dwai

23 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Good question. Thanks!

This is where we begin. Mitochondria decompose the glucose from the food by oxygen we breathe to produce ATP(energy) . Our body is an oxygen dependant. Normal people do not breathe as much oxygen as Qigong or Taiji practitioners do. The practitioners increase the number of mitochondria in their bodies. That means they can produce more energy.

 

Hi CD, 

 

I find that normal people breath a lot more than good taiji or qigong people.

 

Have you heard of the term “turtle breathing”? There is direct correlation with frequency of the breath and both longevity as well as the state of mind (which ends up being a feedback loop into the system). 

 

A seasoned practitioner will only breath 5-6 breaths in a minute. Some go even lower. If you are standing in ZZ and hyperventilating, you are going to increase your BP, raise your Qi to your chest and head and essentially sooner or later blow a fuse (go nuts or have other psycho-physiological problems). 

Maybe you’re not being able to get your thoughts across properly. 

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

I like to keep things simple, most old school Kabbalah gets sophisticated very fast, though much of the modern 'pop' stuff is on the new agey side of things.  Not necessarily good or bad.  Thus the Kabbalah I do is Abulafiah, a form of chanting, thus it wouldn't be considered Kabbalah at all, rather sacred sounds.  Not dissimilar to the kotodama of Shinto, with concentrations on long vowels.

 

My shower practice is Rawn Clarks YHVH canticle, which is Hermetic, done in Hebrew and has a mantra of the famous Rabbi Nachman Ribbonno Shel Olam (Master of the Universe), within.  Talk about a hybrid. 

 

Nachman was wonderfully practical mystic.  A practice he had and recommended to others was talk to God.  Daily.  Establish a relationship with him, personal in your own tonque.  Tell him your problems, your successes, pour out your heart to him.  Not an easy thing to do.  Easier to blog 

Do you find a need to reconcile your Daoist practice with your Jewish one? Or do they more or less blend into one another?

10 hours ago, Walker said:

 

Many Daoists would disagree with this statement, and say an awakening to reality is little more than a taste of one's potential if it is not embodied.

It is important to understand what embody means. How can ice embody water any more than it already does?

Can a wave embody the ocean to it's fullest potential.  

10 hours ago, Walker said:

 

It is taught that special powers are indeed not needed or required to have a taste of one's nature. But to use your wood-door analogy, a Daoist might say that a door realizing that it is entirely made of wood does not mean that it will turn back into a tree again, much less return to the state of a sapling, seed, or what it was before there was even any seed; much, much less will it be free to be any of these things in response to circumstances, or nothing at all.

Yeah the thing with analogies is that we can't stretch them beyond a certain point -- if we do, silliness ensues. The wood-door analogy served the purpose it was intended to serve.  

10 hours ago, Walker said:

 

As for whether or not the "shift in perspective," as you put it, is permanent, to be certain there are Daoist teachers who will state that it is not, unless you totally complete xing-ming cultivation. In some esoteric teachings, it is even said that successfully creating a yangshen and having one's yuanshen ascend with it upon death of the physical body is only a temporary release; eventually the yuanshen will have to return to earth or a place like it to continue to practice with a body, until the body is--(how to put it?)--resolved. As for realization without even the creation of yangshen, then this is said to lead to a sort of extremely-long-lasting enlightened ghost state.

The body will be resolved when its karma is completed.  

Liberation is not of the body-mind unit. Liberation is from the body-mind unit. That is enlightenment -- the body-mind unit doesn't become enlightened -- enlightenment is a realization of its True Nature. I bring back the dreaded Door which thought all this time that it was a door, apart from the wood. But then it realizes that it has always been wood. Only wood in a specific name, form and function.

 

Who seeks "immortality"? Ask yourself that question -- the answer will become evident. 

10 hours ago, Walker said:

 

It is taught in some schools that, for a practitioner who is practicing alchemy, even something like passing away in seated meditation and leaving a corpse that does not rot is not considered a particularly high achievement. The only sign of success for those who ascribe to these teachings is turning into non-existence when leaving the world, which is akin to the sort of achievement called "light body" or "rainbow body," such as was achieved in Vajrayana Buddhism by Padmasambhava and, it is recorded, masters of other traditions such as those in India and--rumor has it--Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

 Where does this "rainbow body" go?

How does one know 'non-existence'?

These are not rhetorical questions...

