rene

40 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

This was the first time that happened. I don't actually get "attacked" that much. Usually it's just people clinging to me for whatever reason. I'll feel my energy levels dropping over time and then realize what's happening and send the hitchhikers back home. This event was very different. If I had been alone I probably wouldn't have recognized it for what it was but fortunately I was sitting with a clairvoyant who was able to observe more clearly than I.

Yet, she saw it after you signaled the pain in your eye. Too bad she couldn't see it sneaking up on you.

1 hour ago, redcairo said:

I am gradually starting to believe that our species actually has a need, a genuine NEED in capitals, for what amounts to a 'coming of age trials'....

RC Agree. For at least 2 generations now, kids have been 'bubble-wrapped'. I'm 63. We all used to jump in the back of an open pickup to ride to wherever... now, if your child isn't buckled into the correct car-seat until they're age 8, then you are a horrible parent. I broke my arm once playing outside. Now, kids rarely break a sweat without mom or dad right there with a tissue. Not to mention the 'being raised by their phones' aspect; the 'trials' they face now are so different, and not very healthy, imo. Especially now that they need a 'safe-space'...at the college level?? WTF?? I was a kid when I learned how to deal with a creep. It was those early lessons that taught me how to handle aggressive jerks without needing #MeToo. An entire class of VICTIMS is what we have now - instead of adults, who went through their own trials, and figured things out for themselves.

@rideforever

Your heart is in the right place; good luck with your efforts, for sure. Is there anything you are doing in real life - or is it your mission to push Bums into action of some kind? Your posts contain much pushing... are we a practice ground for you in some way?

48 minutes ago, Stosh said:

What my mom used to say to me , if I was getting picky , was that if I didn't like that color candy , then I didn't really need to get any at all.  And so , she would say, ' if you think the world is so bad , then leave it'. 

 

Moreover , if the world handed everything to you on a platter , and all of it was sugar and spice , there truly wouldn't be anything for you to do , nor reason to do it. The world would be rendered useless boring and totally pointless. 

 

If you think this is some kind of fake perspective.. consider the number of people that die right as soon they they retire.

The rich and famous who burn themselves out, or consider the rich powerful exec, or brass , who goes to a madam for regular spankings.  The world must be understood to be benevolent in that it is NOT all heavenly sweetness , that one does NOT have a guaranteed road-map ,,  ( as handy as that might seem )

But , if you think benevolence is only served up an silver platter , and just as you like it ,, well you just aren't going to get this point in the intended manner. And you're going to think that everyone who takes the world as the package deal , that it is , calling it good just like that  - a bullshitter. 

 

+10.

And that^^ is what underlies the phrase: It's all good. 

Not that everything is heavenly sweetness, but that even the sour is a gift.

Sometimes breathing is easy, sometimes breathing is hard.

Would you have it any other way? Not me.

Laozi agrees:

Twenty-nine (F/E)

Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it?
I do not believe it can be done.

The universe is sacred.
You cannot improve it.
If you try to change it, you will ruin it.
If you try to hold it, you will lose it.

So sometimes things are ahead and sometimes they are behind;
Sometimes breathing is hard, sometimes it comes easily;
Sometimes there is strength and sometimes weakness;
Sometimes one is up and sometimes down.

Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses, and complacency.

2 hours ago, oak said:

 

And believe me, right now I wouldn't mind changing my life for the life of a jellyfish!

 

Aw..you just need to get to Denmark. Any word yet?

46 minutes ago, windwalker said:

"The CDC's parasitic division estimates that hookworm is the second most common human helminthic infection (a helminth is a parasitic worm"

 

"

• Infections Associated with Walking Barefoot.
• 1.1 Hookworm Infection. ...
• 1.2 Strongyloidiasis: ...
• 1.3 Cutaneous Larva Migrans ( Creeping Eruption) ...
• 1.4 Tungiasis. ...
• 1.5 Tetanus (for more info see #36) ...
• 1.6 Injury and Bacterial Infections. ...
• Animal Bites and Stings Associated with Walking Barefoot."

