan methods, prayer, etc...). Building Qi is really more a process of give and take between self and other. Focusing the antena. Stripping away distractions and obstacles. Stop trying to look at it from the outside - you can't see it from the outside until you feel it on the inside, then it is completely obvious what it is and what it isn't. I agree with Shaktimama and Manitou and Yamu completely. Sloppy Zhang - I personally understand Qi as inseparable from awareness therefore it must be empirically validated. Science makes approximations by excluding from it any bias created by virtue of the presence of the observer (and all scientists know this is an approximation and no one knows what the exact effects of the observer are. In fact, I think they are basically unknowable). So there is a quality of Qi that is linked to awareness that is similar to the "Uncertainty" to use Heisenberg's term. And in the internal arts and meditation we look at that specifically. And science has no language for that. Language has no language for that. The intellectual mind has to be put aside for a moment because we are dealing with the unknowable. That is why this has to be felt, not understood. I don't know if I just made any sense but it seemed to come out right...

Define those words - show me the reality behind the images they evoke. No we are not. It is not what "we are made of" it is something that exists in space around us, a mixture of gases. You need to dig much deeper than either of those answers. At each level, make sure your terms are clearly defined and then ask, who is asking the question?

If you truly want to wrestle with a good question, it is one you ask yourself - unremittingly, unapologetically, and unceremoniously. Who Am I? There is really no need for any other question.

Sorry, I think I read more into your OP than you intended. Nevertheless, I stand by my comments.

The issue to me is not one of content but presentation. I have learned just as much about Dao and Wu Wei and related concepts from sources that would not be considered classically Daoist as I have from the classics. Bringing other traditions and ideas into our discussions is enriching and expanding for me. Excluding Buddhist discussion would take away the enormous insights that wonderful tradition has to offer. Furthermore, the Chinese have freely mixed Confucian, Daoist, and Buddhist views to the point that isolating each would be difficult indeed. The problem as I see it is primarily one of a few individuals who seem to thrive on debating and presenting their views in a way which belittles or intimidates or invalidates others' views. It is ironic that this has become a problem with some of our Buddhist members when the true practice of Buddhism is one of right speech, right action, compassion, and loving-kindness, among other things. This in turn often deteriorates to petty bickering or alienation of less "hardy" forumites who may have a lot to offer but get turned off. Or it is a problem where heated and esoteric sideline argument derails too many threads. It is important to see what is really happening here. When someone feels the need to argue so strenuously and impress their belief on others, it is a result of insecurity. When I am completely secure in my understanding, I have no need whatsoever to vociferously argue my position or impress it on someone else. I know it to be truth, nothing can change that, and I simply don't need to fight about it. I also know that I cannot cause someone else to see what I see. Your green and mine may be very different. Calling them green is only a verbal convention. When I have doubt or insecurity, even if (maybe I should say especially if) I don't recognize or acknowledge that consciously or publicly, I tend to be defensive, sensitive, demonstrative, and argumentative. I see this dynamic in operation everywhere in my daily life and work. So the people who argue so strenuously, are really doing so from a place of vulnerability and suffering. I've come to try and feel compassion for these folks. Rather than try to force them to accept my opinion or see my perspective, I try to help them see their own uncertainty in a non-threatening way. It's very tough to feel that the ground we stand on is not stable, it's a time for us to practice compassion and an opportunity for us to grow. It can be very frustrating and exasperating but that simply means it is an opportunity for us to learn to be more skillful. I doubt that a separate forum for Buddhist discussion would solve the problem or enhance the overall forum. In my mind, it's more about people being civil, compassionate, and growing. I would love to see this forum be a vehicle by which those of us serious about our cultivation can do so. And what better place to practice things like right speech, wu wei, loving-kindness, compassion, de, and so forth? Well, I guess the rest of our lives is a good place to but at least here we have an opportunity to interact with others of similar interests. I would challenge those among us who are prone to be overly argumentative and uncivil to try and elevate your level of skill in communication and debate. - Consider looking at what you write before posting, is there a way to say what you mean that will be supportive and enriching rather than destructive and hurtful? - When beginning the descent into an esoteric (or not) debate on theology and philosophy ask yourself if it belongs in the current thread or would be better served by starting a new thread so as to respect the OP's topic - When realizing that I am now in the middle of an argument or yet again bickering about the same old stuff, is it possible for me to practice mindfulness and right action enough to disengage? If I can't let it go, what does that say about ME? Is that worthy of some attention? I would challenge all of us to think of things like civility and compassion in our discussions. I believe that we are intelligent and aware enough that these considerations will not dilute the validity or value of our contributions. If we feel that civility and compassion prevent us from being able to say what we want or make our points adequately, what does that tell us about our method and skill in communication? I'd love to see this forum become a place where people become more skillful and civil in how they interact with each other and the best way for that to happen is for those willing to do so to set the best possible example. Sorry for the rant.