10 hours ago, Walker said:

(To be clear, though, there is a difference in Daoism between "special powers" which arise naturally, and those which are sought and specifically cultivated. There are much firmer warnings about the latter category, and even teachers who emphatically state that specific training for any type of special ability is already something other than cultivating Dao)

Yes...the jivanamuktas (Liberated while in a physical body) naturally have special abilities. Not everyone has the same ones. Many of these manifest due to the predilections of the body-mind unit (karmic tendencies, etc). Here liberation means breaking the cycle of birth and death. Not by becoming a perpetual spirit being (which is a prison too). All such perpetual spirit beings have their own karma and have to still come back to what is called a karma bhumi to exhaust the karma to become fully liberated. So long as there remains an identification with a story (however exalted it might be), it is not true enlightenment or liberation. 

 

10 hours ago, Walker said:

I understand that people might reject this as a false teaching, but this kind of thinking is common in many Daoist teachings, and probably worth at least entertaining for contemplation if one has enough affinity with Daoism to be participating in a discussion like this. 

Lao Tzu's Daodejing is the highest level of Daoism there is.

10 hours ago, Walker said:

These are interesting teachings but to be honest I have not heard the handful of Daoists I have studied with teach about them or place emphasis on anything similar. 

It is not a daoist teaching -- it is from Vedanta.  

10 hours ago, Walker said:

 

 

A Daoist grand-teacher of mine (I have not personally met him, although he is still alive) has discussed this. He calls this the realization of the 法身/fashen or "Dharma body," a term that comes to Chinese from Buddhism. It is, to be certain, a marvelous accomplishment for any human to realize. But it is not synonymous with the creation of the yangshen or the total resolution of xing and ming. Therefore, it is not considered an ultimate or permanent state, for a Daoist. Another Daoist grand-teacher of mine (who I did meet, although he has been gone for several years) addressed this, stating that this is something fundamental that separates buddhas from immortals; thus what you discuss is indeed a permanent state, called buddhahood, but not the permanent state we could call xianhood or hsienhood or "immortality."

This xianhood is a prison of its own (I've noted this above). It is a golden prison for sure. And might provide a billion years of contentment. But what then?

10 hours ago, Walker said:

But this, to me, becomes too speculative and esoteric to warrant discussion. Again, we run the risk of being Saharan ants mapping Himalayan glaciers... Not only a waste of time in the present, but also could lead us to draw conclusions about what we think we're doing and where we think we should be going far, far too early.

Actually, it is useful for those who are ready. Not many are...  

14 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Oh I meant it very much with tongue in cheek

 

 

Yes - I think I understand your perspective. So body-mind unit would be considered dualistic in your scenario?

Body-mind is name, form and function.
 

It is an appearance. Countless come and go, like waves in an ocean. True Nature/Awareness is the ‘substance’ which body-mind is made of. 
 

So consider body-mind as apart from True nature — duality. Consider body-mind not apart from True nature  — nonduality. And if this body-mind is True nature /Awareness, all

body-minds too are True nature/Awareness. Why? For those who don’t know yet, it is a mystery to be solved. Only way to know is to figure it out. 
 

 

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

I know I'm in trouble when Dwai leaves a laughing emoji on my post! 

 

 I only laugh because I found your "whack on the head" point amusing  

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

We keep going round in circles primarily because you don't seem to accept that I 100% agree with you on this.

 

You're not debating a materialist Dwai.

 

You keep pressing this point - that 'reality' fundamentally is 'consciousness' and materiality arises from that or is subject to that. I keep saying yes - I agree - this is clearly the case as stated quite clearly in Daoist philosophy and quite apparent experientially in meditation.

 

So let's try again.

 

Yes - I agree, Dwai

 

 

Precisely.

 

 

I'd make a slight edit before I agree... after one embodies one's True Nature...

I think there a very subtle perspective nuance that I'm not able to get across in words. True nature doesn't need embodiment. 

 

The subtlety of view is here -- The body-mind unit cannot embody true nature, anymore than a door can embody wood. Just as the door is through and through wood, the body-mind is through and through 'True Nature' (though I prefer to use the term Awareness). The 'realization' therefore is, simply a shift of perspective. And it is permanent. No special powers are needed or required -- just our everyday experiences are sufficient  

 

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

And the test for having fully embodied your True Nature and no longer operating from the 'old vantage point' - is when your teacher swings at you with his stick, he 'hits' nothing but light.

I'm saying there is no need to. Just realizing what we truly are, is sufficient. All other "activity" happens in the realm of duality/Maya. 

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

Another way of saying this is: from the Daoist perspective (and from the esoteric Buddhist line I'm familiar with) materiality isn't a plane of existence apart from consciousness - it is consciousness. It is one part of the full spectrum of consciousness.

 

 

Matter isn't just subject to consciousness - it IS consciousness. Consciousness doesn't just have 'primacy over materiality' - they are one and the same thing.

 

Physicality is like - say the blue wavelength within the full spectrum of pure light.

 

So 'full enlightenment' from that perspective is both spiritual and physical - because they are one and the same thing.

 

It can't not be physical - (unless it's not full enlightenment.)