 

My thoughts, don't care much for parasites,  which are also natural to most environments.

Well, aren't you just a bundle of joy.

🦋

.

I play the kantele but not nearly this well

It conveys, yes.

3 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Thank you.

 

I reached for my three copies of TTC. They list that line in very different ways!

 

Feng/English: "In dwelling, be close to the land"

Mair: "The quality of an abode is in its location"

Wang: "In dwelling, best by adapting to the place"

 

The Wang translation best expresses my current approach to sane living in an insane environment. Mair captures my desire and intention to relocate to the north western rain forests. Fend/English go in a different direction. They express the importance of being in contact with the soil itself, of getting your hands dirty, so to speak. Three translations. Three completely different points of view...

Something for everyone!

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

The more you have, the more you need...

 

I live in one of the biggest cities in the world (Los Angeles, home to 10+ million people [in the county]) and I spend most of my time in quiet solitude on a 6 thousand square foot (548 square meter) plot of land, surrounded by a cacophony of cars, dogs barking and neighbor's music. I withdraw into myself because I cannot withdraw into the nature around me. Such is life. This metropolis has motivated me to seek peace in a way that all the trees and brambles and bubbling brooks never could have. Oh, sorry - I'm wandering...

 

 

Not wandering at all, imo, and that shows a modern application of something found in Ch 8!

You know the line...In dwelling, live close to the land ?

When I was working with Dr Wang on his translation - his treatment of that line was:

In dwelling, best by adapting to the place.

Sounds like you've found a way.

10 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Do we really think that Lao Tzu is advocating a country that eschews technological advancement (tying knots to keep records vs writing on parchment), or where the people never trade with neighbors (people never travel back and forth till they die of old age), or never train and prepare for warfare (they may have armor and weapons but they have no reason to display them)? I seriously doubt that! Rather it seems to me that this passage describes the ideal internal state of the people. In other words people are not boastful or egotistic (show no weapons), are content with their lot (never travel) and are simple in their needs (tie knots to keep records). So if we are looking for ways that Lao Tzu is wrong and we think this kind of passage is a "smoking gun" then we are missing the point of the TTC entirely, since it's not about external reality but internal.

 

 

LiT - right. And - here's where the difficulty lies between translations.

The chapter you quoted by Mair - has almost an "instructional" tone to it, i.e.,....Let them have... They may have ... it feels almost like LZ is giving them permission and/or instructions.

Where the Feng/English translation is different... and uses Though they have.... which feels more of an observation of how their ways affect their life. fwiw - imo -  the 'internals' of this passage are that simpler (not necessarily un-modern) ways can bring more peaceful times. Much to be said for the elegant simplicity of life.

F/E 80

A small country has fewer people.
Though there are machines that can work ten to a hundred times faster than man, they are not needed.
The people take death seriously and do not travel far.
Though they have boats and carriages, no one uses them.
Though they have armor and weapons, no one displays them.
Men return to the knotting of rope in place of writing.
Their food is plain and good, their clothes fine but simple, their homes secure;
They are happy in their ways.
Though they live within sight of their neighbors,
And crowing cocks and barking dogs are heard across the way,
Yet they leave each other in peace while they grow old and die.

********

@wandelaar - I understand what you are looking for. It will depend on the translation you pick, if there are any to be found.

IMO - any "errors" in the TTC would have arrived from the translator thinking s/he knew what Laozi was intending to say; and if s/he thought LZ was writing an instruction manual. Lot's of folks think the TTC is a how-to-do... instead of a 'how-to-be'.

On 8/9/2018 at 9:19 AM, rene said:

 

Precisely.

 

And that's why I continue to spew about Both, same time... i.e., embracing Tao while living the best tao we can.

Why is doing Both so good, imo? Because understanding the way of Tao - helps to mitigate the 'lows' that inevitably come in tao.

 

Without this understanding - Tao becomes nothing more than a neutered and stylized version of a benevolent God.

