Apech

Laotze didn’t make up the existence of Tao. He gave his commentary on the nature of Tao.

I have disagreed with some of your conclusions but I can see you’ve put a lot of work into this. I agree that qi=energy is weak and think that it should be just left as qi in translations. For me the distinction around neidan is about the Dan, the elixir or pill for immortality (ultimately). I think I am right in saying that (it’s been a while since I studied this) the birth of neidan as separate from external alchemy is first documented in the cantong qi and that terms from external ‘chemical’ alchemy were applied to internal subtle substances. This is why jing, qi and so on are conceived of as substances. Thank you for taking the time to do the translation.

That’s a good question. I agree it’s a vague term which needs a bit of elaboration. What I think is that when a baby is conceived there is an interaction between the parents above and beyond the physical coupling. That is there is a mental, emotional and spiritual connection between the two which energizes and imprints on the fertilized egg. This gives the jing component to the new being determining its health and longevity etc.

I would say that jing is what makes the body a living organism rather than a collection of chemicals. Jing is passed on from parents because conception is an energetic event and not just a bio- chemical one.

No that doesn’t follow at all. Not even by analogy. But I’m glad you cleared up your argument for the idea of a unit. Substance is a better word to use especially in the context of Neidan. It is more accurate although of course one needs to be crystal clear about what exactly a substance is in this context.

Thanks. So it’s a fundamental vital substance of the body. Good that’s clear. A substance and not a unit after all.

You said it was a ‘unit’ so I would like to know where you got that from.

Where does it say that Yuen jing is a ‘unit’?

AI (grok and perplexity) often make things up it is well known. You can use them as a research tool with caution but you have to check everything with sources. You cannot rely on AI for interpretation or guidance.

The Ainu have an isolate language I believe.

when we all shine on bringing up that black gloss on someone else’s shoes.

I recall that Padmasambhava spent some of his time calming and binding gods and demons to the dharma (as did other eg. Mila). Also Mahakala is called Betali i.e. demon and Yaksha ie. nature spirit. So I conclude that having got the HGA binding demons of the world is logical (maybe necessary?). I don't know about stream entry ... but I am thinking 1st Bhumi ... but I don't think the HGA is that. It may be closer to the first full bodhicitta realisation (?) I'm not sure. But certainly meeting your root guru. Yes precisely. I know of masters who do it several times ... and as you say after realisation. Not that I am comparing myself - but I do it as a kind of rolling programme even though I have supposedly 'completed' it.

when ripe, the fruit falls full soft pear and satsuma juice, lips, tongue, sweet now.

Hi and welcome.

Yes ... I mean a Wednesday ? save it for the weekend surely. I think the demon thing is possibly ok. I haven't read it yet but I can see the logic of, if you like solidifying the HGA by addressing the worldly powers. It makes sense and many parallels in say the Kalachakra tantra and so on. It's the magic squares that I don't get ... and suggest that this is just ann add on from someone's grimoire. (?) i.e. not directly relevant to the main work. Although I can see that in magic you do have to test its efficacy or its could all just be subjective mind tricks. Yep ... maybe. The translation of ngondro as preliminary is a bit misleading. Perhaps 'foundation practices' might be better. They are not just something you get out of the way before the heavy lifting starts. In fact in a lot of ways they are the heavy lifting. They are a practice in themselves which doesn't really end at completion. Although I've done the 100,000 of this and that ... I still do them. The guru or lama is in some respects your actual teacher .. but equally it is your buddha nature and the dharmakaya itself. The more I think about it the more hermetic the vajrayana seems (though perhaps not as taught these days in the west at least). I have had as much teaching in dreams and direct inspiration from vajradhara as I have had from my actual teacher (who I have not seen in years).

Oops

How can it be both?

I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly. I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results. I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes. I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA). Interesting.

No one

Well certainly things change. We go through cycles which have peaks and troughs. So we change all the time. I’m not sure what ‘ my sample’ is supposed to mean. Sample of what? Evolution is not progressive - this is a common mistake - it is adaptive. There is no progressive development except variety, and selection of adaptations. It has no purpose at all except survival.

Progress is a myth.