 I'm saying it doesn't need to be physical at all. It is simply a permanent shift in perspective. The wood doesn't need to do anything to the door for it to become wood. The door (bare with me this dumb example) isn't separate from wood. The door simply needs to recognize (if doors could realize things) that is wood through and through. Knowing this, the need to separate "Self" and "other" goes away. 

 

To bring in a bit of Vedantic thought in this discussion (as you know, I'm a mutt that way) -- 

 

Every phenomenon has five aspects. Name and form are the ones that the mind knows and body interacts with. The other three are Being, Illumination and Love. Each and every aspect of the phenomenal world only has name and form because of this Being (Existence), Illumination (Awareness) and Love (Bliss).  What does that mean?

 

Even though from a utilitarian perspective, Names and forms appear and disappear, and have function, their True Nature is Being, Awareness and Bliss/love. This is available to us every where, all the time. When true awakening occurs, this (B/A/L) is constantly recognized. Nothing more is needed to be proven or shown. Yes, maybe to shake a student out of spiritual slumber, sometimes teachers might invoke a "whack in the head" (show of power etc) -- but it depends on the student and the teacher. There are teachers who merely look at the student and awaken them (Ramana Maharshi being one such famous sage). 

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

So when one realises their True Self but remains physically unaltered - this simply means that what has been achieved is an awakening - but not a full transformation. Full transformation includes physicality and much more.

 

The confusing thing is that the 'mechanics' of achieving this are basically the same... Absorb - let go -> absorb - let go -> absorb - let go.

 

It's another thing that seems to confound Xing-only cultivators... despite what it might seem like, the way Daoist practice achieves all of this is through absorbing and letting go.

 

Not by adding - not by 'creating' - not by developing - not by building... even though these concepts are used as mental models for a utilitarian understanding of the process. The fundamental principles are Ting - absorption and Song - letting go (or release).

 

 

There's 100X more 'self-realized' individuals who are right this moment manipulating, abusing and sexually exploiting their followers. This is one reason that knowing the different levels of awakening is crucial.

Then they are not self-realized. What purpose does the Self have to manipulate anything or anyone? All is the Self. 

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Many people have had awakenings - and full of genuinely benevolent intentions go ahead and become 'spiritual teachers'... But their transformation is far from complete (even though 'completeness' and a sense of having 'finally arrived' is a hallmark of their personal experience at these stages).

 

Completely blind to this (and usually having left their teacher) they slowly but surely succumb to their 'human animal' drives - usually with all sorts of complex machinations to obscure the truth and perpetuate willful ignorance... both in their followers and usually in themselves too.

 

That's what I mean by 'haughty spiritual states'. Haughty because the personal experiences are full of bliss, compassion and equanimity - but under the surface, there is much that is left to transform. And the behaviour that can result from this sort of awakened person (if they stop further spiritual growth) can be quite horrific - (partly because socially protective emotions like guilt and shame have been let go of... and partly because as there is 'more light' in the system, the untransformed aspects create a much darker, deeper shadow than before)

Sure...the letting go might happen in layers, all at once. We call it vāsana-kshaya or erosion of karmic patterns. To go into why these things happen (why after awakening one might succumb to these behaviors for a while) is dependent on whether these patterns erode suddenly or little by little. But one cannot really go back to their old ways entirely, if they've truly awakened.

 

But one cannot rest on their "laurels" either, so to speak. My master meditates 8-10 hours a day (and he's been at it for about 50 years now) even though he doesn't need to. He prays for the well being of people, animals who are suffering and so on.  When he's not doing that, he is serving his family, checking on his students, and so on. That is one way.

 

Another way is to simply serve one's family and loved ones, community selflessly -- at the soup kitchen,  temples, churches, etc.  That is another way.

 

The other is to simply retire to a hermitage. 

 

Some others, simply go back to their old lives -- live their lives and act as shining beacons of light simply by being themselves. 

 

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

So to make this discussion a discussion and not a reactive back and forth - before you mark this post with that dreaded laughing emoji and then line by line try to discredit what I say with technicalities - why don't you feed back to me what I said in your own words. Just so I can see whether you understand what I'm trying to explain or not.

I'm sorry you felt that way about the laughing emoji. If you and I were sitting across from each other, I'd still laugh, and so would you -- but not at each other. I explained the reason for my laughing reaction -- "whack in the head"  

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Only if you wish to discuss this further, of course! I personally think it's a helpful discussion for the people reading along!

Of course. I'm loving it  

 About "Weather magick" -- Yes I know of one teacher in my lineage who encouraged his students to practice affecting weather. Unfortunately he is no more in this world -- but from what I've heard, he was legit. 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

People that come to Daoism from a Xing perspective often see Ming as the 'support' for Xing...