14 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

Ah let me take you up on this! There is only one Dao although it manifests in billions of ways. Even though one might not think one is doing things with Dao, one is! Go back to our first verse of Li Erh. We only have some insight into the balance of Dao when an action upsets this balance, but then this is Dao also. Confused? Yes we are now getting into the deeper edges of understanding.

Awww... I think you don't like my T and t to try and talk about these things.

You, me, and even Li Erh use(d) words to try express in ways something others could dwell on. If he'd have asked me - I could have shown him how easy it is to make no sense whatsoever... until it does. 

I've become lazy. I meet people where they are and engage with language they use - rather than rely on the wordless clarity to convey... but then so do you. "Balance of Dao" indeed. LOL  

We do what we can, yes? Not everyone swims in the deep end of the pool and what could be better than that!!

Thanks for your words.

6 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Yes, but since we don't actually know what Heaven wants we have to infer it by looking at the results. If everything is great then we infer this is what heaven wants. Likewise if everything is bad then we infer that is what heaven wants. 

LiT - when you say "Heaven" - are you referring to Tao or the tao that includes human sentiments?

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

Yep , but keep in mind , the idea of a god , some kind of personlike manifestation , who cares , who makes just decisions etc , is far more easily relate-able , and this shift in perspective ,therefore, has a huge advantage. 

So before the articulations of the Classical thinkers , there were the daoists for whom spirits and gods were resposible for running the show , AAANNd , again afterward I believe there was a good deal of reversion Back to that kind of understanding. 

So while FH , ( and HE)  is in a totally different mindset , ,, I really like his renderings of TTC ,,, they're very good. 

Yeppers.

Folks usually find something that works for them where they are.

All good.

20 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Do we have to come up with a solution that cannot possibly be misused? Don't think that is possible, surely not from a Taoist perspective where good and bad are inextricably mixed up.

Not sure why anyone would 'have to' - but I'm not Taoist, so I'm not familiar with what their mandates are.

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I agree basically that , the physical world always conforms to the constant principles of the tao, that being said, yes one must always be physically acting in a manner predictable as regards physical laws.. however,, a sentient creature with free will , can make decisions , make errors , have preferences , and so, has some leeway, ( which provides an opportunity to hold a standard by which individuals and society , may be regarded, by other people , sharing that standard.) beyond that , of the proverbial billiard ball. 

The Great Tao , is factual non-dualist , holding no opinions, no sentiment, no judgement etc  , it is true and inviolable ,, 

 tao Lower case !  is the behavioral construct humans think conforms to the great tao , but in fact includes human sentiments.  

 

 

Precisely.

And that's why I continue to spew about Both, same time... i.e., embracing Tao while living the best tao we can.

Why is doing Both so good, imo? Because understanding the way of Tao - helps to mitigate the 'lows' that inevitably come in tao.

Without this understanding - Tao becomes nothing more than a neutered and stylized version of a benevolent God.

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Yes - this discussion about "following Tao" comes up time and again, but we already had it solved some time ago. Actually it is quite simple:

 

1. In a metaphysical sense everything follows Tao, because Tao is the way the world works.

2. In a metaphorical sense "following Tao" means acting in a way that minimises egocentric considerations and makes a maximal use of situations and developments that are already given.

What a simple and elegant solution you found!

Sadly, the clarity of your metaphysical sense is usually lost buried in the mundane world of justifying one's actions, creating systems, and selling products... using 'aligned with tao/following tao' for marketing purposes.

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

It is perfectly possible to not follow Tao in the second sense, and in fact most people do so because they want to shine as the one who got the job done. A Taoist would prefer to stay in the background. Same thing as LiT wrote.

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Sure, and I have an older thread about it in my personal section. But, basically there was a major shift (or world turning), and with that change the overall "energy structure" was changed.  Think of it like there is a new and upgraded electrical grid. Many of the people who were on the old system did not make the shift. You could also sort of describe it as some older lineages (and the energy that flowed with them) are no longer active and valid. Also, the ones that switched have vastly greater potential. I have described this in the past as divine realms or beings being more accessible. 

