dwai

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

The Tripura Rahasya is referred to as an Advaita text Maharshi recommended, but this seems very clearly to be a Tantric text in my opinion

It is also part of the Sri Vidya Tantra tradition 

12 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I would say it depends on the person. People are very different. This is one reason why traditions are so broad and have so many techniques, teachings, etc. One person's essential technique is another person's pitfall. 

 

I think one of the largest errors I've come across in the Western spiritual scene is a lack of teaching on errors, mistakes, and side paths.

 

 

I don't know if it is even a Maharshi quote. As far as I know, he didn't speak English and most quotes come from translated transcripts of his oral teachings. I know that he, like others, initially was in the thought-free camp when he was younger but then become more relaxed about it later. In fact, that quote seems to come straight from the Advaita Bodha Deepika, which itself is a compilation text that was then translated. The status and necessity of nirvikalpa samadhi is hotly debated. But it is not clear to me whether ABD is referring to nirvikalpa samadhi or something else. 

 

But (with the above limits in mind), Ramana did not adopt this approach overall. In talk 54, he reportedly says:

 

"Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa samAdhi for years together, when he emerges from it he will find himself in the environment which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the AchArya emphasising sahaja samAdhi in preference to nirvikalpa samAdhi in his excellent work vivekachUDAmaNi. One should be in spontaneous samAdhi - that is, in one's pristine state - in the midst of every environment."

 

https://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/samadhi_ramana.htm#:~:text=Sri Ramana Maharshi puts it,the world is nirvikalpa samAdhi

 

I bring this up because there are famous, often quoted teachers with widely read English works that give misleading impressions that is often only corrected by oral teachings in person from these teachers or their direct disciples. Even written teachings leave a lot of out that is explained and clarified in person. 

 

Tripura Rahasya has a very nice chapter on different types of jnanis. I have quoted from it on the “continuous samadhi” thread. There is no one-size-fits all, in that, after realization, there is no homogenization of the “individual”. 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

It is in the space between thoughts most are apt to NOTICE and awaken, IMHO, but the experience of enlightened mind itself is, I agree, a continuous samadhi that has the flavor of (is?) 5th jhana, usually.
 

One of my earlier practices was to meditate on the space between thoughts. Very interesting experience when this “clicked” for me was when one day after asana practice I lay down in corpse pose and the mental chatter started flowing and then floated to the surface and a luminous clarity became apparent underlying the chatter, like a majestic river on which debris was floating. 
 

BTW what is the 5th jhana?

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Arisings in consciousness (including emotion and individual thoughts) never stop, but are lessened, and never belong to a "self" or have intrinsic nature, and pass almost immediately like all other phenomena. 

 

The Maharshi quote is an example of direct pointing, not necessarily the end of the path.

Thanks for pointing out “not belonging to a self” - it was a point I intended to make but promptly forgot  

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Sure, but keep in mind anything I say is only partial, limited, etc.  

 

Free of thought means a state where subtle visuals, sounds, feelings, and so on do not arise. Often referred to as a state of stillness. 

 

Free from thought means that thoughts come and go, and we don't try to cling to them or push them away. This referred to as movement. 

 

In some teachings, stillness= good and movement = bad. Accordingly, we should extend stillness and eliminate movement. The goal would be to have a vacant mind, free of thought. Even better if we can reach a state in which there are no appearances. The best of all is dying and then continuing in that type of state forever. 

 

Others disagree and state that movements and appearances are expressions of the divine. Not only that, but stillness and movement are not really two different things, and the underlying stillness is never really lost. The goal in this case is to stop getting confused by and entangled in thoughts and appearances, not in eliminating them in some way. Once unentangled, unobstructed divine expression manifests spontaneously and unimpeded. 

 

As Thrangu Rinpoche put it:

 

"It’s quite easy to think that the resting mind and the moving mind have completely different natures, and that when the mind is moving, the stillness has been lost. Some students think that they must clear away the movement before the mind can be at rest. They believe that there is a contradiction between the mind at rest and the mind in motion. In fact, both the resting mind and the moving mind are the union of emptiness and luminosity. We perceive differences due to our confusion. Stillness does not obstruct motion and motion does not obstruct stillness. They are simply one inseparable entity."

 

 

Hui neng (Platform Sutra trans Red Pine): 

"Deluded people who cling to the external attributes of a dharma get hold of One Practice Samadhi and just say that sitting motionless, eliminating delusions, and not thinking thoughts are One Practice Samadhi. But if that were true, a dharma like that would be the same as lifelessness and would constitute an obstruction of the Way instead. The Way has to flow freely. Why block it up? The Way flows freely when the mind doesn’t dwell on any dharma. Once it dwells on something, it becomes bound. If sitting motionless were right, Vimalakirti wouldn’t have criticized Shariputra for meditating in the forest."

