Apech

wind in deep winter many helpings of bean soup silent but deadly.

Check your neck posture and maybe get some massage.

JK, Thank you for your kind offer but the demands of the rest of my life would prevent me traveling to China. I didn't realise that the book was intended as a 'Rosetta Stone' and I would say if so, it is only partly successful, although it is a very interesting book - hence my original question. All I was after was a bit more background and people have been most helpful. I don't really follow your point about schools. I didn't go to school in the US although I did spend some time there when I was younger. I don't think I would struggle to follow the 186 rules though - except perhaps the one about keeping warm in winter and cool in summer, we have the coldest winter for 60 years here although signs of a thaw today! A7.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. The oldest extended corpus of written religious writing in the world is the Egyptian Pyramid Texts (~2300/2400 BC) of King Unas (or Wenis). In these texts are ideas which are clearly older and given how developed they were when first written and that they come towards the end of the pyramid building age must stretch back at least to around 3000 BC. The Four Sons of Horus as a) guardian spirits of the major organs of the body, b ) four aspects of the construction of the cosmos and c) the four rudders of heaven are the antecedents of the what was later to be incorporated into Babylonian/Hellenistic zodiacs and so on which led to the four beasts and the four elements. In other words it was a consistent theme in the tradition of thinking which came from the ancient world through places like Alexandria and was preserved in traditions such as western alchemy and Hermeticism. Every valid system of thought/symbolism of this kind is developed in a way which internally self consistent. They are models which allow us to reflect on the nature of reality. Where problems emerge is when trying to read across from system to system - this is because each 'element' in each system makes sense in the context of that system. The idea of 'metal' as an element or 'stage of change' did not exist as an explicitly stated function in the west and so it was not the case that it was dropped, left out or forgotten. Yep ... I think that's an interesting analysis.

Sorry no. The Western Four Element system has its origins in Egypt and the Four Sons of Horus later developed by influence from Mesopotamia and then Greek thought. I'm not saying no influence from Silk Route but that was later and Alexandria was only constructed towards the end of the history of Egypt. They didn't lose metal it was never an element. There are correspondencies between the two systems but you can't read across like that. One interesting comparison though is where earth is placed centrally. In Western Hermetics the substance produced by the perfect harmony of the Four Elements is the Philosophers Stones (secret of immortality amongst other things).

quite like clouds really... but hate that bastard called fog... Mist? Not forgotten.

A snowflake perhaps? And an icicle or two? Frozen things are free.

First of all - I am grateful for Taomeow and Stig for spending time on this discussion. I have learned a lot already. Obviously there are specific arrangements of both the 'elements' = 'stages of change' and of the trigrams which have specific applications. For instance the Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven pa-k'ua. If anyone is interested the book which I quoted originally "Cultivating Stillness" has diagrams showing the transformation of the trigrams from Earlier to Later Heaven ... heaven to fire and earth to water and so on. Obviously also, the development of understanding of the process of change is key. The subject matter is 'how does a non-dual source through a process of interaction of its own inherent qualities generate an apparently dual world' - or that's how I would put it. In terms of my original question - this is about reading the Wuji diagram from top down - the generation cycle of the 10,000 things. The way I explain this to myself is that as a being in this world and yet of a spiritual nature I deal both with the inner truth of the nature of spirit/the absolute/Tao and also with the (what I would call) devolved or perhaps evolved world. This world has qualities such as fire and water which exhibit themselves in cycles of change and development. However what I am more interested in is the internal alchemy route of bottom to top. And specifically the part of the diagram which shows the 'elements' arranged as they are. I am thinking here that by understanding the function of the five within myself an bringing them to a state of harmony then what arises is a state of transformational stillness. This is indicated by placing earth in the centre. Any thoughts?

be 'low' like water... reflect light like mercury here there is thunder.

Found it! Huang ting Apparently it is as elusive as you described: "The first problem associated with Huang Ting, however, is locating it - tucked away as it is in a less-trafficked fourth-floor corner of The Central, a maze-like building with a layout that is guaranteed to confound first-time visitors. Once you get there, however, the restaurant does offer pleasant views of the Singapore River and Clarke Quay." That's very mysterious! Can you give clues a la Da Vinci? (Sorry about above posts - feeling rather flippant, I think its the cold weather seeping in.) Is it not the case that one could postulate any of elements as the beginning of cycle as long as you are clear about what you are doing and what it signifies? In the Wuji diagram layout I think the central harmonizing position of the earth is the whole point given the nature of the progression of the alchemical process. This would be because it is dealing with how the individual mind/perspective is involved in the process.

