sean

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41 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

What I'm saying is, tools and arts and sciences can exist on entirely different terms if the goal is entirely different.   

 

💯

 

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There's ample evidence [...] of our ancestors taking great care of the old, injured, sick [...] we are hardwired to care for the absolutely helpless -- more than any animal on earth -- and that's because our young are born the most helpless and the most dependent of all and remain so for much longer than the offspring of any other species.  Which means that we can't have anything else in our makeup that would allow us to keep procreating than the desire and ability to care, absolutely altruistically, for the helpless and dependent. 

 

Love this. ❤️

 

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Billions would have to die if we were to try to switch to a different way of doing things?  That would be horrible and not worth it.  But I don't see how on earth billions won't die if we don't switch to a different way of doing things. I absolutely can't begin to imagine how this can be practically not our future, considering that every next century brought wars with percentage of victims an order of magnitude greater than the previous one.  Every. Single. One.  

 

I agree billions very well may die if we don't find new ways and rediscover old ones. I just hope we agree an ideal goal at least is that we not simply shrug; that we do anything we can to imagine and move toward alternatives.

 

I have a penchant for melancholy and even outright nihilism in my darker hours. I'm no stranger to depressive realism. But lately I wonder if a dash of delusional hope for a more enchanted living future is not the worst spell to cast from a corner. 🧙‍♂️

 

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I don't think "eco fascism" is a feature of anarcho-primitivism specifically [...]  But then, I'm not taking my ideas from them to begin with.  They just happen to have noticed some of the things I've noticed, and in that, are different from most ideologies that absolutely don't notice the elephant in the room.

 

Agreed! Also, hope my post didn't come across as an attack on your philosophy or anything. I haven't found anything you've written offensive in the way I was addressing at all, and I think there's an important and beautiful dialectic to be had with green anarchism. 💚🌿

 

Speaking of cave paintings: Why are these 32 symbols found in ancient caves all over Europe?

 

Sean

 

27 minutes ago, manitou said:

@sean- your brain is exquisite, and your ideas soar.  I'm kind of honored to know you.

 

 

😂

 

Likewise! ❤️🙏

 

Sean

 

I appreciate the rewilding instict in its expression as a natural, personal and intuitive counterbalance to clearly inhuman implementations of technology (風水!).

 

I also believe humans are fundamentally inseparable from technology. 🐉 Making tools and towns and poems and machines is what we do.

 

But our technologies do reflect the ideology and character of those with any power to shape them. Hence why we're now often surrounded by terrible modern technology.

 

For example, looking at the technology of cities. U.S. cities and suburbs structurally encode a legacy of hypercapitalist industrialization, racial segregation, white supremacy, unprecedented wealth inequality, and fear of nature and death.

 

 

 

 

Modern cities, and the networks between them, are rarely "human scale" or even lifecentric. They are overwhelmingly bloodless factory and personal-smog-vehicle scale. This entire mess is an aberration, not a progression, of traditional city design patterns (i.e. traditional technologies).

 

 

I think it's rational to be disgusted by all of this and want to imagine something better. Or even to fantasize about simply tearing it all down and starting over.

 

Unfortunately I can't see how anarcho primitivism in the large, as any kind of grand destination, wouldn't require the death of billions of human lives. 😳 At best it also seems to have no ideas for how to move "forward" with this low-key annihilation death wish except to individually move backward, drop out, wait for an apocalypse? At its worst reactionary edges, it also starts intersecting with straight ecofascism. 😢

 

I simply do not buy that human technology is inherently problematic.

 

I also reject the idea of human overpopulation. Last time I did the napkin-math, the entire human population, nearing 8 billion people, could all fit in the U.S. state of Texas with a population density less than Paris, France. The problem isn't "too many humans, a bunch of these fuckers need to die". The challenge is collectively discovering sustainable energy and resource models that help us all thrive in deepening harmony with our beautiful planet.