 

AND 

 

"And what do we mean by ‘no-thought’? The teaching of no-thought means to see all dharmas without being attached to any dharma, to reach everywhere without being attached anywhere, to keep your nature pure, so that when the Six Thieves pass through the Six Gates, they neither avoid nor are corrupted by the Six Realms of Sensation but come and go freely. This is the samadhi of prajna. Freedom and liberation constitute the practice of no-thought. But if you don’t think any thoughts at all, the moment you make your thoughts stop, you’re imprisoned by dharmas. We call this a ‘one-sided view.’"

 

I agree with Thrangu Rinpoche and Hui Neng, FWIW

There is continuous samadhi interrupted by thoughts - only a few are able to recognize this. Given that, there is no need to try and eliminate thoughts - just not grasping is sufficient. 

And just because I can, I will add a 3rd part to this "puzzle" - Dzogchen. Some food for thought provided below -

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

There is a very large difference between being free from thought, and being free of thought. At least in some traditions. 

Please elaborate if you can - we're interested.

1 minute ago, stirling said:

 

Wow... thanks for that, friend. I have never heard of that text before. What a corker! Deep dharma there. Adding it to my reading list.

For those who might be interested - this kind of reading and meditating on the contents of such texts is considered AV meditation (aka nidhidhyasana). In fact, texts like Ashtavakra Gita, Tripura Rahasya, Yoga Vashishta are considered Nidhidhyasana texts.

24 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Of course, no practice enlightens. Confusing a practice with illumination is problematic, but to practice by resting in awareness, where the mind is empty and still, IS cessation (nirodha), the 3rd Noble Truth. There is no difference between the mind where it is still and enlightened mind, even though there is no realization of it. It is only re-identification with the contrived thoughts of the mind and  becoming a subject again that cessation is lost.

 

Therefore, in Maharshi's case, he presents the very essence of practice in many traditions. 

 

As Dogen would say:

 

 

.

This reminds me of another thread from another time -

7 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

But excluding transformative alchemical methods?

It depends on the purpose of said methods. AV doesn't subscribe to the view that the individual has to transform into something else. You are already the Absolute Reality, even if you don't know it yet. The problem is ignorance, so the solution is knowledge (as a direct realization of the Truth). 

If the alchemical methods will help you focus your mind and remove its impurities; by all means, try them.

The problem with alchemical methods is that they have tended to have purported objectives such as creating a "rainbow body" or transforming into something more significant—meaning something that you are not today but will become in the future. That perspective is erroneous and will divert the seeker from realizing their true nature and venture into what can be called "immortality projects" - which add to the ignorance that veils our true nature from us, therefore exacerbating the primary problem.

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Advaita Vedanta is the Non-Dual teaching contained in Vedanta (aka Upanishads). 

Advaita Vedanta posits that this (material world) is transitory—constantly changing. But underlying this, there is a changeless reality—which is Existence itself, Consciousness/Awareness itself, and bliss itself. Furthermore, you—the limited being who seems to live and die and suffer in the process—are none other than that changeless reality.

 

There is no need for major alchemical processes to transform the individual from a limited being to anything else—you are that changeless infinite awareness right here and now, only that you have forgotten it due to conditioning (society, experiences, etc.). All you need is someone to point you to yourself and help you realize your true nature. Once you realize your true nature, all your suffering, cravings, and aversions will fall away, and you can become free. 

 

What does one practice in Advaita Vedanta?

 

There are 3 main processes - 

1. Listening (sravana)

2. Contemplating (manana)

3. Meditating (nidhidhyasana)

 

How does one accomplish these processes?

 

1. Listening - find a realized teacher and listen to their teachings

2. contemplating - Take the teachings you're listening to and contemplate on them - how they relate to you, how you are able to analyze your own experiences to confirm empirically the teachings. In this, there are several approaches (called vicharas or analyses) where you use apply the teachings to separate the real from the unreal (viveka) depending on which one is given to you by your teacher -

- The Analysis of the Five Sheaths (panchakosha viveka) 

- The Analysis of the Seer and the Seen (Drik-Drishya viveka)

- The Analysis of Waking, Dreaming and Deep Sleep (avastha-traya viveka) 

3. Meditating - Integrate the experiential knowledge you develop as you proceed through the first two steps into a continuous meditation on the nature of reality (not the same kind of meditation as yogic meditation)

 

 

PS—The approach used, and its teachings are correlated with the Upanishads. For example, the Madukya Upanishad employs the Avastha-traya viveka approach (Waking/Dreaming/Deep Sleep). Usually the teacher will temper their teaching based on their student evaluation (for some a single approach will work, for others multiple approaches might be needed).

