steve

Hi Joe, A few things that I like to recommend: 1. Writings by Jiddu Krishnamurti had a profound effect on me. Not what most would call meditation techniques per se, but rather a way of looking at the nature of things, in particular the nature of thought and what makes us tick (which is ultimately what meditation is anyway). He has many books in print. The one I like to recommend to those new to his work is "To Be Human." Another great book is "This Light in Oneself: True Meditation" which I feel really hits home regarding the nature of meditation - what most of us think it is and what it "really" is... 2. Anthony Demello - his book "Awareness" is a good place to start. Also, there is an 8 cd set of a workshop he gave which is phenomenal called "Wake Up to Life." Some video clips are available on youtube. Also, not what most would call instruction in meditation but rather a glimpse into the nature of our lives. 3. Peter Fenner - A friend turned my onto one of his cd's which is a superb introduction into the nature of meditation. Very no frills approach which I think is very effective and deceptively simple. Here is a link to his website - http://www.radiantmind.net/ 4. I'm sorry to say that I've yet to come across a print resource for Daoist practices that I think is worthwhile. My own practice is a Daoist method and I think a teacher is essential for these intricate and complex methods. One caveat - I find that different folks resonate with different approaches. Don't get discouraged. There are many paths. None has the answer - all have valuable clues and directions. Anyway - I wish you the very best of luck in your endeavor. What a beautiful way to enter into retirement! Feel free to contact me anytime if you want to chat about this stuff.

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My pleasure. Nice tip Mal

Boots Randolph! What a blast from the past. My dad was the accountant for Monument Records in the '60s and represented Boots and some other guys (Roy Clark, Ray Stevens, Herb Alpert). They used to send us all their new releases. Very nostalgic. Spirit - I still listen to The Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus regularly - When I Touch You

Voila! Pearl it is.

This has also been my experience. A somewhat subtle but seriously profound shift in something - call it awareness, consciousness, perspective? This is a very good question. What actually brings about such a change? Who can teach it? Is it something the "I" does? Is it a gift or a grace from God? Is it a consequence of having worked hard enough over multiple lifetimes..., or one? Is it nothing but just this, right here and right now? All of the great spiritual traditions have their own unique way of explaining it. None really have the answer - all answers, IMO, are gratuitous. You may choose one path or another, you may experience success on that path or not. I could tell you that I have had just such an experience and then list all of the things that I think helped me achieve that experience. In the first place, there is no way for you to know if my experience is credible or if it equates to any particular state of consciousness or attainment. Secondly, there is really no way for me to know if the activities or practices I engage in are what caused the experience to occur or not. So what is it that actually effects the change? Is it something "I" do or is it something that is done to or through "I"? It seems to me that the different spiritual traditions serve to prepare the individual to experience, accept, and handle the change. And proponents of those traditions will tell us that the traditions also directly effect the change. I'm not sure I buy that. Many stay on the path diligently and never experience it. And some seem to be awake without being a part of any particular tradition or practice. I have no answers, just questions. And the teachers that I have learned the most from have been those who have taught me to look for my own answers rather than those who provided me with their answers.

Nope

I just started Wonders of the Natural Mind: The Essence of Dzogchen in the Native Bon Tradition of Tibet - Tenzin Wangyal Others I've enjoyed are: Breath Sweeps Mind (a compilation of short chapters on meditation by a variety of authors) The MIracle of Mindfulness - Thich Nhat Hanh The Dhammapada Xin Xin Ming The Zen Teaching of Huang Po: On the Transmission of Mind - Blofeld Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - Suzuki Mind Beyond Death - Ponlop Dzogchen The Buddha Said - Osho - never read the whole thing but I periodically read a chapter or two and generally like Osho's approach Siddhartha - Herman Hesse

I like your ideas MH. If we're going to dedicate a sub-forum to the Zhuang Zi, I think it would make sense to approach it in a more organized and methodical fashion for study purposes. My opinion differs on this. None of us know anything about Zhuang Zi's personality. All we can do is make assumptions and reach conclusions based on our personal interpretation and understanding of his works. To me, it would make much more sense to actually start digging into his works and reach our own conclusions as our study progresses rather than have others bias us with their opinions before we even start the study. I have no objection to a concise introduction and we can also consider a topic about Zhuang Zi as a historical person and discuss our opinions of him there. But I would advise letting the work speak for itself, at least in the beginning. Just my opinion. LOL - I remember thinking exactly the same thing way back when I started the book club LIke I mentioned above, a topic to discuss Zhuang Zi would work as a place to introduce him and discuss historical knowledge of him, but I'd like to see us develop our own ideas through our study of his work, rather than be too distracted by what others think of his philosophy. PS I've always liked Thomas Merton's translations as well

I haven't gotten to the Bushmen part but it seems to me that this guy (Atkinson, Ramacharaka - whatever) learned this lesson of relative vs absolute. But it feels like he had direct experience that resonates deeply with my own experience. That's the connection I think m is referring to. I want to say back to him - Namaste _/\_ But it's still some white American guy who was a Baltimoron (as am I - born and bred) who was a product of his conditioning and not yet fully purged - are we ever?? anyone want to cast a stone? Every great guru who has lived within our lifetimes can be picked apart. It's only those beyond direct contact who are above reproach. So take it with a grain of salt, but I think the author (or whomever he copied from) had real cred.