 

 

This sort of thinking underpins that idea.

 

The Daoist response would be a swift wack to the head.

Talk  about missing the point. Yeah,. Whack on the head might hurt, but that doesn’t mean the primacy of consciousness over matter ceases to be. There still needs be a consciousness to both produce the ‘whack’ and ‘receive’ It. 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The premise being - that it may be "true" that form is an illusion - but that is not the case for you and your throbbing head.

depends on the perspective from whence ‘you’ operate. If you operate as a jumble of matter which manifests consciousness (mind), then yes. Usually after one realizes one’s true Nature, they don’t operate from that Old vantage point anymore. 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

At certain stages form (even physical form) does become "illusion" - in the sense that it becomes as malleable as a mental form... exemplified by handprints and footprints in granite stone and other 'siddhi' - like physically transforming into light and so on.

yeah, but the reason is not what you think it is. Matter is subject to consciousness — that’s why it happens. It all comes down to consciousness/awareness and the unveiling of the mind. 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Most Xing - based cultivators are quick to denigrate these siddhi as examples of seeking powers instead of spiritual growth... But in fact, from the perspective of Xing-Ming cultivation - exactly the opposite is true. The siddhi are merely a demonstration of one's true depth of absorption into the underlying fundamentally spiritual reality.

it’s a two way street. Many don’t go beyond siddhis due to being stuck on the Siddhis. 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The spectrum of consciousness is not limited to some haughty spiritual planes - the spectrum includes everything - including the gross physical reality.

 

Sometimes that wack to the head is not a teaching tool - but a test to see whether 'substance is also illusion' is actually true for you now.

 not haughty. It’s your mind that presumes the haughtiness, because you’re so caught up on your perspective. It is an observation - a statement of fact. 
 

There are yogis and sages in India today who can not only do what you’re saying, but also other feats powered by their siddhis. It has nothing to do with Self-realization. They all operate within the realm of Maya (veiling). 

6 hours ago, JustARandomPanda said:

Does anyone know the title of the vid Dwai linked? If so I'd like to find it and listen to it

12 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Wonderful, sounds similar to the Buddhist traditions as entailed in the Noble Eightfold Path or even in the Eight Limbs of Patanjali  

They come from the same source.  

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That wasn't the point I was disputing or thinking was questionable. I've had breathless meditation many times, it's a wonderful still and powerful state. And no, one does not die. But whether just sitting down and doing breath meditation and entering breathless states leads to full development and rejuvenation without going through the a very specialised Ming process - that's the muddy water part.  As I'm sure you've already read by freeform - the methods that are involved in the ming process are hidden and part of lineages - and freeform has emphasized on multiple ocassions that they're not natural at all, and you wouldn't guess them.

I'm suggesting that there is more mystery built into these than is necessary. The path to enlightenment is via the purification of the mind. And no one can, or should tell you that you can't become enlightened -- all you need to do is take sincere steps towards it. Whether we reach it in one lifetime or many is not up to us. The grace of God or Guru is sufficient to lift us out of complete darkness -- but we have to take the initial steps. 

Quote

So if that's the case it seems that just entering breathless meditation states would not lead to the same type of development as would happen if you went the qigong-neigong-neidan route. But what do I know  

That is simply not necessary (or compulsory).  

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

My point to that is perhaps more on the Ming side of things. If you're given a crap body through genetics and poor karma or just poor life circumstances that leads to poor health that leads to a requirement of lifelong substitution therapy (duly note that levothyroxine T4 thyroid drug is the most prescribed drug in the US) with drugs and other medical interventions -- perhaps focusing on mastering other aspects of life and then building merit is the best use of one's time. That being juxtaposed to spending 2-3 hours per day doing Qigong and Neigong stuff working on the physical level (Jing to Qi -- that may not work because of your physical issues) to transform aspects of your genetics that you were born with or arise from the environment you're situated in and unable to leave.  

Though you directed the question to freeform, let me chime in  

 

Yes, Karma can result in issues with the physical body. It can even result in issues with the mind. But there are other ways to circumvent these problems. You don't HAVE TO DO Qigong/Neigong to purify your mind. There are other ways -- such as mantra meditation and such. 

 

In the Indic/Vedantic tradition there are three main issues in the realization of the Truth. They are as follows --

 

1. Chitta vikśepa -- Scattering of the mind. For that you do meditation practice. Breath work. 
2. Chitta Mala -- Impurities of the mind. Some come karmically, some come as a result of the food we eat, the environment we expose ourselves to. To resolve this -- do selfless service. 
3. Chitta Avarana -- Veiling of the mind. This is the primary cause for someone to not recognize their True nature. In order to address these, first start working on 1 & 2. And then start learning from a Master (in-person is best, but other media can work as well -- video lectures, books, etc). As you learn, spend time in contemplation and eventually meditation. More the mind is purified, and ability to focus increases, the more the knowledge will start to "click". And it becomes a geometrically progressing system -- progress will accelerate as you spend time in it.