Additionally, there is also the prospect of a student not being ready for this kind of inquiry—they might have what is called "chitta mala" (impurities in their mind) or "chitta viskepa" (scattered mind). Different techniques are recommended to remedy these as preliminary steps (which might include yogic meditation, hatha yoga, service, mantras, etc.). Once the mind is sufficiently purified, then the teachings of Vedanta will be absorbed properly. 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

what exactly is AV?

 

Advaita Vedanta is the Non-Dual teaching contained in Vedanta (aka Upanishads). 

Advaita Vedanta posits that this (material world) is transitory—constantly changing. But underlying this, there is a changeless reality—which is Existence itself, Consciousness/Awareness itself, and bliss itself. Furthermore, you—the limited being who seems to live and die and suffer in the process—are none other than that changeless reality.

There is no need for major alchemical processes to transform the individual from a limited being to anything else—you are that changeless infinite awareness right here and now, only that you have forgotten it due to conditioning (society, experiences, etc.). All you need is someone to point you to yourself and help you realize your true nature. Once you realize your true nature, all your suffering, cravings, and aversions will fall away, and you can become free. 

What does one practice in Advaita Vedanta?

There are 3 main processes - 

1. Listening (sravana)

2. Contemplating (manana)

3. Meditating (nidhidhyasana)

How does one accomplish these processes?

1. Listening - find a realized teacher and listen to their teachings

2. contemplating - Take the teachings you're listening to and contemplate on them - how they relate to you, how you are able to analyze your own experiences to confirm empirically the teachings. In this, there are several approaches (called vicharas or analyses) where you use apply the teachings to separate the real from the unreal (viveka) depending on which one is given to you by your teacher -

- The Analysis of the Five Sheaths (panchakosha viveka) 

- The Analysis of the Seer and the Seen (Drik-Drishya viveka)

- The Analysis of Waking, Dreaming and Deep Sleep (avastha-traya viveka) 

3. Meditating - Integrate the experiential knowledge you develop as you proceed through the first two steps into a continuous meditation on the nature of reality (not the same kind of meditation as yogic meditation)

14 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Oh i had no idea, please forgive my ignorance! But... err, what exactly is its teaching and which exact Upanishad contains it?

Depends on what you want to learn  

There are several methods/practices of inquiry in different Upanishads. Start with the Mandukya Upanishad if you’re feeling lucky. It covers what is called the avasthatraya method - and goes into a deep exploration of Om. 

I started in the old-school karate Goju Ryu style back in the 1990s. I trained in Hapkido and Aikido for a few years when I moved to the US. I also started learning Taichi around that time (back in 2000), and eventually, I dropped all hard martial arts. I stuck with Taichi (initially Yang style and then Temple style in the system of Master Waysun Liao—which is what I continue to practice to this day). 

10 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 

As a principle nivritti / pravritti looks close to one of the uses of the kan / li trigrams:

☵ awareness collected inwards (like pooling water)

☲ attention dispersed outwards (as flame and smoke)

The mantra Om is basically a method of this inward collecting process. Om comprises of three syllables and the fourth part being silence - A, U, M (pronounced in Sanskrit as aah, ooh, mmm ). It is a model of the everything (aah) collapsing (ooh) into a singularity (mmm), and then silence/stillness/emptiness. A represents the material universe, U represents the process of returning/reversion, M represents the singularity and silence is emptiness. 

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

good job. Notice how every word in Daoism comes from a historical proven source, chapter and verse.  whereas '"Advaita Vedanta" language comes from nowhere;). what would that tell about "Advaita Vedanta" to a reasonable man?

It says a lot more about people who spout off without adequate knowledge on the matter of Advaita Vedanta

Advaita Vedanta is the teachings contained in the Upanishads - which are part of the Vedic canon. 

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

he was able to see a fundamental light everywhere including within himself, so it may well be possible to see this fundamental thing with a new evolutionary sense developed.

The big question is, is this literally light or  figurative light? 
We can see “light” - in Sanskrit it is called bhāti (shining), in all phenomena right here and now. 
 

There are five aspects of all phenomena/things - 

* asti - is-ness

* bhāti - shining 

* priyam - usefulness (even a heap of dung is useful) 

* nāma - name 

* rūpa - form

Of these, the last two are categorized as jagadrūpam (sign of the materialistic world) and the first three are called brahmarūpam (sign of Brahaman).
 

What people miss is the brahmarūpam aspects (in which the shining/light belongs) and only recognize the jagadrūpam aspects.

