Apech

OK - correct me if I'm wrong but to sum up what you are saying so far. Neidan texts are over mystified by western translation. Jing is body cells. Qi is ATP Shen is something that guides the body (?) The process of Neidan is deep abdominal breathing - because this gives good cell health and vitality. The Dan is nothing more than health produced in this way. In effect there is no real difference between qigong and neidan (?). Is this roughly correct in your view?

Moderation Note: Sorry guys but no politics on DaoBums. Last three posts hidden by me. Happy Christmas.

Feliz natal todos.

Happy shortest day everyone!

What is the breathing method, can you describe it?

Yes please do.

As an incomplete saint I help grandmothers halfway across the street. Not perfect but working on it.

Is there any chance you could outline your basic ideas about how to do Neidan. For instance what is the Dan in your opinion.

ok If you are a spectator of a virtual concept, which has no physical proof, trying to understand the principle of something you don’t believe in, then why did you start a thread called the practice of neidan? Can you explain this because I am lost at this point.

This is exactly the point.

So a 'vital force' and a 'driving force' is not an energy? Hmm. Energy just means the capacity to do work ... or to effect change in some way. So anything which is a vital force must be by definition an energy. Not trying to be picky here as although I accept that the term energy in these contexts has been used in a sloppy way, it does have an exact meaning. Also is it not true that terms which are used elsewhere in certain ways are used in Neidan spcifically as technical terms which may be different to the general meaning of something. I think this needs to be remembered.

This is ep 1 of the series from 1972:

Well I may have misremembered it cos I watched it in the 70’s. The presenters name was Henry Lincoln and he co-authored “the holy blood and the holy grail’ or some such which was a best seller back in the day.

I was just recalling an old TV series called the Blood and the Grail where the presenter referred to king Dagobert as the hairy kings. It has always stuck in my mind - the series ‘inspired’ Dan Browns Da Vinci Code (in other words he ripped it off from them).

The hairy kings who carried the blood line of Christ!

100%

and so?

and?

I practiced Aikido for years because I wanted to learn about ki. I would say nearly everyone I practiced with, including teachers, did not believe ki was real, but at best a kind of metaphor. I practiced qi gong/tai chi also for years and while the teachers did teach qi as real, most of the (western) pupils also did not really believe in it. I was kind of lucky because before that I had practiced meditation for years (mostly unguided and self taught) but qi sensitivity developed naturally without any real technical effort. I can quite see how someone could practice for a long time just physically and never recognise qi. It would be natural in this case to conclude that it doesn't exist. The odd thing is, it is quite easy and natural to get qi sensitivity (I don't mean dramatic powers just the awareness of it in the body) - I think most people would get it if pointed in the right direction. But I am not sure how common it is.

Laotze didn’t make up the existence of Tao. He gave his commentary on the nature of Tao.

I have disagreed with some of your conclusions but I can see you’ve put a lot of work into this. I agree that qi=energy is weak and think that it should be just left as qi in translations. For me the distinction around neidan is about the Dan, the elixir or pill for immortality (ultimately). I think I am right in saying that (it’s been a while since I studied this) the birth of neidan as separate from external alchemy is first documented in the cantong qi and that terms from external ‘chemical’ alchemy were applied to internal subtle substances. This is why jing, qi and so on are conceived of as substances. Thank you for taking the time to do the translation.

That’s a good question. I agree it’s a vague term which needs a bit of elaboration. What I think is that when a baby is conceived there is an interaction between the parents above and beyond the physical coupling. That is there is a mental, emotional and spiritual connection between the two which energizes and imprints on the fertilized egg. This gives the jing component to the new being determining its health and longevity etc.

I would say that jing is what makes the body a living organism rather than a collection of chemicals. Jing is passed on from parents because conception is an energetic event and not just a bio- chemical one.

No that doesn’t follow at all. Not even by analogy. But I’m glad you cleared up your argument for the idea of a unit. Substance is a better word to use especially in the context of Neidan. It is more accurate although of course one needs to be crystal clear about what exactly a substance is in this context.

Thanks. So it’s a fundamental vital substance of the body. Good that’s clear. A substance and not a unit after all.