steve

Or simply because the ice cream is more relevant to their lives.

Speaking as one who has been awed and literally and figuratively shaken to the core by the non-conceptual, this place gives me a very rare opportunity to share with others who can relate. The irony is that one reason I know my self is alive and well is through the camaraderie and validation I enjoy here. 😜😂 You can’t explain what I am referring to with ideas either. Yes, I do mix those up. For me the boundaries are often flexible or ambiguous. Ideas come and go with us. With individuals, with civilizations and cultures, with species. Your illustration is a good one. Ideas and illustrations are powerful, stories are powerful. They are much like deities and archetypes. And they are empty unless they give birth to manifestation. Even the manifestation is empty but that’s a dirty word so…. I’m leading a bit of an indulgent life, my dear. Lounging in the tub at the moment. Ideas can certainly heighten or spoil experience. are you thinking of me now? There is an appreciation for the skill, theory, and interpretation in art and nature, but there is the taste of a mango and then there are the chemical analysis and descriptions. And I will join you. But jejune without them… ? I beg to differ. Nothing is deeper and richer for me than silence. Talk often goes over my head too. I once signed up for a master class in guitar with a famous, now deceased composer/player, Roland Dyens. I prepared a complex and atonal piece but didn’t know his nemesis was the composer. When I finished playing he looked at me in disgust, paused for what seemed like an hour, during which time my inner critic was screaming - I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN, WHY DID I DO THIS, THIS IS MY FUCKING NIGHTMARE COME TO LIFE. And he said, “Too many notes! did you prepare anything else?” When I play and listen to music there is the experience and then there are the ideas and concepts and theories. This is especially pronounced when trying to compose. There is the shiver in my belly, and there are labels and analysis of that. Both are marvelous! For me, that relationship is the territory of practice.

(photo by Ed Oswalt) capturing the there and then in the here and now putting on a show interactive, collective my dog wants to play

I will be a voice of both dissent and agreement. There is so little discussion of the non-conceptual anywhere else on the web, for me at least, the amount that is present here is just fine, thank you. Frankly the non-conceptual doesn't require or even support much discussion. I find myself participating relatively little simply because the whole point of the non-conceptual is to avoid all of the imputation and misguided ideation often thrown at "it." It is most certainly not a "thing," but nothing could exist, including ideas and concepts, without "it." I am reading your song of the conceptual to the tune of "This Must Be the Place" by Talking Heads. Beautiful lyrics and melody and, despite my close connection with and appreciation for the realm of the non-conceptual, I appreciate and agree with your praise of the conceptual. In many ways it defines our "humanity," that which distinguishes us from other forms of life. I disagree here, ideas come and go and have no substance until implemented. They are as unenduring and insubstantial as fashion and movie critiques. I'll disagree here as well. That is simply the perspective of the one creating the ideas. That one(s) can only appreciate the realm of concept. One needs no ideas to fully appreciate a sip of wine, a Dali, or an orgasm. Certainly one can explore the conceptual aspect of fine wine, art, and human relationship but, for me at least, the conceptual aspect is no substitute for the sheer, unfabricated experience. Do organisms without conceptual, verbal ideation have no life worthy of the name? In my opinion, fwiw, all life is worthy of living whether capable of speech and ideation or not. Amen Full disclosure, I have been fully indulging in in the world of the conceptual of late. Partly it is unavoidable, living in a fast paced society with a fast paced and demanding job, and having dependents. After an extended period of being very focused and committed to non-conceptual practice I've let go of much of that scheduled and restrictive regimen. The practice is still there but far less structured and forced. Practice and living have coalesced, certainly not continuous by a long shot but relatively effortless. While the non-conceptual practice aspect reduces stress and reactivity associated with the conceptual aspects of life; there is more engagement with and appreciation for the full gamut - thought, desire, aversion, pleasure, ideas, and concepts alike. All of it precious.

Most likely an answer to an AI query or request...

I don't do too much quoting but here is one that I think is apropos from the very dear departed Anthony Demello: Waking up is unpleasant, you know. You are nice and comfortable in bed. It is irritating to be woken up. That’s the reason the wise guru will not attempt to wake people up. I hope I’m going to be wise here and make no attempt whatsoever to wake you up if you are asleep. It is really none of my business, even though I say to you at times, “Wake up!” My business is to do my thing, to dance my dance. If you profit from it, fine; if you don’t, too bad! As the Arabs say, “The nature of rain is the same, but it makes thorns grow in the marshes and flowers in the gardens.

I haven’t dated nor am I related to a trans-person. I have a friend who I’ve only known post transition. She is one of the most intrepid and courageous persons I know. Her transition seemed to free her to allow deeper parts to emerge. She travels continuously. She discovered she is a shaman and was initiated in Siberia. I can’t say I’m close enough to really know her intimately but I certainly feel the warmth of her connection to the source and feel grateful to know her. On a tangent, I just watched a film called Frybread Face & Me - beautiful and deeply moving film about a young “city Indian” sent to live with grandma on the Navajo rez. One theme is the boy’s gender ambivalence and experimentation. Highly recommended!

My understanding is that the objective of the mystical arm of Catholicism, the Jesuits, at least is to go beyond belief or obedience and to become as Christ was. To embody his teachings as fully as possible in this life. I base this on teachings from an enlightened Jesuit master, Anthony Demello, one of my favorite spiritual voices.

Hey, now that we're back at my place I hope you don't mind but I've got a doctor here and a videographer to make sure this is the real deal!