What happens after realization is the brahmarūpam also becomes recognized, hence “seeing light in everything, including within. Can it manifest as perceptible light for some? Maybe. People with synesthesia see colors associated with sounds, patterns with music and so on. 
 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Certainly no-one has ever come to understand it by thinking... and yet here we all, are wasting valuable time talking about it.

Know or know not, try we must 😇

The Philosophical Convergence of Daoism and Vedanta

Daoist and Vedantic philosophies, despite their distinct origins, share remarkable similarities in their views on reality, the nature of the self, and how to live in harmony with the universe. Two core concepts exemplify this convergence: the Daoist principle of reversion and the Vedantic concept of nivritti. Additionally, there's a striking parallel between the Daoist concept of wu wei and the Vedantic principle of nishkama karma.

Daoist Reversion and Vedantic Nivritti

Daoist Wu Wei and Vedantic Nishkama Karma

Stillness, Silence, and the Path of Return

Both Daoism and Vedanta place great value on the cultivation of inner stillness and silence. This stillness is not merely the absence of external noise but a profound quieting of the mind and its constant fluctuations.

• Daoism: Stillness reflects a return to the natural state of the Dao. Like still water reflecting the world without distortion, a still mind reveals the true nature of things.
• Vedanta: Silence and stillness are seen as vital for the inward journey of nivritti. In the silence of the mind, the illusions of the ego dissolve, allowing the realization of the true Self.

Key Similarities Across Concepts

• Return to the Source: Both philosophies emphasize a profound journey of returning to our original, unconditioned state, which exists at the core of our existence.
• Non-Attachment: Liberation is seen as fundamentally linked to non-attachment, whether to worldly desires, the fruits of action, or even the ego-bound sense of self.
• Inner Transformation: The realization of these principles requires deep introspection, inner transformation, and a letting go of limiting beliefs and patterns of behavior.
• Cultivation of Stillness: Both traditions see inner silence and stillness as essential tools for accessing deeper levels of awareness and the wisdom within.

While these philosophies hold nuanced differences in their specific ontologies and methods, the profound overlap in their core concepts serves as a testament to a shared human search for meaning, tranquility, and a harmonious way of life.

PS: generated using Gemini advanced

43 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

But this is a false duality. The presence of the words doesn't hide or impact the background, and the lighted background is needed for the words to appear. Nor does one need to eliminate or make the words go away. The words depend on the background, but the background transcends any and all words. 

This is akin to how before one knows what a mirage is, it

is mistaken for water. Once it becomes known what a mirage is, a mirage still appears to be a body of water from the distance,  but one understands it is just a mirage. 

On 4/21/2024 at 10:58 PM, Small Fur said:

let yourself be a great student and observer to the life within yourself; to not fear to uncover, discover and adventure across your own ravines and mountains; for somewhere in its inner depths lies the Mysterious Passage- a dimension without place, an entry without lock, a recognition of the true self within the Great Tao Yin.

It is ever-present, but sadly overlooked because people always look for some object to latch onto. It’s like the absentminded person who’s wearing his glasses and looking for it outside somewhere…how do you know you have eyes? 
 

From James Swartz 

There are so many ways to explain this - but it requires a truly open mind to understand/realize. If one’s mind is preoccupied by concepts and ideas, then it cannot truly accept the knowledge (indirect though it may be). If it cannot accept the knowledge, how can it realize? 

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

ok, we have heard that many a time which does not take into account evolution of the soul,  (although and granted the Self, which could be said to be the Soul of the soul does not evolve) anyway we could say all beings will realize such by the end of the cosmic cycle, ready or not.  

What soul? 

On 4/17/2024 at 9:20 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

 

Causal - I am undifferentiated awareness. I see thoughts arising within the space of awareness. Awareness will be there when thoughts cease. I effortlessly exist. I AM.

It is not the I AM, but awareness enveloped in inertia. That which you call “unknown” is the I AM. 

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

all beings will be enlightened per that returning ...

all beings are already enlightened - they just haven’t realized it yet 

7 hours ago, S:C said:

@dwai could you provide us with a translation of 

Quote

Kshanikam - Momentary

Sarvam - Everything

So the Buddhists say - "Everything is momentary" (impermanence)

Khalu - Verify

idam - This 

Brahma - Brahman (the ground of being)

Advaitins say - "Everything is verily Brahman"  (Permanence)

The two seem mutually exclusive. But are they? Everything is certainly momentary/temporary, but does that mean Brahman is also fleeting and temporary? This can be understood by the statement, "Samsara (everything) is Nirvana (liberation), and Nirvana (liberation) is Samsara (everything)."

The Advaitins say that "everything" is perceived as separate, ephemeral objects because the knowledge of Brahman (Pure Consciousness) is not realized. When the realization occurs that all things appear and disappear in Brahman alone, then the confusion is dispelled once and for all.