rene

23 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Around age 10 my dad got me one of those little badass compound bow beginner kits....

 

I never had one as a kid...but I picked up the affinity a few years ago...

It comes in handy, up here (-:

16 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Wonderful stuff.  This open question arises... is effort a requirement for what is?

 

There are subtle distinctions for me within effort/non-effort ...

 

Does 'intent' play into this for you? Perhaps in effort, but not in authentic action? (wonderful term for non-effort, btw )

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Perhaps effort and effortlessness are not ultimately so opposed.  Like the primordial forces of yin and yang, they can interpenetrate, give rise to each other in a natural rhythm.  Weaving intentionality and surrender together in a single braid, we arrive at...´(well, honestly I don´t know where this goes but I´d like to get there.)

You arrive at Both, same time!

We intentionally (using effort) try to accomplish something - all the while being totally fine with the possibility that we will not succeed as planned!

Intentionality and surrender do not exclude each other! (-:

53 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

I have to admit that at this point the notion of Heaven gives me pause. I am not sure that one can look to the DDJ for an ... adequate, appropriate, more balanced? ... understanding. That is, relying solely on the DDJ does not seem to provide an understanding that fits most discussions. The point about Heaven not being the same as Dao is certainly a fair point ... But, on the other hand, it does not seem apart from Dao either ... that it shares some qualities. In some texts Heaven is said to operate in the same self-so impartial manner as the Dao.

 

In the various texts, the term Heaven seems to be used in a number of different ways and frequently without reference to Earth, as if Heaven has some sort of natural preeminence ... another thing that I find troubling.

 

I take a lot of my understanding of Heaven from the Yijing and from Leizi. In Leizi, it is almost the exception to find Heaven mentioned apart from Earth.

 

So, in my understanding, I tend to see Heaven and Earth as being inextricably tied together but with distinct influences on the world, each with its own constancy and impartiality. There being, a dynamic tension between the two that accounts for time and change in the manifest world. Hence, expanding and contracting, growth and decay and reversion in unending cycle.

 

Just elaborating on what I have been given to understand from the texts.

 

 

I appreciate your elaborations. (-: I'm not familiar with the other texts at all, let alone to make any comparisons. I can see, however, where some texts would want to pretty much equate their concept of Heaven with Dao's impartiality...to reinforce their own ideas.

My take on "Heaven is not being the same as Dao" is simpler, and incorporates the Christian concept of God/Heaven - which is pretty much representative of the "goodness/positive/light/thrive" half of the whole, and promoting such. Yes?

To me, "Dao" is in all things, there is nothing and nowhere that Dao is not; having no preferences, etc... 

So yes-  But, on the other hand, it does not seem apart from Dao either ... that it shares some qualities. You are right, Heaven is not apart from Dao and the (good/positive/light/thrive) qualities it represents are half of the whole - but Heaven is no more the whole any more than an arm is the whole body...or that there is light with no dark. Or so it seems to me. 

10 minutes ago, thelerner said:

One year I started using the Ignore list function.  It slowly grew.  People who annoyed me, had different opinions, made grammatical errors, the very young, the very old.  Soon I was the only one left. 

 

I had the bums to myself.  ahh those were good days. 

LOL I hear ya.

There's only one person on my Ignore list - Drew, aka voidisyinyang or whatever his latest incarnation is - but only because the length of his repetitive cut&paste posts fill my pc screen & when I'm on phone it's a nightmare. I'm glad others have quit quoting him - as that causes the same probs. 

fwiw - my 'good old days' include RonJeremy, FatherPaul, & the other real Bums. But...all things change and you and I still seem to be here, eh? 

9 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

Gave this quite a bit of thought today. Not sure why.

 

I understand your feelings and feel bad for you being upset as you have a legitimate beef but this place is not a safe haven and the few places that are all lock step our way or the highway like AYP are pretty boring and dead unless you drink the Koolaid you are out as in subject Verbotten banned unless it has to do with the approved mind set and promotes an agenda often monetary in nature.

 

If you do not already know this I would like to introduce it to you.  IDIC. 