 

It is very wide spread, though many don't really notice it. For many in the past, their energy would make them feel spacey or feel/see stuff in some way as it was pushing them at the edges of their consciousness.  With the loss of it, there is not the spacey vibrancy, and so they feel "more themselves" or quieter.  The ego/mind then likes to think of it as being more clear or empty, when really it is simply the loss what was pushing them at the edge in the first place.

 

Additionally, some spirit beings that may have been a source of power/energy in some traditions/lineages no longer have any juice.

 

So it is really that you have way more energy flow then before, or you have way less.

Thanks! Any guesses as to the causes of that ^ (bolded) ? I understand the 'how' of it..wondering more about the 'why' of it - if that makes sense, lol.

3 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Yes a funny picture speaks a thousands words.

...

rideforever - thanks for your reply.

Though you didn't state it specifically - it reflected your idea of the existence of both the dual and the non-dual but, for you, not yet simultaneously.

Also, if you would, when you quote me (or anyone) please leave a little in the quote box so we know which post you're replying to. This time it was an easy guess.

Thanks again!

46 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Lightseeker - There is a major challenge with your searching for power (or talismans, etc...).  There has been a major turning in the last year or so, and with that shift, many who previously had some energy flow no longer do (or it is greatly diminished). They may describe it as being more empty/quiet, but it more like the tv channel they were watching went dead. Many of what you could call the old ways/lineages (or power sources) have simply died/ceased.  Your goal of simply being able to use power on or too control others now does not work that way any more.  If you want to access greater power/energy, it is not found in some old teaching, or some mental trick that someone shows you. It is found by first opening your heart to the people and world around you. Found by first quieting your mind, and finding the deep peace within you. Finding that peace, one begins to naturally radiate.  That natural radiating, when "intent" is added to it, is most likely what you are looking for (related to powers).  In the Tao Te Ching, it is called becoming the "stream of the universe".

Could you speak more that (bolded part)? How widespread do you find it to be? Thanks!

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I do agree with you though.  Lao Tzu was an optimist.  He thought that the common man would always do the right thing given the freedom to do so.

 

In reality we know that's not true.  Some people do the wrong thing just because they can.  And bottom line, that's why there needs be some form of government within any society.

But doesn't that make LaoTzu a Realist, like you?

You know it's always possible for the weather to do the 'right thing' and be perfect for tending your garden...but you always have a Plan B, knowing it will probably be sweltering.  Laozi's Plan B - was writing this cool little book... knowing the common man as well as he did. If he was an optimist - his Plan B would have been redundant.

49 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Hmm ... nope, that's not right.    For life to exist, it has to be non-deterministic.   There must be room to manoeuvre, room to take action.  

 

There is "duality", but frankly human apes have such slimey reasoning that this word is immediately becomes an argument orgasm !!!

 

If there was only a nondual whole, then it would be a nonmoving dot.   The fact that I open my eyes and see the sky and the birds, means something is happening, hence it is "dual" .... in fact these words dual/ non-dual are just the slimey human mind looking for an argument orgasm.

 

Fortune favours the brave.

 

Existence opens lees in the ice, will you accept or reject.   It is a constant adventure / test / challenge.   That is life, life is hazard.

 

Low creatures would perish in this environment so they are given support, hence all the programming animals and humans have, but humans, some of them, are emerging from that programming to come into their own being.

 

It is just like at primary school : you are helped, and helped a lot, but .... so that you one day spread your wings.

 

Do you have free will ?   ... the question is can you acquire free will, and how.    Would you actually like to use the free will you have now, and take a risk.   Many human apes refuse to use any of the resources and possibilities they have.    

 

Laozi talks about "The Ruler" ... it helps us to understand things to talk like this.   But in reality there is never one ruler, things are never black and white, it is a vast connected system of beings and forces.    But; when an observation is made, we make it through identifying something specific ... "The Ruler" does this or that.    Then our intelligence takes one step forward.

 

Jesus would says "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, body, soul, mind".   And people around him start shaking their Rosaries and getting on their knees raising hands to the sky, praying, and hitting Bibles on their heads.   Jesus, rolls his eyes again.