1 & 2 are always preparatory stages. But they needn't necessarily be sequential. There are overlaps with 3. 

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If the chance of one making it is so insanely slim and it being next to impossible -- perhaps it is better to focus on loving-kindness, Pure Land cultivation and Xing aspects of cultivation such as shared in both Hinayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. If we go by the Hinayana Buddhist texts, it's clear that the Buddha says that one who cultivates loving-kindness (metta-bhavana) will enter the Brahma realms upon death along with 10 other great benefits listed below.

 

 

Alternatively, if we use the Tibetan Vajrayana school or go by Mahayana thought one can use Amitabha's grace to enter the Pure Abodes upon death. Allegedly, those realms are inhabited by a Buddha who will teach you directly.  In the Pure Land it is described that there is no frustration, no sickness or pain, no problems of male and female. And when one is there, one is already a Bodhisattva and one will naturally enter into the unregressing Bodhisattva stages on the way to Buddhahood.  

 

The biggest issue as I learnt it is that to get there requires incredible mind-power in the first place as you have to move nearly 3 thousand great-thousand worlds away from the Earth. In Vajrayana or esoteric Buddhism, I believe this method is known as Phowa. And from what I hear, to get there, one must be able to open the crown chakra. 

 

... Big questions! Form vs. essence.  

To add to the confusion... there's also Master Nan who says stuff like this ... 

 

 

Quote

 

Clear as mud?  Haha.  

Not at all -- it is an experiential fact. When you enter samadhi, the breath will stop on its own. The breath moves with the movement of the mind. It is not unnatural to go for extended periods of time without breathing. And no, you don't die.

 

When it first happened to me, I went several minutes without breathing, without mind. And then the mind kicked in, and panicked at how long it had been since I last took a breath. And then it reactivated along with the breath.

 

I put Qigong, pranayama etc under the methods of fixing problem #1 I've listed above. Whether they are needed or not, depends on the individual practitioner. There are no 'one-size-fits-all'. 

 

PS. One might wonder, "All that is about the mind. What about the body?"

The answer may be, "Fix the mind and the body won't bother you anymore." 

But it might also be, "Fix the body first, and the mind will become more manageable."

Mostly, it they are mutually complementary. Maintain healthy habits for both mind and body. Take the medication that is prescribed to make the body comfortable. Don't take so much that the mind gets clouded. Even if the mind is clouded due to medication, you can still reduce the impact of the mind by following steps 1 & 2. 

 

Last and most direct, and most powerful step (bonus #4) -- Pray sincerely for help to your deity of choice (provided it is not science). 

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I agree with you.

 

But it's important to understand that Ming is more than internal power. Power is one aspect of it... Consciousness without substance is transitory beyond certain formless realms.

'Substance' is part of the illusion too.

But nonetheless, I think we'll end up talking past each other beyond this point. I appreciate your perspective, and respect the background/context it comes from. 

 

This is after all, a meaningful discourse, and not a pointless one at that. 

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

Qi is the mediator between heaven and earth.

Heaven and Earth too are manifestations of that One Awareness.  

To some these might just be words...for those who've tasted from the well, it is something else. 

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

When you met your Daoist teacher you got a taste of Ming. I can't say more than "keep going!"

 

 I am -- and grateful for it. It is way beyond Ming. But he doesn't discriminate between xing and ming. He transmits the knowledge directly. 

 

I should clarify here that I don't mean to put down Ming cultivation or methods per se. If I come across as dismissive, that is not my intent -- I've seen too many people struggle with methods, techniques, elaborate practices -- that is their journey and their karma. But it helps if someone calls it out from time to time -- "The truth is hiding in plain sight...right within your heart!" (even if they don't recognize/understand what is being said at that juncture). 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Alchemical Daoism is a later development to DDJ.

 

Although it is based on a yet older work than the DDJ (the Yi Jing).

 

The DDJ represents the Xing path - it does not represent Xing-Ming as we're talking about here. I think that's why you have a preference for it - because it confirms your existing understanding.

It is an advanced text.
 

In older times, Ming cultivation was not such a big deal — people naturally had more internal power, because of their lifestyle. 
 

Even today, if you go to a ‘real’ rural area in Asia, the people there naturally have more internal power than their urban counterparts. 
 

The internal power degenerates and degrades when the mind is used more in a scattered manner. The more scattered the mind, the more Qi is lost. Urban (modern) people tend to have this problem more than rural (less modern). 
 