 

I absolutely love and cherish that some of our ancestors and the still living sought and continue to seek ways to include and nourish bodies and minds of so-called disabled and neurodivergent peoples. Bodies much more susceptible to displacement and death in exclusively pre-agrarian societies. Millions of now living people are only here with us because of very modern technology.

 

The idea that these same bodies would "become strong" over time via some kind of planetary scale loss of modern life and technology I think relies on a misunderstanding of how biological evolution works. "Survival of the fittest" is another way of saying "the 'weak' died off". Social Darwinism is a boring, shitty, unimaginative approach to society. I really believe we can envision and do so much better y'all. Don't give up. 🙏✨

 

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

❤️

 

Sean

 

31 minutes ago, rene said:

 Yes, more often than not, it was a disrespectful rowdy and sometimes ugly place. But isn't Dao in all of that also?

 

TDB is 180 from what it began as. I think if you want to change the name of this site it would be fine and perhaps more reflective of what it is now, or what you wish it to become.

 

I think you may underestimate how impolite, politically incorrect and rowdy us dirtbag leftists can be. 😜 I want things to get more weird around here. Just with less punching down.

 

Sean

 

Also now I'm already feeling torn at the idea of relegating the Daoist tradition to one subforum on a site called "The Dao Bums". 😳

 

Sean

 

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Are interviews and textual studies both supposed to only be subsets of Daoist?  Maybe move both up a layer?  Or at least interviews.

 

Thanks. Yeah I keep fiddling with where these belong Currently Textual Studies is all Daoist. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

1 minute ago, dwai said:

I'd suggest changing the "Vedic" to "Hindu"  as it is more apropos the topics currently there. 

 

OK I'm a dumb dumb re: the correct terms here. I was hoping Vedic was a broader umbrella that could include both Hinduism and also older teachings. Is that not the case?

 

Neatly categorizing the 10,000 things in language is hard y'all. 😆

 

Sean

 

What if "Discussions On The Way" becomes the new "General Discussion" with a new forum to house "Focused Traditions".

 

THE COURTYARD

 

- Welcome!

  - Newcomer Corner
- Discussions On The Way (previously "General Discussion")
- Focused Traditions
  - Daoist (previously top level "Daoist Discussion")
    - 道家学说
    - Interviews
    - Textual Studies
  - Buddhist
  - Vedic
  - Occult
- The Rabbit Hole (merges "The Rabbit Hole", "Off Grid". Basically an off topic forum to talk about whatever, but not an "anything goes")
- Meta-Talk (merges Forum and Tech Support, Moderation Logs, Rules and Use)
 
PRIVATE GARDENS

- Personal Practice (still has everyone's private subforums under this)
- Gender Gardens
    - Nonbinary (for nonbinary, gender questioning and intersex)
    - Women (for women and female identified)
    - Men (for men and male identified)
- Group Studies
- Lending Library
- Local Meetups and Events (merges Local Meetups and Upcoming Events)

 

Sean

 

47 minutes ago, s1va said:

Your post seems to imply the person you are interacting with are tolerant to racism, homophobia, etc.  Not sure if this is a diversionary tactic to avoid addressing the real points brought up in my post.  I am not tolerant towards any of these and as far as I know none of my friends are.  In my experience, right wing or right leaning views does not automatically equate to racism or homophobia automatically.

 

I think you were demonstrably tolerant of exactly such, even by your own admission. And I think this was actually my fault, because of my own bad, "apolitical" policies. Hence this topic.

 

Sorry but right-wingers are pretty reliably bigoted if you keep scratching. 😬 As important, they're also ideologically classist and anti-poor. These are not just "like, my opinions, man". As many have articulated in this very topic, these antisocial beliefs map to real policies and physical institutions that effect horrific material consequences upon actual people's lives and deaths even right now, as I type this. Liberals aren't even much better by the way. If I was really going full super saiyan I'd have drawn the line further left, so please consider this an attempt at compassionate compromise, amigo.