 

Laozi, writes poetry of the world he knows.   People read and repeat like parrots, they want to follow the "instructions".
Laozi rolls his eyes again, and walks out of the city, leaving his writings with the guard at the gatepost.

 

 

 

Nice post! You give good argument for there not being only non-dual.

Do you hold there is only dual?

Do you see how there could be both duality and non-duality in play at the same time?

Thanks!

***************

Edit to add:

Jesus would says "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, body, soul, mind".   And people around him start shaking their Rosaries and getting on their knees raising hands to the sky, praying, and hitting Bibles on their heads.   Jesus, rolls his eyes again.

Laozi, writes poetry of the world he knows.   People read and repeat like parrots, they want to follow the "instructions". Laozi rolls his eyes again, and walks out of the city, leaving his writings with the guard at the gatepost.

Love it!!

55 minutes ago, Stosh said:

No, its just favorable to me because it's the fact of what has been related to me. When I first looked at daoism , I was very open to whatever was going to be described. I wanted something to tell ME about things , I wasn't looking to fit my expectations. 

Right, even though that isn't what I was meaning...

55 minutes ago, Stosh said:

As it turned out I was  surprised !  at what , mostly Lao , was saying. Eventually I came here , essentially, to find out if my conclusions were correct. I have never seen anything which contradicts my original conclusions, nor have I had anyone present a better basic understanding of the texts, in a way in which undermines ,what I believe they relate. 

Also agree that this place rocks, and I'm glad you're here; you always seem to put a finer point on things - and I like that.

55 minutes ago, Stosh said:

What I have come to understand , is that there are schools of thought, a Shamanic or religious angle , casual modern 'Neodaoism', legalist readings, and a scholarly view centered on linguistics or history. 

While those are wrong , I have to let people decide for themselves the poison they wish to partake of

LOL yep.

Lemme try my question/thought again re "in accordance with Tao".

My starting premise is that Tao moves in ALL directions (at the same time) - so it's not possible to be NOT in "accordance with Tao". If I choose to do something really horrid - I'll suffer the consequences, yes. But that is not going 'against Tao' - unless one holds that Tao only moves in the direction of the non-horrid.

Once that ^^^  idea is held, it becomes very easy to create various 'schools of thought' - and in all cases the idea of Tao is downgraded (reduced in scope) to only those things deemed favorable, i.e., what one would want to 'be in accord with'.

For clarity: I'm all in favor of favorable things. And, I'm not using my (all directions, same time) premise as justification for horrid behavior (though that accusation is usually the first one to appear). My point is - once folks start assigning Tao to specific choices, results or actions - they've limited Tao not only to their own needs/preferences, but also to their own understanding of it.

What say you?

23 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I dont know, i’m pretty sure you’re badass you but i’ve developed an allergy towards warriorhood as people have tried to sell me some sort of warrior ideal and identity repeatedly and over time i’ve seen them eat themselves in their struggle to embody the Warrior. It comes with baggage and my feeling is when it is shed in the motion of transcendence it leaves more baggage behind... your regimen sounds awesome and all power to you however, dont get me wrong.

 

But a warrior?

A warrior does war. Are you at war? I’d mos def empower my warriorhood if i were in a war. But in times of peace? Nope. What do warriors do when there is no war?

 

Vikings traveled far and wide and made most of their connections through exchange and trade. Raids were for more desperate times, but a lot of the seafarers left their homes because their family or their land couldnt support them.

I love the sagas and history, being a Swede it’s part of my cultural heritage and society back then seems fascinating.

 

But what about the black wolf? You feed it when you feed yourself, it is because you are.

The white wolf too!

 

”Do not recitepoetry to one who is not a poet. If you meet a swordsman, draw your sword.”

Warrior at war, scholar at learning, student of all and master of you.

 

A warrior could be someone who has lived and survived war. That brings out stuff in people, like trauma, clarity of purpose, self reliance and whatnot. Those are survival and thriving skills. But they are not always appropriate... 

 

idk, does it make any sense?

Makes sense to me, Rocky.

And a hearty Welcome to the Longtable!...oops, wrong thread!!.