That’s why when you’re cultivating Ming, you quieten your mind, make it single pointed and enter emptiness (samādhi). 

 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

It's certainly one of the most important Daoist classics - but by no means is it the entirety of the Daoist canon.

 

It is considered that the meditative training that the DDJ gives (and it's clearly a meditation manual - not a guide on how to rule the people ) leads one to self-awakening.

 

The alchemical path takes self-awakening as a start and leads beyond it... by incorporating the DDJ's Xing mechanics with Ming cultivation.

I think this is backward — but it’s your way, so if it sails your boat, more power to you  

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I understand that for many people this will be highly controversial - and I'm afraid I have no interest in discussing that any further.

 

 

One of them has already "met" you

Ooh! Who is that?  
 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

Why not unveil it and just say ‘you’re addicted to complexity’
 

I’d love to see you raise that point during classics study with my teacher 😄

 I'd love to meet your teacher. 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I could say that you’re addicted to simplicity... but I don’t think that’s true. You just have a predilection to Vedic thought which attempts to point at truth.

As you attempt to do here:

 

Vedic thought is not a predilection -- it is my heritage in this human form. All spiritual traditions point at the truth. It is our own limitation which makes us miss the proverbial moon (Truth) for the finger (method). 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

This is nice. I quite like it - it’s certainly poetic and ‘true’ and simple.

 

This is not how Daoist alchemical knowledge is expressed - it imparts sophisticated procedural understanding. Which is indeed complicated. It believes the simplicity, truth and poetry can only be experienced - not talked about... by following the path you can experience that.

Before you've tasted ice-cream, reading about it won't help knowing. After you've tasted ice-cream, if you hear someone talking about it, it will make perfect sense. Typically the kind of knowledge that is shared in the vedic/indic context is for people who are qualified for the knowledge -- which implies having a certain purification of the mind. But there is a cross-over across traditions after a certain point -- and that point is when one is able to discern between phenomena and the subject. Ice-cream tasters will be able to relate to ice-cream discussions irrespective of which cultural context they come from. 

 

This really is not about me or you being right. It is about whether someone will gain something valuable from such discussions (given the egalitarian model of the internet). So, whatever I share, if someone can benefit from it -- happy for it. For those who can't understand it -- maybe it'll make sense in the future. 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Different ways of approaching the same end.

I agree.  

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I’m not sure how this is of any relevance. It just highlights your misunderstanding of the Daoist path or some wilful act to demonise or denigrate something you don’t understand.

Not at all. I understand the Daoist path quite well. My commentary reflects more on my observation of "modern" daoists, more than Daoism itself. I think Daoism in the Lao Tzu vein, is a pure non-dual teaching -- very direct, very powerful (and most don't understand it because of their unpreparedness). 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

Another misunderstanding... Daoist classics read very differently to Vedic ones because their approach is very different.

For me, the highest Daoist classic is the Daodejing. To even begin to understand it, one needs to work with Xing. 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

The mechanic in practice is indeed always letting go - that’s clear. But in Daoism linear, conceptual frameworks are very important. For Daoist cultivators 90% of time is spent on practice which is based around letting go into form. 10% is spent on structured study of the processes underpinning your practice. The nature of the forum means that only that 10% gets a look-in - meaning one’s view of practice is skewed.
 

In Vedic thought pointing to truth in poetic ways is more important. But scratch under the surface and talk to some real Yogis and the same complex alchemical formulas and procedural instructions are taught behind closed doors. 

I don't think you know much about Vedic thought.   

It is not a poetic way to point to the truth - there is a direct transmission -- but like the daodejing, you need to have a certain level of clarity and purification of the mind to understand them. 

1 minute ago, freeform said:

That’s true 

But there is a lot more to it than that.
 

This is very important from the Daoist point of view.

 

Qi is not related just to the mind - but to everything. 
 

As Walker explained so nicely - the Yangshen has form. The form is developed through a specific interplay between Qi and Shen... The Qi gives form to the formless so that consciousness can absorb.

 

In alchemical thought everything - including the light of Yuan Shen have a substance... with internal alchemy this substance can be worked with... going from etherial to substantial and generating a density... then consciousness has a form and some density to absorb into... even though it’s just light.

 

Some schools put more emphasis on the skill of absorption - some put more emphasis on developing form out of the formless... Both are needed. That’s Xing-Ming.

 

Qi is both the fuel, the glue and a transformational agent. Qi makes an experience of awakening into a permanent place to reside and operate from...

 

And there are several transformational leaps beyond what we normally talk of as ‘awakening’ - which are only accessible once consciousness is fully absorbed and stable at this awakening stage.
 

This is way beyond reach for the majority of us - but the Daoist approach makes it somewhat accessible.

The mind and ego are addicted to complexity. More complex, the more the ego loves it. Challenges to overcome, victories to attain.  