Thanks for your comments on my post - I have thought very much about the things you mentioned and more. - child mortality: with all of our technology, very high rates are still prevalent in poorer nations. Despite the availability of technology, we don't share it. We are still psychologically immature, greedy, selfish, so people suffer even though they live next door to a high tech hospital. One of the major problems facing us in the future is using up our resources. Why? Because we refuse to allow natural processes which establish and maintain balance and homeostasis in the natural world to operate. We fight that with technology. Why? Because we are afraid to die and shed this skin. Suffering is a result of the refusal to accept our current situation. That is what we use technology for. Look around you. Are people happy in our high tech society? I would argue that people tend to be much happier and content with their lot when their lives are untouched by technology. - Food and shelter: Technology and agriculture have certain changed these things but are we happier as a result? Agricultural technology has done a number of things 1. Foods are now genetically manipulated causing enormous shifts in allergies and illnesses 2. Providing famine and drought relief in desolate regions allows for overpopulation in areas that do not have the resources to support it. In that way, the more hungry people we feed in an unproductive region, the more the population grows, the higher the demand, etc... It's a vicious cycle that has led to human population being way out of balance with the environment. 3. Transition from hunter/gatherer to agrarian culture has led to the control of food/water as being the primary method by which groups of people exploit others. The US consumes about 25% of world resources and comprises less than 5% of its population. Local food producers often find that it is ILLEGAL for them to feed themselves and their neighbors by laws related to "free market" food trade and other nauseating, political tools of suppression. Finally, vegan or not, all living things exist by consuming other living things. Plants have spirit and awareness too, they're just further removed from what we can recognize and communicate with so we don't consider that. - Internet: Yes it's a wonderful tool. It is also a horrific tool. It is the primary means by which racist and far-right organizations, not to mention terror organizations communicate, plan, and execute their agendas. It is a widely used tool for pedophiles, rapists, and murders to stalk their prey. It is widely used to destroy lives through identity theft and the like. It is allowing us and our children to become progressively more socially withdrawn and isolated from our lives and our families. Don't misunderstand, I do utilize technology in my daily life and work quite a bit. And I appreciate and value it a great deal. I think it has a lot to offer. I also see it's dark side. It is Yin and Yang. And overall, it's my opinion, that it has done nothing to improve human happiness overall. Look at the simple lives of the few surviving indigenous cultures in the Amazon, Australia, New Guinea, etc... These folks are very happy and content with their low tech lives and, arguably, are less stressed and suffer less than their high tech counterparts. They probably have a shorter life span, higher infant mortality than some areas, and so on... However, they have accepted their natural lot and are living much more in balance with their environment. Those of us subsisting in a technologically supported environment don't realize how fragile the situation is. There will come a time, I believe, when our deviation from homeostasis will be so great, that Mother Nature will finally overcome our technological barriers and level the playing field once more.

I would agree with this. Qi cannot be pinned down to a biomechanical process or substance, IMO.

Are we better off today, because of technology? I'd say a simple no. My argument - I don't think that humanity, on average, is any happier, suffers less, is more awake, or more able to live in accordance with nature and each other as a consequence of technology. I don't see love and acceptance of ourselves, our situation, and others developing out of technology. Those criteria are how I would define "better off."

However, when we are still overly fascinated with objects, it is difficult to get much out of this practice. I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate...

My meditation is very productive at the beach. There is something about the environment that I can totally dissolve into. Also, being at the beach for me generally means vacation so I have a lot more time for meditation.

