Apech

In that case no it’s not a black school.

Knowing that things are empty is a great release from suffering and leads to great joy. what does ‘black school’ mean?

Yes Cobie we have all read your posts 😃

Lala, Your presence on here is very welcome. I hope you get as much from being on here as I have over the years. Don’t be afraid to express yourself - it’s all good. DaoBums has a long history now and at times it was far from being a sea of calm to say the least. What keeps it going is the membership and a flow of new members. Provided the tech doesn’t break down at some point I think we still have a long future of happy debate!

This is a very big subject which will give rise to different interpretations and points of view. I would follow your teachers advice even though I don’t totally agree with it. In the end I just express what I have learned and make no claims to authority.

It means they are empty ( shunya ) .

I can’t speak for Bon but in the case of Buddhism it is deep in its central core and very flexible to outer social and cultural norms. That is why you have so many forms of Buddhism which seem very different outwardly but are all genuinely Buddhist. What is and is not Buddhist is defined by the Four Dharma Seals which are as follows: all compounded phenomena are impermanent. attachment of self to phenomena leads to suffering. Nirvana is perfect peace. all phenomena are pure beyond elaboration. Hope this is helpful.

I practice Vajrayana and it is 100% Buddhist.

adobe abode whitewash walls and shade within mud hut aesthetics

sounds like marshmallow with a squish when I swallow soft but not hollow.

Welcome

The exact origins of Vajrayana are hard to pin down historically. However I think it is fairly safe to say that the form of Buddhism which was transmitted to Tibet in two waves mainly in the 8th and 10th Centuries was the same as what was being practiced mainstream in Northern India at the time. And thus is actually Buddhism and not some kind of strange hybrid which the person is suggesting. I suspect the poster is Nepalese Hindu and thus is anti- Buddhist in some way which is uncertain. Those are my thoughts anyway.

There's a number of subjects which arose on this thread which I want to address - just to clarify my position. 1. Accumulation of qi/energy etc. In Wang Mu Daoist Internal Alchemy the first stage is called Laying the Foundations and this consists in the first place of conserving, restoring and guarding the three treasures. The three treasures are jing, qi and shen. The clear implication is that you stop frittering away your energy, turn it inwards and conserve it. I would call this accumulation. In Vajrayana Buddhism the preliminary practices are based round accumulating merit (a kind of positive energy) and wisdom (insight into the nature of things). So here the term used is accumulation. This is quite basic I believe. The idea that this is somehow negative versus 'free flow' is erroneous in my opinion and is based on a kind of New Age version of what qi is and how it behaves. Like the idea that Daoism means 'go with the flow' - a highly discredited idea. 2. Meditation as therapy. There were some examples given of applying Buddhist principles to therapy. That in itself is possibly ok but I have no experience of it. However one example of using 'tsa lung' was given. Tsa Lung means literally 'channels and winds' and refers to a completion stage yoga which uses channels and winds (energy flow) together with tigle (drops) as the basis for the subtle body - which in this practice becomes identified with the Sambhoga kaya. It is a very high level practice the aim of which is the 'merging' of the self with the entire subtle body realm (sambhoga-kaya). I doubt very much this is what the therapist is teaching. Rather perhaps he/she has borrowed some of the more tangible breathing exercises and movements to apply them to relaxation or something like that. This is almost reverse Buddhism. To put it simply ... you relax in order to meditate, but you don't meditate in order to relax. 3. Beliefs We all hold beliefs of course - or we wouldn't be able to function. But in terms of the praxis of meditation belief is not really an element. There is a process of growing confidence which occurs but this is based on applying the principles taught and reflecting on the positive results. Through the work you do you find after a while a growing confidence based on what is happening to you - this is not the same as belief. If you hold beliefs about meditation you should actually challenge them as hard as you can - test them to destruction until if they hold up under intense scrutiny they become working principles you can apply. Even your very interest in Daoism or Buddhism or whatever in the first place has a cause. That cause is your buddha-nature (or equivalent) which already knows the possibility of fulfilling the path. If this was not the case none of this would be possible. Again this is not 'belief' but perhaps inner calling. Thanks.

Discuss. Follow on from the other thread (you know the one I mean)

May I ask what your religion is?

On DBs we are free to express opinions and ideas - you can’t limit that by making these kinds comments ( which are by the way passive aggressive in their own way)

Because it’s wrong - that’s what I think - you are free to think otherwise.

If you have practiced meditation with results it is not the same as belief in God etc. So I would say it is different. If you hold beliefs on meditation it probably means you haven’t done any. ( generally not at you personally).

Generally speaking we allow all kinds of disagreements but prohibit ad hominem attacks on others. Attack ideas not the person that is the main ethos.

Yes I think I could write a 50 page essay on the idea that meditation is about quieting your mind. Its one of the circular problems with meditation that the idea that you have when you start pre-conditions the experience. It would be better to ask like a kind of koan 'why is my mind so noisy?' ... if one is going to bother going down that route at all. At least that is an open enquiry and not a kind of demand or request for service.

I still don't quite get your focus on 'beliefs about meditation' - for me meditation is a praxis and I don't really have beliefs about it - just experience and results. I think the key to this and other subjects is intent. Why are you doing it and what is the purpose. Most (prob 90%) of meditation taught in the West is just beginner stuff - necessarily light and without much depth. The teaching focusses on learning a technique of some kind. Usually people think that this is about chilling out and relaxing - getting a break from the pressures of daily life - or even the dreaded mindfulness. I think all this should be replaced with normal healthy living. If you have 'spiritual' ambitions like enlightenment and so on then this is a different issue. Because it is quite likely to make you more disturbed and less relaxed - at least in the short term. Meditation should never be taught as a therapy IMO. It is too dangerous.

OK my takeaway from this thread so far is that many of us do various practices which we have learned either from a lineage or a teacher or otherwise picked up from somewhere. We derive benefit from them in certain ways and this is probably based on what has worked for us in the past and so on. What is in dispute is the limits of the term 'meditation' - and people are usiing it differently (inclusively or exclusively). If we are to learn from each other then we need to understand the perspective of the other people on here - even if we are not particularly sympathetic to what they are saying. It's ok, even good to disagree. In fact if we didn't take a strong position on this it would seem that it is unimportant to us. For me, meditation specifically refers to a process leading to realisation and not to the various energy exercises and so on which I have an ability in. So many of the things that people have called meditation on here I would not accept as being as such even if they may be effective in some way. That's where I am up to so far. I look forward to the rest of the conversation.

Moderator Note: Could people be nice? Let's not bicker but perhaps just ask intelligent questions.

Sitting and forgetting ... it is usually translated.