Apech

Just got back from a weeks break myself. Funny thing is I really missed being on here! Who needs family when you have TTBs all over the place? Have a good break Marbles hope you enjoy yourself. A.

I think that the ideas and techniques of Taoism were first developed when we were hunter/gatherers and that what we now tend to call shamanism was the universal way in which man related to spirit. People then as now would only value these things if they were actually useful in some way. For instance if they made the hunt better or the knowledge of edible plants and their habitats made gathering easier. This would be based on a sensitivity or oneness with nature and its ways. In hunter/gatherer communities only about 30% of time is spent either hunting or gathering which leaves plenty of time for creativity and so on - but because these people do not live in settlements (or not all the year anyway) the kind of developments which we call civilization could not develop - this has led to the misapprehension that these early people were not cultured, knowlegable or sophisticated. When man started to live in fixed communities and used farming to supply their food there was a 'sudden' emergence of many of the things we see today ... even mass production of bread and beer in the Nile valley for instance and of course things like writing and architecture. Clearly at this time the kind of wisdom and knowledge which people would value changed. To cultivate plants for food is risky business and the life cycles of the plants and the effects of the seasons have to be properly understood. No longer can you just up and move on if there are bad times. At this time life ironically became more of a struggle, risk of famine arose because of heavy dependence on the weather conditions. Whole civilizations collapsed or changed radically when volcanoes, tsunamis and so on upset the natural rhythm which arable food production relies on. Life expectancy dropped and infectious diseases emerged. So value was placed on health and cultivation. The sages changed their emphasis to reflect the world in which they lived. At both times they could live in accordance with the Tao and cultivate Te - the way it was expressed changed, that's all.

Thank you for taking the time to comment Marblehead.

Would it be nice? Its not meant for entertainment you know.

I think you may have misunderstood the moderation rules. The relevant ones are no racism and no insults. We do not judge whether people are bad or not - that's impossible on here and is a common mistake among some posters who start attacking the person as if they know them, rather than the ideas. This is when they fall foul of moderation because they usually, through frustration or whatever start to give out insults. A good example is where you at the beginning of this post - where you decided to reply to Steve (and not to me for some reason) by saying stop being a baby. How do you know he is being a baby? - maybe he's just exercising free will in deciding not to engage with you anymore. As far as I know moderation actions are made for either blazingly obvious reasons or are explained. So no problem there at all. The Mod Team are discussing if there is a need to take action - not sure how long this will take given different time zones etc. Apech for Mod Team

*** Moderator Message *** Well I guess I should respond directly to this appeal. I'm sorry that this discussion has come to this as I was enjoying reading it. I felt that people were actually putting energy into debate rather than insult. I assume the problem is the phrase "crazy, disgusting Jews in Israel" and is this statement either an insult or a form of racism. I had taken it to be an anti-Zionist sentiment on behalf of GiH or perhaps a criticism of their policy/activity of taking land off the Palestinians, erecting defensive (?) walls round Jerusalem and so on. As they are included with our ex-friend/fiend Mr. Bin Laden I think it is the extremist fundamentalist outlook which GiH is against and that he is not being antisemitic. Obviously I don't know if I am right about this unless GiH himself would like to clarify what he meant. Since I think an antisemitic comment would not be acceptable and we would have to moderate it - I am appealing to GiH to clear this issue up. Then I hope you will both be able to continue your illuminating discussion on peer review and challenges within science and religion. I will wait a short while, as there are time differences (I am in Europe) before doing anything else. Thanks. **** Apech for Mod Team ****

As in: - "I came out here to forget." - "Forget what?" - "I can't remember ...." PS. I wish I could forget more sometimes .....

Only sometimes? Well that's a start. I don't think of myself when moderating. I remember a long PM exchange with you where all I was asking you to do was stop saying 'fuck you' to everyone. You refused. There is an insult policy. Its not hard to understand really. If you insult people you may get suspended ... that's it ... nothing else.

There is very little permanent banning mostly only suspensions of varying times - which means people come back automatically at the the end of the period. 99.9% of banning is spammers - which unless you want to read through endless movie downloads, porn and payday loans is necessary. The other 0.1% are people who deliberately are trolling or perhaps multi-posting under different screen names in order to distort conversations or to influence others to come to an opinion about something which is to their advantage in some way - as with political spin doctoring - or something similar and have usually been through a few suspensions first before the whole thing becomes a time wasting exercise. The no insult policy is the main ground for any action and I think the conversation here reflects well what Sean wanted from that. To me its about cultivating good conversation - and I think that is Taoist.

A lot goes on behind the scenes and we discuss each case before action - unless its spam or whatever. No one likes suspending or banning people ... and it does get a bit dull when certain people are not around ..but that's the way it is. if you can think of way to make it clearer what's ok and what's not then that would help.

This question does not compute ... my programming does not include diagnostics ... MessageEnd. Bleeep.