I've played around with this idea of dying while remaining alive for several years so I'll share some thoughts which might qualify as some sort of formula for approaching it. It starts with who is dying and who is remaining alive? What is the "I" that needs to die? When that's gone, what's left? It took me a long time to figure out what the "I" seems to be and it's work you've got to do yourself (and maybe already have). But in a nutshell there are two components, I think, in very simplistic terms. There's the divine spark of awareness (whatever that is) and then there are all the layers on top of that - social and cultural conditioning, parental conditioning, memories, preferences, patterns of behavior - all of that. That's basically what "I" is. The divine spark is not "I" in the sense of the "me" that I know. That spark is beyond psychology and personality and all of that. I hesitate to put a name to it because every tradition comes to it differently. So when I think about dying while remaining alive, I look at the process as disassembling, dissolving, and letting go of all of that stuff that makes up "me." All of that conditioning and acquired stuff that makes "me" unique. And when I've done that successfully, what is left? There is still that divine spark, that something that is beyond what we can talk about and describe in words and images. But there is also value to the "me" stuff - it helps us move through life, keep a job, be effective participants in society, and so on. But it can be worse than useless when it comes to psychology, emotional maturity, spirituality, and that realm. For example, we make mental associations very quickly and easily that are exceedingly difficult to get rid of. They can be very helpful in terms of avoiding a threat or obtaining sustenance but in the psychological realm these associations are the source of anxiety, neurosis, attachment, and so on. To use a Krishnamurti approach, we need to identify and then let go of the images and associations that we have created. When I interact with another person or with the world in general, I am actually interacting with the image I've created of that other - constructed of assumptions, ideas, associations, thoughts that come from a variety of sources. Not only do I create an image of the other but each of us also has an image of ourselves - things we 'should' and 'shouldn't' do or be, preferences, assumptions, patterns, and so on. So the image I've created of myself is interacting with the image I've created of the other. So we never really interact with anyone - only our images. And these images are full of baggage taken from our ancestors, society, religious sources, and all kinds of things that may or may not be who and what we would choose to be. So Krishnamurti aims at getting at "true relationship" which means to progressively let go of the images we've created and actually interact directly. So he advocates to work at letting go of patterns, preconceived ideas, preferences and so forth. See the other person in each moment as if you've never seen or met them before. Bring this openness, this 'beginner's mind' to quote the Zen folks, to each and every moment of our lives. This is extraordinarily difficult in the beginning but gets easier with time and practice. So if I am completely new and fresh and open in each minute, what has happened to "me" ? "Me" is dead and each moment and each relationship is new, fresh, and alive. And he doesn't even ever tell us that this can be done. He never says that it's possible or that he's done it successfully. He simply invites each of us to consider for ourselves whether it is possible and desirable in our lives. We must find out for ourselves if it's possible. Anyway - just some random stuff to play with. But this takes enormous dedication. It's not a simple change you can make in your life then forget about. It is a constant activity, akin to mindfulness. It must actually become a central theme in our lives and, in effect, becomes a way to live. I see this as a way to define Wu Wei. By dropping all of the conditioned patterns that come from outside of "us" we can connect with, and not interfere with, our true nature. But this is an active process, as is Wu Wei. And in the Hindu Vedanta tradition it is the "I Am" state and in Dzogchen it is unconditioned awareness, and so on...

Wonderful post! Thanks for that, sun

Not only did I find it, it looks like it is no longer under copyright restriction and there are pdf's available on line, not only of this book but of the first course. First book - Fourteen Lessons in Yogi Philosophy and Oriental Occultism Second book - Advanced Course in Yogi Philosophy and Oriental Occultism Coincidentally, I have a book by the same author called Hatha Yoga, that my brother gave me years ago - excellent book as well!