 

IDIC was a phrase coined by the late Gene Roddenberry you know the visionary who created Star Trek. It is supposed to be a Vulcan thing. 

 

The Vulcans (Think Spock)  were warlike and driven by passions ( That were beyond what humans experience in terms of emotion)  which drove them to near annihilation by Nuclear Arms because they could not reconcile the differences between sects and nation states on their planet. Then came Surak the prophet of logic and the reformer.

 

With him came IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination.

 

This forum is a bit like that.  So what if some get out of hand now and then and act up or insult?

 

Try to remember Infinite diversity in infinite combination. 

 

Failing that well awww fuck em anyhow who gives a shit what a bunch of mamby pamby jack wagon button pushing stuck in their own heads with nothing better to do fantasy people got to say anyhow?

 

Who fries the fish? Who brings home the bacon? Got it?  Get real. This place is a nice hang out but if you think for one moment you will meet an actualized master or someone with something really special to teach you forget it. 

 

There are some very real folks here but you have to leave the screen and get into the world with them otherwise you are just playing games.

 

Try being worthy, be loving, considerate, kind tolerant and patient those are the real super powers not anything other.

That ^^^ is the best post I've read in a very long time.

Good job, Pilgrim.

15 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Ok , then,  say  ,Sam gets bitten by a dog, , the next dog he sees gets processed as a threat, Sam feels fear and figures he is afraid of the dog, so his awareness is the last to know. He meditates and finds that his awareness is secondary to-  a mysterious underlying construct.

Your thoughts here elude me, which is good, because then I'd have to think about it. 

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think it must be around the definition of the word "think". That's why it seemed to me you and Spotless were talking about two different things. When you push the keyboard letter "t", do you really believe that it happens without you telling your body to do it or move in that way? It does now, lol. Or are you saying that you have conditioned your body into automated subconscious responses to me, so there is no need to think about it?  Could be. I think about very little these days.  

 

Leaving the discussion in good humor  

(Next time I'll think before I jump in. lolol )

7 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Dumping the word thought ,,, 1) do we not process data prior to being consciously aware this is going on? , and

2 ) are we accurately aware of the processing that happened once we are aware of the summary? 

I think its yes , and no. 

That may be closer to it, yep.

33 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Don't see how there are two levels of thought.  If you type on a keyboard to respond to me, is there no thought that drives the typing? Or in your terms, is it only a thought if you create a mental echo in your head?

When I first learned to type..frequent thoughts were: Now where is that 'g', where is that 'u', etc. Now, typing my response to you - my thoughts are..."Ok, how can I explain this clearly..." There is no thought as to where each finger should press.

It's the same with flying. I am a pilot. (Private, single-engine, fixed-wing, land, 500+ hrs). The 'mental-echo' you refer to...as in "Oh, There's a cross-wind. Maybe I better correct" was there in the very beginning... but now, as conditions change responses and adaptations become second nature.

I understand the posts about hoping your pilot 'thinks'. Me? I'd rather fly with someone that doesn't need to take the time to figure out what to do. But that's just me.

To me it seems there are 2 levels of 'thought' being discussed: the underlying non-thought type Spotless refers to - and Jeff's different kind of thinking...wherein we think 'about' something.

Well, that was clear as mud.

Never mind.

7 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Getting the mind out of ones way and reined in as simply a minor but useful asset is the bigger trick for the sleeping to Awaken to.

Maybe. Let me think on it.

Kidding aside, good post & I agree.

Nice to see you, btw. 

12 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

*walks into the forest...

 

"hmm... all the damn trees looking and acting so much alike!"

 

"fuckers!"

 

 

 you are on a roll this morning, ST. 

LOL @silent thunder

We should have the option of clicking more than one response button.

Like and Laughter both! (you know, same time, heheh)

5 minutes ago, escott said:

At first I thought I would just stay out of this discussion because I am relatively new here. But, that is precisely the reason I think I need to speak up. I have learned so much in the time that I have been here and I have gained do much encouragement to move forward on my current path. I feel like I'm starting to make some friends here and am so thankful for the advice that some have taken the time to give me through PM.