Hi Phore, Very nice post. I'd like to comment on the above point, however. Qi goes beyond breath and air. Ancient Daoists used separate characters. Air/Breath or Qi 氣 contains "internal energy" Qi 炁 but also lots of other stuff - mostly unwanted (according to my teacher) Breathing is also a process that allows us to extract Qi 炁 from Qi 氣 We also get Qi from other sources (prenatal, food, universal, etc...) The Qi itself, however, is a more subtle "energy/awareness/connection" that is beyond air or breath. Guiding the Qi through the bone marrow is not guiding air or breath through the marrow, for example. As I mentioned before, I personally have a bit of a different view of Qi than even my teacher but this is the more classic view that I've been shown and I think it is an important distinction that is not always clarified. Not everyone agrees with me on this - for example: http://www.buqi.net/en/articles/chi.htm I disagree with Dr. Shen's comments regarding Lishu - I've been taught that some Daoist texts and verbal transmissions do make a distinction between 氣 and 炁 .

Some musings about Shen and stuff: I've read a little about the more theoretical and analytical aspects but most of my understanding comes from practice. My teacher has always discouraged much reading and advised me that the same time spent only practicing would be much more valuable. So my ideas are my own and may or may not help you. Jing - sexual energy, semen 精 When I first started practicing Daoist meditation we learned the MCO. I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to be feeling for a while. One day I had a powerful perception in my lower pelvis that had the quality of the physical feeling of sexual stimulation. I began working with this and it opened the door to working with Qi. I think Jing goes beyond the sexual although the sexual methods and awareness are helpful tools in understanding it. Jing is the energy inherent in physical being, more or less, not only existing now but potential energy as well - hence, the reproductive component. It's very useful to look at it as the energy and "substance" of your physical body. Substance is just our perception of a specific pattern and level of energy, after all. Although, as your practice progresses, self and other become less distinct. Qi - air, breath, oxygen, energy 氣 or better yet 炁 Qi seems to be the interaction between Jing and Shen. It seems to be more a transaction - an awareness, a perception, and less any kind of substance. Looking at Qi as energy one can manipulate and contain doesn't ring true in my practice. Qi to me is more akin to tuning the antenna of my being to whatever animates me/it/us, connecting the physical experience to the mental experience. Working with QI is more about dissolving into the awareness of being and less about generating or storing a quantity of energy or stuff. It is a tuning of the Shen to the experience of the Jing. Those two communicate and interact through Qi. Shen - spirit, god, heart, mind 神 Shen was the most elusive of the three to penetrate. Shen is universal consciousness/awareness. It is also uniquely you. It is always there. It is generally very muddled and muddy. It can be refined, it can be uncovered through awareness. It is what is aware of Jing and Qi. It is what motivates Yi. It is very complex and absolutely the most basic and profound. Like refining Qi, the process of refining Shen has more to do with stripping away than with building up. Become aware in daily life and being to strip away patterns and conditioning. See what lies behind your ideas and assumptions, your expectations and desires. Strip away the bias. See what lies beneath all that and dwell there. Bruce Frantzis gives a nice discussion of some of this stuff in his meditation books. I don't think he has that much experience in so called "fire" methods of meditation as his description makes it seem much different from the "water" method he describes when they're nearly identical. The organization is a bit different but not so much the intent or method. Fire methods also involve dissolving, it's just a bit differently structured, that's all. Jing Qi and Shen are always already there. They interact freely with each other and Daoist cultivation is more about cleaning away the distractions and being able to experience them directly and participate in the process. So in order to develop Shen, I would suggest that you continue your practice of working with Jing and Qi and start to look at who is it that is working with JIng and Qi? What is the reason? How does this all happen? How do you react to different things in your life? What is under your surface? Start to look at who you are and why you are even interested in all this stuff. That should help you understand Shen a bit better. The Buddhists talk about the Mind / Dependent Origination / Emptiness - drop all concepts and methods and simply be and this is what is. The Daoist talk about the Way - a verb. Drop expectations and desires and do not interfere just do or do not do, and it is what is... Krishnamurti talks about Truth being a pathless land and choiceless awareness - drop the methods and rituals and choices and measurements. Let go all belief and have faith, which means that everything can be dropped and whatever remains is what is. Hope that helps somehow. Good luck

Well spoken! My advice regarding the OP would be standing meditation. Very natural and comfortable posture. Open all sensory awareness - total yin. Feel... When the mind gets distracted, let the content go, relax, smile, return to now... Just feel and smell and taste and hear... - everything inside and everything outside.. Try and gradually build up to practicing this for 20 - 30 minutes, for most it will take a few months to do it comfortably. I think this is a good basic foundation for discovering perception of "energy"