Don’t make me facepalm you 😀

Indo-Europeans we’re very butch and manly , they didn’t wear padding and helmets to throw a little ball around a field.

Indo-European: Hi there! Chinese: Yo person with a funny hat, how are you. I.E.: Fine, fine, sorry about that bit of an invasion by the way. Ch.: That's ok, it's happened before, it'll happen again. I.E.: I feel quite assimilated now by the way. Ch.: So...what you been up to? I.E.: Well it's strange, I dropped some sticks on the floor this morning and when I looked at the pattern I saw that my heifer will bring forth a piebald calf in the three months. Ch.: Cool, sounds a bit like the ancient traditions of divination we have going back thousands of years. I.E.: Well that's nice of you but it's just a pile of yarrow stalks at the end of the day. Ch.: Well do you mind if I take your method and turn it into the most sublime and sophisticated system of divination ever created by mankind? I.E.: Not at all, knock yourself out! I'd help out but I have a burial mound to build. Ch.: Cheers then and say hi to the Sky Father for me. I.E.: Right! Catch you later Chinese guy. (sorry sometimes when I've been on DaoBums a while my mind just gets out of control).

No he doesn't become Anubis ... Anubis is the guide - like the master of ceremonies. He becomes the little bird under the bed ... and flies up to the Eastern sky to look at the sunrise. This is what is said about seeing the sunrise: [stylesheet-group="0"]{} body{margin:0;} button::-moz-focus-inner,input::-moz-focus-inner{border:0;padding:0;} html{-ms-text-size-adjust:100%;-webkit-text-size-adjust:100%;-webkit-tap-highlight-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);} input::-webkit-search-cancel-button,input::-webkit-search-decoration,input::-webkit-search-results-button,input::-webkit-search-results-decoration{display:none;} [stylesheet-group="1"]{} .css-146c3p1{background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.00);border:0 solid black;box-sizing:border-box;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.00);display:inline;font:14px -apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;list-style:none;margin:0px;padding:0px;position:relative;text-align:start;text-decoration:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-word;} .css-175oi2r{align-items:stretch;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.00);border:0 solid black;box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;flex-basis:auto;flex-direction:column;flex-shrink:0;list-style:none;margin:0px;min-height:0px;min-width:0px;padding:0px;position:relative;text-decoration:none;z-index:0;} .css-1jxf684{background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.00);border:0 solid black;box-sizing:border-box;color:inherit;display:inline;font:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0px;padding:0px;position:relative;text-align:inherit;text-decoration:none;white-space:inherit;word-wrap:break-word;} .css-9pa8cd{bottom:0px;height:100%;left:0px;opacity:0;position:absolute;right:0px;top:0px;width:100%;z-index:-1;} [stylesheet-group="2"]{} .r-13awgt0{flex:1;} .r-1adg3ll{display:block;} .r-1jkafct{border-bottom-left-radius:2px;border-bottom-right-radius:2px;border-top-left-radius:2px;border-top-right-radius:2px;} .r-1phboty{border-bottom-style:solid