 

I would be very sad to see knowledgeable, experienced people leave because of a few trolls. Hopefully I'm not giving myself too much credit here, but I think it's pretty easy to spot a troll and their BS. Can I ask why people just don't ignore their BS and not respond to them? What do trolls want most? ATTENTION. Am I wrong to think that if you just ignore them they will go away. As long as they are not inciting violence there is no need to ban them, just don't encourage them.

Hi escott - belated welcome to TDB! Glad you are enjoying the forum; it is a unique place indeed.  

I agree with you, trolls and BS are easy to spot. It might be some folks like to engage with them, for a variety of reasons. Their own buttons got pushed; or cat&mouse practice; or nothing better going on in the forum...there are slow times, sometimes.

In my opinion, IF a 'knowledgeable, experienced' person left JUST BECAUSE of a troll - that person probably needed a break from posting for a while and may or may not come back. Some of us have been doing this, here and elsewhere, for decades and after a while it's just the same thing over and over...lol. As you've discovered - there are still many good folks around, and some of us will never leave...haunting TDB appropriately. 

It's all good. Even when it's not.

Warm greetings!

thanks  

27 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

 

Having a difference in opinions is what makes us unique as individuals. Disagreeing about things is also of course valuable. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But it's another thing to be told that your opinion has no value, that you are wrong, that you don't matter, and when you try to point out the error of someone's way of communicating this to you, it doesn't seem to get through.

It's hard to express in words accurately what you mean. Sometimes there is confusion, misinterpretation and a misunderstanding.

When people follow you around in different threads just to have a pop, that's trolling.

Yes, it's trolling - but it can also be of value to you... if you take the opportunity to explore why you let some idiot's behavior bait you or bother you so much... or, you could just put them on Ignore. That's what I do, lol. Idiots don't bother me; I just choose to not spend energy on pages and pages of hooey.  

10 hours ago, OldDog said:

.....

 

It would seem that the practical application would be for us to move between the two positions allowing the experience gained through the practice of emptying the heart-mind to inform our actions in the world of the manifest; that is, be in accord with time and change.

Picture like a number line:    empty<-----------------------I------------------------>full

The extreme ends of the two positions are:

empty: shell existence, mindless 24/7 meditation, fully in Mystery only. Nice work if you can get it. LOL

full: complete hedonism etc, fully in Manifest only. Again, nice work if you can sustain it. LOL

Either/or mindset straddles the center, alternating between the two positions - like hopping on one foot in the empty - and then on the other foot in the full. As one gets closer and closer to having a blended perspective, i.e. feet hopping closer to the center point between the extremes,  the empty does indeed inform the full more often; as you clearly expressed above.

But when a tradition puts too much emphasis on one side or the other - by trying to deny or suppress half of the whole,  it not only denies what is natural - it prevents an individual from finding their own natural and blended balance.

Having one foot in the Manifest and one foot in the Mystery, simultaneously and neither hopping, is what I call Both, same time. Full is always there, enjoying whatever comes (good and bad) - and Empty is always there, unboundaried in full support, to inform, temper, and when needed - mitigate.

At least that's how it is for me.

10 hours ago, OldDog said:

The part about the way of Heaven singling out people I find troubling because it suggests Heaven having a preference based on special qualities we might not have any control over. Sounds particularly un-Daoist to me. Maybe its just my western religious sensibilities getting in the way. What makes more sense to me is constancy in the way of Heaven and people by their efforts in cultivating gaining Heaven's favor only by aligning with the Way.

Heaven having a preference (not just in FH's post) bugged me too until I learned that in the DDJ  "Heaven" is not the same thing as "Dao". Life wants to thrive and grow, yes?  'Heaven' would promote that, so  something going against 'Heaven' would not thrive.

But that's not the same thing as "going against Dao" which is not possible...and a whole 'nother topic.  

10 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

Certainly, there will be those more adept than others but I can only speak from the point of view of the common person.

 

Just thought I would put this impression out there.

 

Glad you did - it's fun to talk about these things!