Well I suppose we could start a Boethian (sp?) joining faith and reason thread/ or a Plotinus 'flight of the alone to the Alone' kind of a thing? Sufism is embedded in Islam ... and like many (all?) mystical traditions they seem to reflect the culture which they inhabit ... but it is very much a sort of in Islam and not of Islam kind of a relationship ... hence Dr. Nurbakhsh's rather dismissive answer to that question 'is it God?'. I see mystical thinking as inherently radical but keeps its head down because it knows no masters and more importantly does not want to master others. I don't want to get into the Islam is nasty thing because I think that's a bit daft ... but I agree with your argument that you cannot use Sufism to defend Islam because its so not mainstream. The other thing you cannot do, IMHO is to create your own kind of New Age universalized version of Islam which is not in accord with the mainstream and say well ... that's real Islam, the other stuff is not ... when millions and millions follow the other stuff and almost no-one agrees with your own interpretation. With regard to the 'no words' the world is crazy stuff ... well I think its easy to misunderstand this as saying don't bother to think and so on. That is not what is being said at all.

No. 5. God talked to Buddha G: Hi B: Go away! You don't exist. G: Don't be like that, I created you after all. B: No you didn't. G: Listen mate, do you know who I am? B: Om. G: Om? is that yes or no? B: Its the sound of one hand clapping. G: *thinks*(this guy's a loony) B: Hey! I heard that! G: I worked my butt off creating this world and I didn't do it so some ungrateful sod can be rude when I drop by. B: Oh yeah! And I didn't sit under this tree for this long just waiting for you to come along. G: Dick! B: Moron! G: Bitch! B: Time waster! G: Right! That's it! B: That's what? What you going to do about it, eh? G: I'm going to really mess you guys up. B: How? G: I'm going to create the internet and put TheTaoBums on it, so you guys do nothing but post on there for the rest of eternity. B: Shit! G: Stick that in your dharma matey. Ha, ha, ha. Come on Jesus we're outta here.

Taomeow, Thanks for your comments - are you sure about this last point????? A7.

Partly yes.

of the ways to peace... I prefer war. As in life - the wicked don't rest.

For what its worth I think you may have missed the point here but I don't want to start a sub-thread within an already sub-thread or whatever so I'll just say he was a nice old guy who's now dead and completely free of nuance

Hi Stig! Thanks for that ... I knew you would know something of this. Is the arrangement of elements standard? Or is this a specific to this school do you know? I also like the business of reading it 1) top to bottom (creation) 2) bottom to top (cultivation) this is excellent a mirrors something I have been working on all last year. Cheers A7. I think the central soil = earth = heart center ?????? or perhaps heart/mind is better.

Bumping my own thread. Where is Stig when you need him. I have extracted some notes on the diagram. If anyone knows any more please post link(s). Thanks A7.

I thought it was interesting for two points in relation to what was being said on here. At one point he talks about the zero that is infinity (and visa versa) and the woman interviewer says "is that infinity god?" (or similar) - and he says that you should go to the mosque for an answer to that (later agreed or church as 'it doesn't make a difference). This is not what a Muslim teacher would say as they are all about Allah after all. Secondly, despite spending his whole life in the field of psychiatric medicine he completely dismisses this as well. Also throughout the interview there was no hint of a sales pitch or any kind of suggestion that anyone should become a Sufi ... he just said that he himself 'stumbled upon it' and that if you were meant to be a Sufi you would. NB. I would just add that although I met him once and was impressed I was and am not a student of his and do not particularly think that anyone should follow him but just look at him and compare with others.

no steam, no hot tea! shout loudly at your cold friends, just to break the ice.

as the gong shudders... breakfast at the monastery bitter sweet tea steams.

I'm interested in this idea of Sufism within Islam. I've posted this link before but I really think its worth watching this interview - Dr. Nurbakhsh (despite his medical and academic qualifications clearly distances himself from science and also at one point distances himself from the 'church'.) I think that certainly his view places Sufism as distinct. Last interview Dr. Nurbakhsh This is part of his CV: "After obtaining his Psychiatric degree from the Sorbonne, Dr. Nurbakhsh was appointed professor of psychiatry at the Tehran University school of medicine, a position which he held until he retired, along with that of director of the Iranian Medical Council, president of the Iranian Association of Psychiatrists, and head of the Ruzbeh Psychiatric Hospital. He was also an honorary member of the American Psychiatrists' Association. He produced 37 scientific works in the field of psychiatry, as author, editor and translator, along with many articles in scientific journals and a compendium of instructional brochures for the use of researchers, professors and students. Throughout his life Dr. Nurbakhsh wrote extensively on Iranian gnosis and Islamic Sufism. Besides publication of his prolific writings, including biographies of the masters of the path and the principles of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order, he also sponsored numerous international conferences and seminars, the papers of which have been compiled in three compendia in English."

No there is some elucidation in the book but I was wanting more.

pretty to look at... arranges plastic flowers... then throws them away.