Apech

MH, Its a real joy to read this ... so profound and direct to the point. It just makes you sit and think 'that's perfect!' As usual thanks for posting. John

Can the 3rd Eye be heaven I'm not sure but could you explain a bit more?

I've come back because it seems a little calmer now. I am still thinking that the Ontological essence is perhaps Heaven and not Tao. But we do not have a good definition of Heaven or even worse we have the confusion of Christian Heaven - which is a different idea altogether I would suggest. How does a Taoist define Heaven? Heaven conforms to Tao and is quite like Tao but also is seen as the ordering power to which Earth conforms.

Yep. I can't believe I've just logged on and this thread is just one long bickering row about Buddhism. I didn't read it all because I was loosing the will to live. See you later guys and I hope to read some interesting ideas.

lopsided Van Gogh... well its hard to stand up straight with only one ear!

Could it be that this once lofty and interesting thread has descended into everyone pointing out each others shortcomings. Leave me out because the list would be very long. I was thinking about this: Hope you get my drift. As Marbles would say - Peace and Love!

Thanks Marbles ... that '3 in 10' thing has become 'the 13' in this one. Here is the Legge version : I still don't quite get that and its obvious that most of translators don't get it either (?). For me the interesting bit is the end where the tiger and rhino can't harm him because 'there is in him no place of death'. This is like an ultimate form of self-defense. It makes me think of the Japanese swordsman who instead of attacking the opponent looks for a gap in their defense and attacks that. Looks for an opening. If there isn't one ... then he cannot harm his opponent. In the 13th Warrior film clip the man wins by presenting a false opening which his opponent attacks. The opponent is unguarded in this moment and so looses the fight. The one who moves first tends to loose - this is a kind of rule of combat (maybe).

The evening's chill, Sharp stars in the indigo, Diamonds on velvet.

Would also like to add this Chapter from LZ No. 50 I think I understand it but not entirely sure ... anyone got any thoughts?

Great wisdom Cat ... in a different way the weak dominate the strong who's instinct is to be generous and helpful. It always brings to mind the last scene of my favourite film 'The Seven Samurai' ... when the leader says that its not them (the samurai) who have won but the farmers (who were needy and helpless for most of the film). Seven Samurai last scene

A Seeker - that's a nice one Summer in the hills Trees line the purple shoulders The hot air shimmers.

due back tomorrow... armed with exotic fruit how far will mango?

Hi Starjumper, I do not have a cheering section - if people choose to agree with what I say then that's up to them. My words are not either politically correct or kind. People do bar themselves from the truth by their own confusion and ignorance. I do not rejoice in this fact or throw it as an accusation against others. It is unnecessary and a matter for regret. Just that.

You may take a short period of rest after you have swept the dojo! :lol:

I have to say I cannot imagine any good Taoist saying that people are spiritually handicapped. When LZ talks about the 'lowest type' I think we have to accept that there are a lot of people for whom the Tao holds no interest. Also it takes a kind of spiritual maturity to understand the Tao ... which by the way I would guess most of us have only to a small degree. People laugh at the Tao also because its simple and kind of earthy in its expression and some people want great truths to be elaborate and grandiose. This is only because they are confused by b/s and pretension. The main thing for me is I cannot ever imagine being pleased or happy that people are excluded from understanding in this way. For my part, although I don't really want to have much to do with many people in this world, I wish them all happiness and enlightenment. I don't mind people who have a different view to me - in fact I welcome it. Its good to talk about all this stuff and I always try to remember that at least people on here are interested in some way or another - while most people in the world seem to have worldly and selfish interests. Just thought I'd say this.

Thing I learned in Aikido - if you are open, relaxed and responsive (which looks vulnerable) you are more powerful than being rigid and muscular. Most spiritual traditions have something like this ... in Buddhism (dare I mention it) 'give victory to the other' of mind-training. By seeming to loose you win and so on.

to exchange for peace... I offer the crumbs of wrath more angry than grapes.

What do you mean by spiritually handicapped? And why do you think it good that some people cannot comprehend the Way? This seems an odd position to take to me.

I could go with that as long as its not meant to be definitive or exhaustive.

Give it up - this is called a conversation.

Hey I didn't know they had TaoBums threads in those days! Ha ha. Excellent as ever - thanks for the wisdom.

Do you mean singularity as in black-hole? I would only ask what 'before' would mean when there is no time or at least no time as we experience/understand it.? I don't think there is any origin - just ... process or something ... think of a word ... I don't know its name so I call it Tao (sort of thing).

Well ... I had to look that up ... but no ... I do not think Tao=Spanda ... and I don't get why you think that.

LOL Mr. Cow your life seems very stimulating ... make sure you get enough rest .... scattered near toaster... can't believe its not butter double negative.