1 minute ago, freeform said:

If you reach and stabilise the ‘awakened’ stage - many people consider this to be enlightenment. In the traditions I’ve been involved in, this is not full enlightenment. Although you may operate in a blissful, compassionate, still and equanimous state for the rest of your life, you’ll become an ‘astral being’ at the time of death and eventually be reborn.
 

It’s considered a trap along the way because it feels like you’ve ‘arrived’ - but actually you’ve just taken the first (rather massive) step in your spiritual journey and got entranced by the scenery. This is where most spiritual systems lead - and end.

 

The problem with this is an assumption that there is a "beyond". There is no "beyond". That is a confabulation of the ego-mind.  

The scenery is the phenomena that one gets attracted to. Powers and siddhis one develops -- nothing but parlor tricks in the grand scheme of things. 

 

Samsara is Nirvana. Nirvana is Samsara. 

Form is void. Void is form.

 

It is very apparent, but just reading words doesn't work -- seems like riddle. It is not. It literally is what is stated. Knowing this directly is all there is -- and it can only be realized by giving up, not acquiring more and more techniques, methods, powers etc. 

 

Quote

 

 

This is the wisdom of the Daoist (and some other ‘tantric’ traditions) that use Ming cultivation to create Xing transformation.

Since I’m a simpleton, I say — 

 

Ming cultivation trains the mind to become ‘Clean’ and one-pointed (mind and Qi are related).

 

Once the mind becomes sufficiently purified and  focused, real work with consciousness can begin (Xing). This is called Self-inquiry in the Indic traditions.  

9 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

since buddha nature is permanent and and this incarnation is not, it follows this incarnation is like a matrix or computer simulation inside the real world of the buddha nature. it is inside the buddha nature. so it does not come with it, because buddha nature is it's essence and cosmically it is it's source. as well as it's 'God' or sustainer.

Actually Buddha nature is everyone’s true nature. There is no “within and without”. It’s like how a door is through and through wood, and it is not apart from the wood. Or ice is nothing but water. There can never be ice apart from water. 

2 hours ago, steve said:

Kabbalah is not taught publicly or freely and is considered very holy and potentially dangerous, not at all heretical. Students need first to demonstrate a deep knowledge and understanding of Torah and Talmud. After that a study of Kabbalah may be offered in small group or private sessions. It’s similar to how tantra and dzogchen used to be treated.

I have it from a very reliable source that Chabad lubavitch school/sect of Judaism is very open to the mystical side, as well as is the only Jewish sect that acknowledges reincarnation etc.  

5 minutes ago, steve said:

 

And one, in particular, is exponentially gaining power in American politics.

It's frightening...

Indeed.

48 minutes ago, thelerner said:

As dwai found there are many Jews and rabbis involved in various meditative arts that are pretty open to studying other religions.  My temple which is reformed, part of the education of the kids was to field trip to Catholic cathedral to listen to priests, a mosque to learn from a imam, etc.,  My parents temple, like many sponsor quarterly interfaith dinners and lectures with all the religious centers around them. 

 

In the bronze age idolatry was real, lots of gods.. tribalism was everything.  You lost a battle and your tribe was gone, poof.  It happened alot.  These days the rabbis who label things like yoga or bowing during karate as idolatrous are really 'fundamentalists' trying to protect the youth from corrupting influence.  ie its not about idolatry, imo.  Just worry about the modern world corrupting or seducing members.

 

Those less fundamentalist are open to cross culture experience.  These days idolatry is more about over emphasis.  While realizing the divine in the ordinary world, don't worship stuff, or yourself, or your car.. 

TBH I find the Jewish religion 

 to be least troublesome in the Abrahamic world. It is not an expansionist religion and while insular, there is a lot of depth to it metaphysically. 
 

The other two on the other hand, have wreaked much havoc through the ages, since they got politically weaponized. Their onslaught is still ongoing in places like India.

 

Hindus don't worship Idols. They worship Murthis. There is a huge difference -- when we consecrate a deity in a murthi, it is given life, literally via the ritual of consecration. The murthi becomes the living personification of the deity. 

 

This is an article written by a highly respected practitioner scholar friend whom I've known personally for almost two decades now. It does a very good job of explaining the process.

 

https://www.medhajournal.com/how-does-the-prana-prathistha-ritual-convert-a-lifeless-ritual-into-a-living-murthi/

 

The problem with non-dharmic traditions is that they don't do their homework and build strawman arguments to prove the 'greatness' of their tradition to themselves. It is not only intellectually dishonest, but also intellectually deficient. Dharmic traditions don't blindly follow any book -- ours is a lived, and experiential tradition.