We do fire warning shots. BoL had a 7 days suspension to cool off after a long discussion between mods. he came back and right away starting insulting .... so I sent him this: He did change that post - some mods thought he should have got a longer suspension right away for that - but anyway he continued and then insulted manitou which got him a longer suspension. We are trying to do this in a way which makes people more respectful. BoL stimulated a lot of conversation - some of which was interesting - all he had to do was not to insult others. For someone who claimed to be about to renounce the world that's not a lot to ask. Apech

I read this three times I4L and it didn't make any sense unless you are agreeing with Marblehead. You are not alone on here in not agreeing with evolutionary theory ... but your arguments and examples do not undermine the science in the way you think they do. This is because I don't think you have understood what the scientific position is in the first place. For example your say this: Neither of these statements make any sense at all and seem to attempt to knock down arguments which science has not made in the first place.

Steve, I think that maybe at least part of the 'answer' is that ultimately cultivation of all sorts if done properly i.e. completely, will inevitably lead to a realisation about the nature of reality. This could be true even of the murderer ... if he/she studies the art of murdering to the nth degree, to fully comprehend the nature of the art and its consequences then I wonder how many people they would actually murder. I know this sounds an amoral argument and, unless you are a ninja I suppose (?) not one that I would recommend for anyone but its an interesting thought study. There is a concept of prodigality in Christian thinking which almost leads you to say that those that go down these dark paths are somehow more blessed when they return. Ultimately you could say that any path, if followed properly leads to the Tao, no matter what it is. However out of choice you would choose a path with heart or perhaps being a gentle gardener.

Nice post Stig. I've been growing potatoes, beans, onions and other stuff this year ... well I do the donkey work under direction of wiser minds to be honest but your comments ring true to me. I'm thinking that all nature is Dao but cultivation is specifically the cultivation of Te. So you could say the wilderness is as much Dao as the garden but the garden has this specific thing added - the wisdom of the gardener who enhances what nature provides. Similarly we could live and die ... and that would still be Dao is some sense ... but if we cultivate ourselves (and I include philosophy as well as energy work by the way) then we are like the gardener.

I think you are exactly right about this. On a forum you are (mostly) talking to someone who you have never met. You have no idea about their state of mind or feelings. For instance you can't pick up things like sarcasm and humour because the tone of voice isn't there. If you start attacking the person and not the content of the post then not only could it be unjustified but also plain wrong. Its very easy when typing to make mistakes which change the whole meaning of the post. One of the good things about TTBs is that people will quickly challenge ideas if they think they are wrong. I don't see any reason why this can't be done while also respecting the other poster's right to their opinions. Insults always seem to make the quality of debate degenerate into a slanging match ... which is as unproductive as it is tiresome. So the 'no insult' policy is a good way of making sure that issues are properly aired without descending into flaming. There is a fine balance between colourful language and insult though and no one wants this place to become insipid or anodyne.

Now you've posted in the lobby you should be able to post in Taoist Discussion. Welcome by the way. And please read the moderation guidelines.

This was believable until you got to the bit about virgins. Come on we're not stupid!

*** Moderator Message **** User sykkelpump was asked to self edit this post as it is deemed insulting. He has decided not to respond or take the opportunity to amend the post so he has been suspended for 30 days. I realize that perhaps his post has been discussed and so this might seem a bit late to take action now but his failure to even respond or acknowledge the request has made this inevitable. Just to be clear - it is perfectly OK to criticize systems or even teachers with factual observations or opinion ... but name calling or describing people as clowns and so on is not Ok. Thanks Apech for Mod Team **** Mod Message ****

Hurrah!!!!!!!!

oMG its today!

Since we have been discussing evolution quite a lot recently I thought this article was interesting - it points to a possible mechanism whereby complex life may emerge. BBC web page "We've tried to bridge the gap between protein structure and evolution and believe we've uncovered evidence that proteins develop mild defects in organisms with smaller population sizes, over the great divide from bacteria to unicellular eukaryotes to invertebrates up to us vertebrates," said Professor Lynch.These slight defects may decrease protein function even as they increase protein cooperation."

Is that rapture or rupture? I don't want to get this wrong.

There is unity in nature and also unity in the things of nature ... the sky, the earth and so on. The inner unity of sky means also it is not mixed with earth and visa versa. Things are what they are ... this makes them stable. If human beings could be just what/who they are instead of being proud, angry and so on then they would have the same kind of oneness as the sky. Our systems of politics and government prevent this kind of oneness ... hence the mistakes, wars and so on. I think we may have to wait a long, long time for any of this to change.

There is a huge reputational risk to a scientist to propose anything other than standard model solutions to problems. Also peer group pressure and fear of ridicule work to make science and kind of closed community. However I would say most scientists are genuine seekers after truth. Science is a very powerful way of looking at the world and yields extraordinary technologies which have and are transforming the world ... and this is only because their ideas work ... they are effective. Its all about interpretation of facts. For instance in this article the scientists talk about small 'defects' in proteins which may have extraordinary results. This is rather like chaos theory where tiny changes transform whole patterns of matter/energy. The interpretation comes in saying are these 'defects' or are they something like small changes in energy/matter. Maybe they are in some sense deliberate or willed. Maybe there is some force or process which wills more complex and sophisticated inter-relationships in nature? Maybe this is part of the 'way' ... the mystery creating the 10k things ... maybe ...