;border-left-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-top-style:solid;} .r-1udh08x{overflow-x:hidden;overflow-y:hidden;} .r-4iw3lz{border-bottom-width:0;border-left-width:0;border-right-width:0;border-top-width:0;} .r-4qtqp9{display:inline-block;} .r-6koalj{display:flex;} .r-bztko3{overflow-x:visible;overflow-y:visible;} .r-crgep1{margin:0px;} .r-hvic4v{display:none;} .r-krxsd3{display:-webkit-box;} .r-rs99b7{border-bottom-width:1px;border-left-width:1px;border-right-width:1px;border-top-width:1px;} .r-sdzlij{border-bottom-left-radius:9999px;border-bottom-right-radius:9999px;border-top-left-radius:9999px;border-top-right-radius:9999px;} .r-t60dpp{padding:0px;} .r-wwvuq4{padding:0;} .r-xoduu5{display:inline-flex;} .r-ywje51{margin:auto;} .r-z2wwpe{border-bottom-left-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;} [stylesheet-group="2.1"]{} .r-1559e4e{padding-bottom:2px;padding-top:2px;} .r-1fkl15p{padding-left:32px;padding-right:32px;} .r-3o4zer{padding-left:12px;padding-right:12px;} .r-3pj75a{padding-left:16px;padding-right:16px;} .r-cxgwc0{padding-left:24px;padding-right:24px;} .r-dd0y9b{padding-bottom:20px;padding-top:20px;} .r-ddtstp{margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px;} .r-dp7rxi{padding-bottom:40px;padding-top:40px;} .r-f8sm7e{margin-left:auto;margin-right:auto;} .r-n7gxbd{padding-left:4px;padding-right:4px;} .r-s49dbf{margin-bottom:1px;margin-top:1px;} .r-sjygvo{padding-left:1em;padding-right:1em;} [stylesheet-group="2.2"]{} .r-15peodp{right:-9999px;} .r-19qo34d{left:-9999px;} .r-1ca1ndr{margin-left:0.5em;} .r-1ez5h0i{margin-left:4px;} .r-1gs4q39{margin-right:4px;} .r-1kkk96v{margin-left:8px;} .r-1kpi4qh{margin-left:0.075em;} .r-1l2kgy{margin-right:0.5em;} .r-1q6cnnd{right:-2px;} .r-1wron08{margin-right:8px;} .r-3t4u6i{margin-left:2px;} .r-45ll9u{left:50%;} .r-5f1w11{left:-2px;} .r-k4bwe5{margin-right:0.075em;} .r-o59np7{padding-right:8px;} .r-ocobd0{right:50%;} .r-qjj4hq{padding-left:8px;} .r-x1x4zq{margin-right:2px;} [stylesheet-group="3"]{} .r-105ug2t{pointer-events:auto!important;} .r-109y4c4{height:1px;} .r-10ptun7{height:16px;} .r-10v3vxq{transform:scaleX(-1);} .r-117bsoe{margin-bottom:20px;} .r-11c0sde{margin-top:24px;} .r-11j9u27{visibility:hidden;} .r-12181gd{box-shadow:0 0 2px rgba(0,0,0,0.03) inset;} .r-12sks89{min-height:22px;} .r-12vffkv>*{pointer-events:auto;} .r-12vffkv{pointer-events:none!important;} .r-12ym1je{width:18px;} .r-135wba7{line-height:24px;} .r-13qz1uu{width:100%;} .r-13wfysu{-webkit-text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-line:none;} .r-146iojx{max-width:300px;} .r-1472mwg{height:24px;} .r-14j79pv{color:rgba(83,100,113,1.00);} .r-14lw9ot{background-color:rgba(255,255,255,1.00);} .r-15ysp7h{min-height:32px;} .r-16dba41{font-weight:400;} .r-16y2uox{flex-grow:1;} .r-176fswd{transform:translateX(-50%) translateY(-50%);} .r-1777fci{justify-content:center;} .r-17bb2tj{animation-duration:0.75s;} .r-17leim2{background-repeat:repeat;} .r-17s6mgv{justify-content:flex-end;} .r-18jsvk2{color:rgba(15,20,25,1.00);} .r-18tzken{width:56px;} .r-18u37iz{flex-direction:row;} .r-18yzcnr{height:22px;} .r-19wmn03{width:20px;} .r-19yznuf{min-height:52px;} .r-1abnn5w{animation-play-state:paused;} .r-1acpoxo{width:36px;} .r-1ad0z5i{word-break:break-all;} .r-1awozwy{align-items:center;} .r-1b43r93{font-size:14px;} .r-1betnmo{max-width:672px;} .r-1blnp2b{width:72px;} .r-1blvdjr{font-size:23px;} .r-1ceczpf{min-height:24px;} .r-1cwl3u0{line-height:16px;} .r-1d2f490{left:0px;} .r-1ddef8g{-webkit-text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-line:underline;} .r-1dn12g7{line-height:48px;} .r-1ebb2ja{list-style:none;} .r-1ff274t{text-align:right;} .r-1gkfh8e{font-size:11px;} .r-1h0z5md{justify-content:flex-start;} .r-1h8ys4a{padding-top:4px;} .r-1hjwoze{height:18px;} .r-1iln25a{word-wrap:normal;} .r-1inkyih{font-size:17px;} .r-1ipicw7{width:300px;} .r-1iusvr4{flex-basis:0px;} .r-1janqcz{width:16px;} .r-1jaylin{width:-webkit-max-content;width:-moz-max-content;width:max-content;} .r-1k78y06{font-family:Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif;} .r-1kihuf0{align-self:center;} .r-1ldzwu0{animation-timing-function:linear;} .r-1loqt21{cursor:pointer;} .r-1mlwlqe{flex-basis:auto;} .r-1mrlafo{background-position:0;} .r-1muvv40{animation-iteration-count:infinite;} .r-1mwlp6a{height:56px;} .r-1nao33i{color:rgba(231,233,234,1.00);} .r-1niwhzg{background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.00);} .r-1ny4l3l{outline-style:none;} .r-1oifz5y{background-color:rgba(170,17,0,1.00);} .r-1oszu61{align-items:stretch;} .r-1otgn73{touch-action:manipulation;} .r-1p0dtai{bottom:0px;} .r-1pi2tsx{height:100%;} .r-1ps3wis{min-width:44px;} .r-1qd0xha{font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;} .r-1qi8awa{min-width:36px;} .r-1r5jyh0{min-height:130px;} .r-1r8g8re{height:36px;} .r-1s2hp8q{min-height:26px;} .r-1sxrcry{background-size:auto;} .r-1tl8opc{font-family:"Segoe UI",Meiryo,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,sans-serif;} .r-1to6hqq{background-color:rgba(255,212,0,1.00);} .r-1ttztb7{text-align:inherit;} .r-1udbk01{text-overflow:ellipsis;} .r-1v2oles{top:50%;} .r-1vmecro{direction:rtl;} .r-1vr29t4{font-weight:800;} .r-1wb8bfx{text-decoration-thickness:2px;} .r-1wbh5a2{flex-shrink:1;} .r-1wvb978{font-feature-settings:'ss01' on;} .r-1wyyakw{z-index:-1;} .r-1xcajam{position:fixed;} .r-1xk2f4g{clip:rect(1px, 1px, 1px, 1px);} .r-1xnzce8{-moz-user-select:text;-webkit-user-select:text;user-select:text;} .r-1xvli5t{height:1.25em;} .r-1y7e96w{min-width:22px;} .r-1ye8kvj{max-width:600px;} .r-1yef0xd{animation-name:r-11cv4x;} .r-1yjpyg1{font-size:31px;} .r-1ykxob0{top:60%;} .r-2o02ov{margin-top:40px;} .r-2tavb8{background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.60);} .r-2yi16{min-height:36px;} .r-36ujnk{font-style:italic;} .r-37tt59{line-height:32px;} .r-3s2u2q{white-space:nowrap;} .r-417010{z-index:0;} .r-4gszlv{background-size:cover;} .r-4hwcpe{font-family:Vazirmatn, Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif;} .r-4wgw6l{min-width:32px;} .r-54znze{color:rgba(239,243,244,1.00);} .r-56xrmm{line-height:12px;} .r-6026j{background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0.85);} .r-633pao{pointer-events:none!important;} .r-6416eg{-moz-transition-property:background-color, box-shadow;-webkit-transition-property:background-color, box-shadow;transition-property:background-color, box-shadow;} .r-64el8z{min-width:52px;} .r-7q8q6z{cursor:default;} .r-8akbws{-webkit-box-orient:vertical;} .r-8jfcpp{top:-2px;} .r-92ng3h{width:1px;} .r-a023e6{font-size:15px;} .r-adyw6z{font-size:20px;} .