 

🙏

 

Sean

 

27 minutes ago, s1va said:

Replacing one set of extreme views, intolerance and hatred with another set is sadly distasteful.

 

A classic example of bothsidesism in this case.

 

"Hatred" of racism and homophobia are not the same as being racist and homophobic.

 

Sure, hatred is not the healthiest or most effective emotion. But it's still qualitatively different to be naturally morally disgusted and upset with bigotry than it is to be a bigot and ignorantly espouse such.

 

Intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance.

 

27 minutes ago, s1va said:

Perhaps someone can clarify for some of us who may have friends or family with diverse views and people from all political spectrums.

 

Please don't hijack the word diverse to include people with regressive, intolerant politics. Spend time with your bigoted friends and family in the real world. Love them. Talk to them. Hold them accountable. Help them evolve. Just don't invite them to this one weird Daoish forum on the internet run by a literal communist. Que sera.

 

Sean

 

Quick thoughts ...

 

"New Age" as the spontaneous modern expression of an archetypal syncretic impulse = 💯. 😎

 

"New Age" in the negative connotation I think refers to a kind of lazy hodgepodging for shallow personal indulgence and without intention for real depth or transformation. A kind of performative spirituality that feels insincere and often intersects with cultural appropriation.

 

Anyway, FWIW this difficulty in arbitrating between "True Daoism™" and any "Discussions Along The Way" was part of my motivation to simply merge the two main forums and let us all be weird in one spot.

 

Sean

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

Since Trump got elected we have had nearly three years of:

resist

grab them by the pussy

he's a racist, misogynist, homophobe, transphobe, islamophobe

Stormy Daniels (FFS)

literally Hitler

Russiagate

Mueller

impeach, impeach, impeach

... and so on

 

... and not a scratch.

 

Yeah, Democrats are really bad at politics. I sometimes can't help but believe it's half deliberate. I think they'd rather see Trump reelected than even consider "socialism".

 

 

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Time to change the strategy

 

Oh and ...

 

Not a bad video. It seems to weirdly ignore important reasons Biden polls so well though, e.g., wheelbarrows full of corporate money and flagrantly preferential media air time. There's not much Sanders, or anyone, can do to compete with that. I do believe a Biden nomination will 100% hand us another four years of our wonderful rotting pumpkin brain. And it will probably be just as bewildering to all these focus group chart statistic nerds as it was in 2016. "But the numbers assured us the super creepy guy would win!!?" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Really I'm just waiting for Sanders and Warren to assemble into a cool Voltron mecha or something and fight this thing together. 😆

 

Sean

 

Thanks! I've edited my OP, incorporating suggestions, including retaining separate Daoist and "general".

 

Sean

 

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

So,  western 'occult' , hermetics, etc will be in  The Rabbit Hole ?

 

No, my idea was that topics in any subforum not retained under new “Discussions On The Way” that are now part of current Daoist or General Discussion would get folded into main DOTW.

 

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Please dont suggest the search function  ;     

 

Ahh does current search suck? I’ve been meaning to build a custom search engine for this site for ever.

 

Sean

 

EDIT: Revised based on suggestions. You can see latest along with revision history here:

https://gist.github.com/seanomlor/d3c6caca3263bfe3706fd54456316f66

 

I'd like to simplify the forums a bit.

 

The biggest change I'm wanting is to merge Daoist Discussion and General Discussion, along with many of the subforums.

 

Given the nonsectarian roots of this space, I've never been super stoked on the compartmentalization of e.g. Buddhist vs Hindu, etc. etc. It's also a can of worms because we're certainly excluding innumerable traditions.

 

My feeling is that merging a bunch of these separate forums into one big, weird "Discussions On The Way" simpler, flatter forums will promote more cross-pollination between us.

Anyway, here's a quick rough draft of what I'm imagining the new forum/subforum structure to be.