It’s not just your opinion or even that of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and Bönpos. It is also completely consistent with the theories and experimental results of the most powerful and predictive paradigm in the history of physics. The act of observation by an observer (duality) collapses the wave function of probability (unbounded potential) into an object, having an unavoidable effect on the observation (reality). My samsaric existence is that of unbounded awareness being bounded by a set of perceptive faculties and interpretation in a living entity/community. When “I” am actively engaged I am creating reality. Buddha is the unbounded, undefined potential embodied when we are not limited by the role of observer. The observation is occurring but the perspective is not restricted by a particular frame of reference, no subject-object duality. This can become the primary abiding state of “mind.” The extreme is to dissolve in a rainbow of light. This is elegantly captured in the Four Goodnesses teaching of Tapihritsa in the Bön tradition. I love the intersection between spirituality and scientific endeavor - physics, biology, systems, etc…

I strongly disagree, far better to quickly skim over a healthier breakfast than fruit loops! edit - sorry but I skimmed over Apech’s response regarding fruit loops…

That’s the thing about reality, acceptance doesn’t matter. PS - I’m not a Buddhist

My view is that you make it real. Yes, you Apech 🥴 Our finely tuned perceptive faculties evoke reality from unbounded potential. Void relates to unbounded and undefined, the base, wu ji. We provide the boundary and definitions in relationship with our environment and give birth to each moment of reality. It is yours alone, we only agree on so many fronts because our faculties are similarly tuned.

haiku by shenlung inspire’ing to the senses to spirit and wit

The disco at the end of the Rainbow

I wish I had good answers to this question. There are a few very dear people in my life who struggle mightily with these feelings. The first thing I would suggest is to look at the inner judge, the inner voices, thoughts, and feelings that tell the story of your inadequacy, your weakness, any story really. It may need to be taken on faith in the beginning but those inner voices are not who you are. They are flotsam and jetsum you've picked up from parents, ancestors, teachers, bosses, society, media and anyone else with a tendency to belch and fart opinion. More importantly, they have no particular authority or special insight, just passing thoughts and feelings. Who you really are at your core is so much more than that! One practical approach is to thank that inner judge for his concern for your welfare, to give him a warm, luminous hug and reassure him that you are OK just as you are. While his criticisms probably have some merit they are only a very small part of your story and your potential. Every weakness, every inadequacy can be seen as a failure and an obstacle or as an opportunity to grow and to refine yourself. In taiji we often say "invest in loss" because only loss shows us where we are in need of practice. The areas where we are strong don't need work. Anthony Demello says 'pleasant experiences make life delightful but painful experiences are opportunities for growth.' So my advice is to not take that self-judgement and self-deprecation too seriously, they are passing thoughts and feelings that show you a very limited picture. They are largely a slime trail of social and cultural conditioning that can be useful but often becomes dysfunctional. While they do not need to be suppressed or ignored, they also need to be put in context and taken with a grain of salt and a generous helping of humor. You will die and everyone and everything you love and care about will be gone. If that were to happen next week, what would you want this week to look like? Warm wishes to you

I resonate with your response as well. All states of mind can teach us something about ourselves. Boredom is no exception.

Sorry to intrude but spiritual practices are boring because you’re not doing anything else. If meditation is boring do it with Netflix or a nice meal. Do it with your partner and when you floss. One caveat. When you bring it off the mat, boredom is replaced by frustration, so like they says, no one said it was easy to break the cycle of rebirth.

I think it’s a great question. I don’t have an answer nor enough education to feel good about an opinion. Bön teachings touch something in my heart, from my first contact. Buddhist masters often speak more to my mind. The Bön teachings I’ve received have been heavy on metaphor, parable, and pith and there’s a close human connection. In Buddhism I’ve mostly read Longchenpa, and a handful of others, with no personal connection, so it’s likely just selection bias on my part. I think individual teachers are an equally significant factor. The old and new are syncretic as are the individual traditions at this point.

Kyoji has been suspended from the site for 1 week for offensive and disrespectful posting. Future infractions will result in a longer and possibly permanent ban.

Very interesting perspective. I wonder if Bön teachings and practice give us a sense of early Buddhism?

Well the point of dzogchen is that it is the method of no-method. You already are the essential nature of all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Many people have disagreed with the idea historically but fortunately awakening doesn’t depend on anyone’s agreement.

… or nailed up, in his case.

Actually, it is possible to nail down Buddha Nature. There is a teaching on precisely this point in Bön called The Twenty One Nails. Each “nail” is a teaching on one aspect of Buddha Nature intended to support realization. When we “get it” we gain a degree of irreversible certainty in our view and practice that is the basis for using the “nail” metaphor. On the dzogchen path, the most important step is to develop certainty in the view and practice, to nail it down. This is the meaning of direct introduction.

I agree one can cultivate spirit through prayer, ritual, and study, whether in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Daoism, etc... That said, for me at least, the meditative practices I've learned in Bön and Daoism were far more direct and effective than ritual, prayer, or study. I think this is a very personal thing. I once read a wonderful book about the subject called The Jew in the Lotus by Rodger Kamenetz. It explored the phenomenon of Jewish predominance among Western practitioners of Eastern religion, Buddhism in particular. One of the points it made was that between the desire of Jews in diaspora to fit in and avoid drawing attention to themselves and the widespread slaughter of masters of esoteric practice in the Holocaust, relatively little of the mystical aspects of Judaism have survived intact and what has is difficult to access. This was suggested as one reason why so many Jews gravitate to Asian spiritual traditions.