Warmest regards

3 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

 

I know for a fact that this is most definitely NOT the case. 

Right.

3 hours ago, lifeforce said:

Moderators take note. You really need to get your heads together, this place is turning into a swamp.

There are certain individuals here who bring nothing to the table.

Nothing constructive, nothing about life experiences or practices or anything to do with the Dao.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a social media platform where people are shot down because of opinions and viewpoints.

We all know who they are.

Sort it out please.

3 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

You are traitor of mankind.

Yes. Yes I am.  

3 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

 

This is not the point. 

Of course it is.

You want those who you consider disruptive/non-contributing/whatever to be stifled. You have a preference as to how others should behave...and your words suggest that something of value can only be found in what you find to be of value. I dont think any of us is smart enough to know what someone else might find value in, learn from, or whatever.

Second note to moderators:

Unless there's a TOS violation going on - please continue to leave us the fuck alone. 

Thank you.  

Moderators take note.

There are a handful of people who think TDB should be just like they want it to be.

They should be immediately banned.

That's all, thank you for reading.

Wonderful post, Old Friend!

May I reply more fully when next on PC?

Phone typing sux

On 3/7/2019 at 5:49 AM, flowing hands said:

 

 A wise person remains empty, empty of preference, emotion, material possessions, etc and so is  like the Dao, because he remains empty he can embrace all peoples and all things. The more he gives to others the greater his emptiness and self cultivation becomes, and so nearer he is to the Dao.

This reflects an "either/or" mindset. In this case - it's "either" empty, "or" full. Your words shows your preference for the "empty" half of the whole, and that is fine; we each have our own understanding of these things, and you have a lot of company in the Eastern Traditions that emphasize the preference for the empty/yin/negative  - over the full/positive/yang <-- which is embraced by Western Traditions (generally speaking) and is also fine. Either/or thinking is difficult to overcome...and people usually land on one or the other - rather than discovering that all things are actually: both, same time.

In the DDJ, LiEhr teaches "Both, same time" beginning in Chapter 1.

The Feng/English translation says:

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. 
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations. 

To me, this says that we need both for balance; and that both at the same time is the natural way. 

Most interpretations of Ch1, especially those done with Buddhist/etc slant/bias, translate these lines to means that one should have no desires at all, because that supports their perspective and tradition...and the remainder of those translations follow the same starting point. Your words above reflect this thinking as well; the preference for the empty, which again is fine, but it's still an 'either/or' mindset that seeks a methodology to suppress half of what is natural..rather than integrating both halves of the whole.

There are lots of examples in the DDJ about both, same time. 

As above, so below. Know the white, keep to the black. Sometimes breathing is easy, sometimes breathing is hard. Would you have it any other way? And so on... Other (non-ddj) ideas also reflect the both same time idea: All yang contains yin, all yin contains yang. Every action, and non-action, is one of equal and simultaneous creation and destruction... etc. Both, same time. 

But people will pick & choose from the DDJ that which supports their particular side of 'either/or'... and have difficulty perceiving that, as individual manifestations, we are both separate and unboundaried-non-separate at the same time.

Quote

 

The way of Heaven is to single out those people and life forms that are 'special' and so use them to help the world and its people.

It remains with those life forms it has chosen to help the world.

A wise persons work is to self cultivate into non action, seeing the world turn and evolve at its own will.

Today, in another thread, you said you are not returning to TDB.

As that is the case, I wish you well on your path.

Warm greetings. (-:

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Yes, but can anyone see Uranus in this pic? 

Only after Taco Bell supper.

12 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

What is the Dao of a Tree ?

 

Should it slump towards the ground or raise up in response to the sun/heavens?  Think Heliotropism of plants.

 

A tree can live (be nourished) due to the benefit of heaven and earth.  

 

So should man. 

 

The Dao of water likewise displays attributes that we can say, so should man. 

The Dao of a Tree - is to flourish, or not; to grow, or not; to slump towards the ground, or not; to raise up in response to the sun/heavens, or not; and in its own time, and by its own nature (dao) to eventually wither and die. Such is the way.