 

THE COURTYARD

 

- Welcome! (merges Welcome and Newcomer Corner)
- Discussions On The Way (previously Daoist Discussion)
    - 道家学说
    - Textual Studies (merges Daodejing, Zhuangzi, etc.)
- Vast High Weirdness (😆 still working on this name, previously General Discussion. The word "general" just feels so boring.)
- The Rabbit Hole (merges "The Rabbit Hole", "Off Grid". Basically an off topic forum to talk about whatever, but not an "anything goes")
- Meta-Talk (merges Forum and Tech Support, Moderation Logs, Rules and Use)
 
PRIVATE GARDENS

 

- Group Studies
- Personal Practice (still has everyone's private subforums under this)
- Gender Gardens
    - Nonbinary (for nonbinary, gender questioning and intersex)
    - Women (for women and female identified)
    - Men (for men and male identified)

- Interviews
- Lending Library
- Local Meetups and Events (merges Local Meetups and Upcoming Events)

 

Please discuss, definitely want to hear your feedback, concerns, any subforums you think should still be separate for whatever reason, etc. etc.

 

Sean

 

28 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

(sorry, CMM)

 

🤔

 

Call Me Maybe?
Cash Money Millionaire?
Christ de Maison en Maison?

Cats Majestic Malaise?

 

How many guesses do I get? 😜

 

Sean

 

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

>> The Republican Party is the most dangerous organisation in human history

 

Oh really?  The Nazis, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ghenghis Khan, the Spanish Inquisition ... I could go on.

 

The level of planet-destroying power the U.S. now wields adds orders of magnitude to the devastation possible. I think that's part of Chomsky's point there. Also I think the Republican party is the modern pinnacle of sophistication at laundering their agenda into less overtly broadcasted "grand schemes." So the widespread suffering and death that's a direct result of their policies is more insidious.

 

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

By the way if you want to look round the world for a really nasty piece of shit, try Bolsonaro in Brazil.  Sinister and highly unpleasant.

 

💯 Far worse than Trump! 😬

 

Sean

 

15 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I wouldn't compare Trump to Hitler though, but more to authoritarian leaders like Erdogan or Putin. And actually I think more to Erdogan because of his over the top rhetoric, than than to Putin.

 

I agree, I think Trump is more like Erdogan.

 

Good article I read recently by the way: "The Era of People Like You Is Over": How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals.

 

13 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I have seen the term "bothsideism" used several times now, so please explain what exactly it is supposed to mean, and who the accused are...

 

It's the reflexive misapprehension that because two things present as an apparent duality, that the truth must, intuitively be somewhere in the middle. The fallacy is clear in an example like:

 

A: Slavery is good, actually.

B: No, slavery is bad.

 

But it's less obvious when discussing political agendas where one "side", while perhaps correct twice a day like a broken clock happens to be, is actually quite ideologically rotten to the core. I think bothsidesism is particularly rampant in the U.S. where it's deliberately exacerbated by the media to maintain a spectacle for financial gain.

 

13 hours ago, Miffymog said:

>> I find the condescending pearl clutching of committed bothsidesism on the internet funny?

 

But, talking like this to Rene when she made, in my eyes, a very rational statement of the obvious

 

Was very, very poor.

 

I do find bothsidesism kind of funny-sad, but I agree this was poor form. I apologize.

 

In fact, on reflection afterwards I realized — while this was not my conscious intention and I do use the same language with men, the phrase "pearl clutching" has a gendered connotation that might have added an inadvertent, additional layer of acidity. I'll try to do better. 🙇

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

But please note, I said action and not reaction. 

 

I've seen alot of righteous anger in my life, and when it's tightly gripped and held it tends towards distortion imo. And yes, suppression distorts as well. So where is the "sweet spot" between these distortions?

 

Beautiful inquiry.

 

Sean

 

5 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

@sean Do you think the above manifesto could at least be put in one of those neat little "reveal hidden content" windows if it's going to remain here?

 

Sure thing. Done. I should probably come up with some kind of "content warning" guideline at some point.

 

Sean