 

That said, I've had very good experiences with rabbis from the Kaballah tradition. Apparently there is an entire group of rabbis whose job is to research and understand the various traditions of the world. They are not rabid doctrinaires, but erudite and intelligent practitioner-scholars. 

 

In my discussions with one such rabbi, who heads such a group in Israel, the only difference was that they (jewish tradition) don't consider the ability to merge fully with God or Self-realization per the Non-dual hindu traditions to be possible. They agree that we must all definitely be part of God, but we can never understand God/deny the God-nature of each sentient being (which is what Nondual hindus will say). In that sense, they are closer to the qualified nondualists/dualists of Hindu tradition.

1 hour ago, idiot_stimpy said:

I believe a lot of my practice has revolved around Xing cultivation with Ming cultivation being largely forgotten. 

 

My only concern with working with Ming is developing an energy state that's too much for me to handle as I do not have accredited teacher.

You can start off on some good online training via The Taichi Tao Center or Adam Mizner's school. 

 

28 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Really enjoying the conversation, thanks to all involved.  I have a side question that may be a derail, if so, please ignore.  I'm just sideline curious of an experience that manifested in the last three years or so.

 

Do the classics mention anything about 'internal scents'?  Smells generated and experienced only internally?

 

For a few years I've experienced intense scents that are repeatedly confirmed that no one apart from me is sensing.  They seem to arise from within.  One is unique and highly pleasant and nothing I can put an identifying label on... the other is decidedly unpleasant and smells of cigarette smoke.  They are both exceedingly strong to the point that everyone in the room should also be smelling them, but nada, zilch, zippo.

 

This stands out particularly for those who know me well as, living where I do in the desert, my sense of smell is notoriously dead for long periods of the year.  Where only the most intense scents can pierce through to awareness.

 

Again just curious, ignore if it's off topic.

 

 

I've had situations where I've had internal scents manifest during taichi practice.

 

There was a period of time  with the smell of cannabis being smoked, though no one around me had lit up. It turns out that someone was 'checking' me out (a meditator in a Himalayan cave) -- and it seems like he was smoking cannabis. 

 

There are specific smells that manifest when someone connects with me which help me recognize them. With my master it is the smell of the incense he burns in his prayer room. With some other friends its a distinct (not unpleasant) odors, but nothing I can pin a label with, yet I know them by the combination of tone and scent. 

 

I'd recommend reading this book. The author covers the topic of scent with shared presence  -- https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Default-James-Swartz-ebook/dp/B07NJYTVH5/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

 

Thanks for sharing. BTW, iinm, CMC was Cheng Man Ching (not Chen).  

15 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Ah, yes, i see.

 

Being inducted by my sifu to his tradition of southern chinese daoist deity-service the formalities of offering incense and conducting introduction and specifying the dealings with names, honorifics etc is for the sake of the deity or spirit as much as ourselves, far too sybolic and specific to be considered as just mood setting.

 

Once a well established report is in place formality goes into either shorthand or is quickly dispensed with, but essentially there is a social aspect to relationships with higher beings.

Even if you’re well acquainted certain observations are important, in the beginning it establishes respect and a space to commune, later on they represent affection and intimate respect.

 

But thats a whole different tradition, pardon the intrusion

The ritualism is good too. I didn’t mean to trivialize it.
 

Anyone who sees Hindu religious rituals will know how much emphasis there is on ritual. 

 

There is an entire formal system of practice with fire rituals combined with mantra practice and is actually the oldest form of Hindu practice (done even to this day). 

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

 

Thanks for this, will give it a go and let you know. Always slightly nervous of invocation stuff however do seem more and more drawn to this style of practise of late. 

 

Only comment I would pass is that previously I've been told to use my solar plexus for this type of work, which has driven results but seems more connected to other parts of 'myself'. 

The heart is the key. If this doesn’t awaken, one can’t progress imho. 

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

 

  

Neither do I so I looked it up - apparently sound progresses through several different levels as your ability to interpret 'improves', I believe the next levels pass through 'cymbals', 'flutes', then 'bells' before 'rolling thunder' at the final stage.  Cicada's is an early undeveloped stage.

 

As part of this background search I also read that the ability to improve your interpretation seems to be linked to balancing the sounds between your left and right ears and focusing in on the sound, to the exclusion of all else which I'll also try. It would appear that the trick is to lengthen or 'slow down' the sound so you can better interpret it.  

Don’t know about levels.  I’ve gone through the cymbals, flute, bells, thunder etc much before the current tone happened  . That happened when I first started pranayama some 20 years ago.

 

We just have to remember that these too are phenomena. They will help us in some ways, but are not the end by any stretch of the imagination.  

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

 

Lastly whilst writing this I had a sharp tone change with increased pitch and strong mood swing, more a rising heat than compassion, but still was interesting.