r-agouwx{transform:translateZ(0);} .r-ah5dr5>*{pointer-events:none;} .r-ah5dr5{pointer-events:auto!important;} .r-aqfbo4{backface-visibility:hidden;} .r-b88u0q{font-weight:700;} .r-bcqeeo{min-width:0px;} .r-bnwqim{position:relative;} .r-bt1l66{min-height:20px;} .r-bvlit7{margin-bottom:-12px;} .r-clrlgt{animation-name:r-imtty0;} .r-deolkf{box-sizing:border-box;} .r-dflpy8{height:1.2em;} .r-dnmrzs{max-width:100%;} .r-ehq7j7{background-size:contain;} .r-emqnss{transform:translateZ(0px);} .r-eqz5dr{flex-direction:column;} .r-ero68b{min-height:40px;} .r-fdjqy7{text-align:left;} .r-fm7h5w{font-family:"TwitterChirpExtendedHeavy","Verdana",-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;} .r-h9hxbl{width:1.2em;} .r-icoktb{opacity:0.5;} .r-ifefl9{min-height:0px;} .r-impgnl{transform:translateX(50%) translateY(-50%);} .r-iphfwy{padding-bottom:4px;} .r-ipm5af{top:0px;} .r-jmul1s{transform:scale(1.1);} .r-jwli3a{color:rgba(255,255,255,1.00);} .r-kemksi{background-color:rgba(0,0,0,1.00);} .r-lp5zef{min-width:24px;} .r-lrsllp{width:24px;} .r-lrvibr{-moz-user-select:none;-webkit-user-select:none;user-select:none;} .r-m6rgpd{vertical-align:text-bottom;} .r-majxgm{font-weight:500;} .r-n6v787{font-size:13px;} .r-nhe8su{animation-duration:0.5s;} .r-nvplwv{animation-timing-function:ease-out;} .r-nwxazl{line-height:40px;} .r-o7ynqc{transition-duration:0.2s;} .r-orgf3d{opacity:0;} .r-peo1c{min-height:44px;} .r-poiln3{font-family:inherit;} .r-pp5qcn{vertical-align:-20%;} .r-q4m81j{text-align:center;} .r-qlhcfr{font-size:0.001px;} .r-qvk6io{line-height:0px;} .r-qvutc0{word-wrap:break-word;} .r-rjixqe{line-height:20px;} .r-rki7wi{bottom:12px;} .r-s67bdx{font-size:48px;} .r-sb58tz{max-width:1000px;} .r-tjvw6i{text-decoration-thickness:1px;} .r-u6sd8q{background-repeat:no-repeat;} .r-u8s1d{position:absolute;} .r-ueyrd6{line-height:36px;} .r-uho16t{font-size:34px;} .r-vkv6oe{min-width:40px;} .r-vlxjld{color:rgba(247,249,249,1.00);} .r-vqxq0j{border:0 solid black;} .r-vrz42v{line-height:28px;} .r-vvn4in{background-position:center;} .r-wy61xf{height:72px;} .r-x3cy2q{background-size:100% 100%;} .r-x572qd{background-color:rgba(247,249,249,1.00);} .r-xigjrr{-webkit-filter:blur(4px);filter:blur(4px);} .r-yc9v9c{width:22px;} .r-yfoy6g{background-color:rgba(21,32,43,1.00);} .r-yn5ncy{animation-fill-mode:both;} .r-yy2aun{font-size:26px;} .r-yyyyoo{fill:currentcolor;} .r-z7pwl0{max-width:700px;} .r-z80fyv{height:20px;} .r-zchlnj{right:0px;} @-webkit-keyframes r-11cv4x{0%{transform:rotate(0deg);}100%{transform:rotate(360deg);}} @-webkit-keyframes r-imtty0{0%{opacity:0;}100%{opacity:1;}} @keyframes r-11cv4x{0%{transform:rotate(0deg);}100%{transform:rotate(360deg);}} @keyframes r-imtty0{0%{opacity:0;}100%{opacity:1;}} .r-8iu2i{position:absolute;visibility:hidden;top:0;width:50px;pointer-events:none} .r-8iu2i.loaded{visibility:visible;top:50vh;width:50px} “I am Atum in the primeval darkness, dwelling in the Great Mansion.I am the one who existed at the beginning of the gods.I am Shu at the beginning of gods and men.I am Re when he rises in the horizon.I am the one who is in the Duat in the primeval darkness.How beautiful is your rising in the sky! He who came forth as Re, who came into being as Atum.Re came forth from Atum,Atum came forth from Re.There is no god who came into being before him."