Apech

Hands off my pussy!

Gee thanks.

captured, unfolding the emerging butterfly is cupped in my hand.

You are right about the danger of course Stig but I wasn't doing what you suggest i.e. fitting one body on another - although I understand why you think I was. I don't want to derail your thread with this but I just wanted to make this point. Cultures generally have what you might call a cosmological view on how the universe is constructed. It is this to which both the I Ching and Lao Tse refer when they make statements about the nature of things. It does not mean that one work derives or depends on the other.

Oh gee Vaj are we all damned? I'm not sure that our salvation or enlightenment depends that much on our philosophical view. You are right, in my view, to distinguish between the Buddhist view and the Vedanta view - they are different - well if they were the same why would we have two systems and not one? But I am not sure that the consequences of either view are as you suggest. You sound a little, if I may say, like a born again Xstian at this point ... "Only I will be saved!" etc.

They definitely want global economic regulation - they said so after the credit crunch in 2008 - that is the sub-text of all that is going on with the G20, the Eurozone, the Dollar and the emerging countries.

Hi Stig, I've just been rereading Lynns translation with Wang Bi commentary - this is the book I studied all summer This one. Anyway I think I am wrong now - because Wang Bi apparently had access to a version (Mawangdui A. and B.) which is translated thus: So instead of having 'heaven and earth' and 'myriad things' it just repeats 'myriad things'. So the distinction is lost but not the meaning. The distinction is then between 'origin' and 'mother'. But I can still reconstruct what I was thinking from this. I am seeing Heaven as a field of pure yang - that is a luminous infinity whose light gives order. And I am seeing Earth as being the receptive (dark) substance that gives and sustains life - pure yin. The Tao then as origin is Heavenly and as 'mother' is Earthly. This is the underlying structure of the universe - but it is not the empirically observed universe because we do not perceive pure energy or pure substance we perceive mixtures or interactions >>> the 10k things. So referring to the Great Treatise (I am reading Wilhelms translation) the Earlier Heaven arrangement of the Trigrams places Ch'ien (the creative) opposite K'un (the receptive). This is saying that the primordial nature of the Tao is expressed like this - it appears both at once as an infinite field of light energy (Heaven) and the infinite substantial field of power which underpins all existence (Earth). (The other trigrams express other qualities but it would get too complicated to go into these.) The Earlier Heaven arrangement expresses the primordial nature and is thus 'unknowable' in the ordinary sense - while the later heaven arrangement is more experiential - which is why fire opposed water rather than heaven and earth. Now it is said that the origin and the mother arise together. That is there is no origin until there is a mother and visa versa ( a chicken and egg thing!?!). So we could say that because the Tao has this unknown/unknowable aspect (its true name cannot be spoken) it can be viewed as an origin - and because it allows/facilitates knowing/naming it is also a mother. I hadn't thought of the Hexagrams but if you look at those formed from Ch'ien and K'un they are 11. Peace and 12. Stagnation - in one the creative and the receptive come together in union = peace and in the other they move apart = stagnation (or perhaps barreness or non-productivity). Forgive the ramble (it makes sense to me!!! ha ha).

I think I am right then I think it means Heaven and Earth in the I Ching sense of the trigrams.

We're not very gay are we.

Hi Marblehead and Manitou, A great message and I can really relate to those personal comments. It is my impression that the world is getting faster and faster and people more and more busy. Its as if they are desperate to rush from one distraction to the next. Today in the UK they have announced the royal wedding of what's-his-name to his girlfriend. The News channels have gone hyperactive - I am sure there will be some spill over to the other side of the Atlantic. There will be months and months of endless nonsense and speculation ... this sums up the modern world to me. Yours gloomily, Apech

I agree its neater to stick to the form - even though it gets a bit tricky ... if we abandon it ... we might as well have a free-form poetry thread (which would be ok but this one should stick to 5,7,5 IMO).

You say just to be happy - as if this were an easy thing or a low ambition - I think finding true happiness is a very profound and sometimes difficult thing - an achievement in itself. I'm mean happiness and not just pleasure seeking by the way. Some would suggest the point of life is to seek liberation but this to me presupposes that you feel the need to be released from prison somehow. Others might say it is to do with gaining wisdom or power. I would say the purest expression of the purpose of life is that it is an opportunity to explore the possibilities inherent in being. These are infinite I believe and are like a vast undiscovered country full of opportunity. To go there you have to drop the small minded view based on greed, jealousy and hate.

I think this may be something to do with the English language as it is forcing 'the unknown' into being a thing. As if there is something called 'the unknown' which gives rise to heaven and earth. Perhaps nameless is better after all? I know what I want to say about this but its difficult to express - I am going to think and post later. Cheers A.

You haven't got this Haiku thing sussed have you.

squirrels and bluejays, who says nature's under threat? two animals left.

Yes! My favourite movie along with Kurasawa's Seven Samurai. I liked David Carridine as well ... also The Water Margin ... and Monkey Magic.

I'm a literati Daoist ... I couldn't remember what I said before so I deleted my vote and did it again.

Stig, There's a big difference in English between saying 'unknown' = adjective and 'the unknown' = noun. I think the sense is this: the Tao encompasses both all that is unknown and all that is known and whether it is known or not is dependent on naming. So if you consider absolute reality and say 'these parts (although technically it has no parts) I can name and this is the known, the rest is infinite potential to be (maybe) and this is the unknown.' Whether something is known or not is contingent on naming. Naming being about defining form and function or perhaps applying an appropriate term.

Maybe it says "No Smoking" or "Keep off the grass". ?

Wonderful film - thanks for sharing it - I really enjoyed watching it. Beautiful photography and well informed comments from the scholars. Made my day. Thanks again.