As universal synchronicity would have it, very soon after reading hagar's post I came across these quotes in a book I'm reading (thanks Manitou!). Both seem to reflect that silence (or peace) that we can access as needed once we've tapped into the non-dual experience. I agree with Manitou that this is born of direct connection with the eternal. 1. Referring to the "peace that comes from within" which is the peace "of the awakened and conscious soul" that "nothing can disturb." "This state once attained enables a man to set aside a part of his nature into which he may retire when the troubles and strife of the outer life disturb him, and which immediately surrounds him with a peace "that passeth understanding," because it is beyond the realms of the understanding of the intellect." 2. "Establish for yourself a sanctuary of the soul, in which Silence reigns, and into which your tired soul may creep to rest, and recuperate. It is this peace to which the Yogis refer, when they say: "Peace be with Thee." And may it be with you all! And abide with you." from - Advanced Courses in Yogi Philosophy and Oriental Occultism by Yogi Ramacharaka

Thanks for sharing that hagar, very interesting description of your experience. I have had sort of a similar experience, not only as regards to silence but also a feeling of space. Sort of like the silence is on multiple sensory/experiential levels. For those who describe this as "experiencing the Tao," how is this different than all of the other experiences (sounds, sights, emotions, all of it)? Do you mean to say that this is Dao and all the rest is something else? Of course, Dao is defined as everything so whatever we experience can be called Dao but what does that really tell us about hagar's experience? It's just an empty word (but then again, so are all the others)...

वृत्ति सारूप्यमितरत्र ॥४॥ vṛtti sārūpyam-itaratra ||4|| Lacking that, misconceptions (vritti) skew our perceptions. ||4|| Vritti - turnings of the mind or modifications of the mind. I'm not sure I'd define vritti as misconceptions. So I look at this sutra as saying that when we are not resting in that state referenced earlier, that the turnings of the mind skew or color our preceptions.

So this is a good book! I've only just started but I'm finding it engaging and on point. Maybe it's just my interpretation but it seems to presuppose that the reader has some contact with the non-dual experience. Very cool stuff. More to come...

The path takes a lot of twists and turns. At some point it MUST lead inward. And once we start looking inward we will need to confront some harsh truths. This is where bravery comes in - if we are not willing to look through all of our masks, games, excuses, rationalizations, and justifications, we will make no progress. And it's really hard to look at ourselves stripped of all of our crutches and costumes. We can be pretty ugly. Part of this process involves the emotional experience. This has been a tough one for me because I adopted an extremely effective technique of emotional detatchment since childhood. It served me well in my work and other areas but there came a time when I had to also confront my emotional self. And it's taken a very long time learning how to do that. It's very difficult to begin to open up and feel powerful emotions after years of neglect. I think emotional mastery is primarily developing the skill of observing. Where do the emotions come from and where do they take us? What sorts of things cause us to respond and what is that response like? Is it appropriate? Is it advantageous? I think emotional mastery is to be able to fully experience the emotions and understand them to the point where we can learn from them and use them to our advantage rather than react to them like robots and be their slave, which is how most of us live most of our lives.

Exactly! Well said - this is what got all of Anthony DeMello's writings banned as heresy by the present pope while he worked as the official censor for the vatican. The early scriptures were a formula for individual study, enlightenment, and emancipation. Like in the Daoist canon, the writings can be interpreted at multiple levels and often require some expert guidance. Unfortunately, they are also easily misinterpreted and exploited for purposes of control and power as has been the case for millenia. A potential error for cultivators is to discard or overlook potentially valuable resources simply because others misinterpret and abuse them. PS Very sorry to hear about your horrific abortion experience. What a terrible thing. You never cease to amaze me...

You've convinced me - I just checked on Amazon and I can get a kindle version of the book for $4.99! I'll start reading it and we'll see where it goes. Sounds like fun. In terms of where to discuss, I'm up for anything.

I think they meet in us, in the individual. Each of us needs to find what makes sense to us and how to reconcile both in our minds and lives. It seems to me that the deeper understanding I have of each, the more similar they look...

I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes. I also like Watson's translations best. Everything you said above makes sense. One consideration - as we encounter some of the more famous excerpts in any given chapter we could consider looking at comparative translations of some of those isolated parables. That way we can benefit from seeing variations in interpretation and tranlation without plodding through multiple translations of an entire chapter.

Good luck to you Aaron - sorry to see you're struggling financially. I hope to see you back in the community soon. I enjoy many of your posts.

तदा द्रष्टुः स्वरूपेऽवस्थानम् ॥३॥ tadā draṣṭuḥ svarūpe-'vasthānam ||3|| For finding our true self (drashtu) entails insight into our own nature. ||3|| To move on - this may be the single most important statement in all of spiritual literature as far as I'm concerned. I am of the opinion that the only place we can find answers regarding the nature of our selves, our existence, our reality, are inside. We will not find answers in a book. We will not find the answer from another. We must do the work personally, and if we bring enough energy, dedication, awareness to the question, we will find something worth the investment. A simple way to the truth is to simply pay attention to everything. Everything inside of us and outside of us. Our behavior, thought patterns, emotions, psychological structures. We need to look at all of that very deeply. That's where the truth is - not in a book or even a place of worship.

Not much time to consider and comment just now but I do hope you will continue with this Manitou. Thanks - much to think about