dwai

Between 12/21 and 12/25 the kindle ebook version will be on sale for 99 cents  

Happy winter holidays  

11 hours ago, welkin said:

 

This is fair. Sorry. i caught myself backtracking instead of progressing 3/4 into writing my last post. what i meant is i walk to the park,  hug/sit by the trees, observe the squirels, look at the blue skies and clouds and am just there with no purposeful practice or for any solution. Though i do practice if i want. I observe the homeless people and try to understand, feel, and learn from them. i'm there doing it without purpose, just to be. This is what i truly meant.

 

There are deeper aspects of myself that i chose to neglect and i know exactly what they are. And you are right, a purposeful solution is not necessarily the solution. Trust me, i know what you mean. i do want to work on those things and will. Thank you, honestly. Even in our interaction here i caught myself quite a bit.

 

to clarify, by work i don't mean processes and solution. i mean finding happiness, joy, love, all those things which is all hiding currently.

 

 

Sometimes we just need to create some distance between the self and the mind. When/if you realize that you are neither your mind nor your body, you will be in a better position to observe and not constantly react. I'm not suggesting that you do (constantly react) -- but more as a generic statement which can be beneficial to most modern human beings.

Some days, everything works like clockwork, and things naturally fall into place -- people, work, feelings, thoughts, emotions etc etc. Other days, nothing seems to go right. Most days are a mix of the two extremes.

Similarly, with establishment of distance between Self (awareness) and mind, we will notice that just like everything else in the universe,  in the mind too -- some days  are 'good' while others are 'bad' (as observed). 

This is perhaps not what your OP was about, but I sense that this might be a useful reminder -- "Whatever you are able to observe, is not you". Just like the mind has good and bad days (or moments), the body, energy, etc etc all have good and bad days. 

Another observation you can make is with the correlation of the mind and energy. If you are feeling mentally overactive, your energy is agitated (and vice versa). If you are feeling energetically weakened, there is an effect on the mind.  Again, whatever you can observe is not you. You are not the body, you are not the mind and not even the energies that animate the body.  Fall backward still...deeper and deeper into your own being. From the perspective of your own being, body, mind, energy, emotions, etc all rise and fall -- forms and names appear and disappear constantly -- playing a game of hide and seek.  Just remain as pure being...the mind will resist. Watch even that resistance, and it will settle down. Little by little, everything will settle...just be...do nothing.  

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I was shocked at the incredible stupidity of the idea of ripping or damaging your tan tien, and wondered where such idioticity comes from.  Any ideas?

 

It comes from not having a bonafide teacher imho. 
 

I won’t call it stupidity, just lack of knowledge.
 

Most people are so scared about “energy” that they imprison themselves in dubious conceptual prisons about what they read or (misread) in someone else’s book. 
 

If there was no life force/energy/Qi/Prana already in play, we’d be dead  

So instead of being afraid of energy and energy work, we should rather approach it with a healthy dose of pragmatism and positivity, imho.

avoidance is not the key, having a good strategy on how we can work with these energies is...

You can't damage or "rip" your Lower Dan tien. It is not a physical thing to be damaged that way. If you are in pain, go see a doctor.

If you're only scared that you ripped your LDT, don't be -- it cannot happen.

That said, we CAN deplete our energy when we are careless with how/where we're spending it (too much thinking, too much sex, too much of any activity for that matter -- moderation is paramount).

Heck, most don't even know how to fill the LDT. Even when they sink their Qi it just sticks around in the lower belly and then dissipates. The LDT is an energetic structure the size of a golf ball with a tiny hole in it (smaller than a needle's width). When you fill your LDT, you have to slowly guide the Qi down into that hole. Like pouring oil into a very narrow bottle. The energy goes back into the emptiness within the LDT -- The LDT is a wormhole between emptiness and the world. 

I know some folks don’t like to mix systems, but to put the light/Shen/Qi/jing continuum in a body-based approach, Light is nondual and is the power of pure awareness which is the ground of being,  and Shen corresponds with the causal body,  Qi with the astral or energy body abs jing with the physical body. 

Most people believe the relationship is inverted - physical contains energy contains causal , if they believe it at all. 
 

The fact is quite the opposite. The physical body and physical universe is a fraction of ‘reality’.  

In the mahanirvana tantra, Lord Shiva tells “I can pack your entire material universe into a single mustard seed”.  I know obsessing about the body and it’s vagaries are natural because most of us identify with the physical body more than anything else. But when we realize our true nature is awareness, then these things simply fade away from focus. 

11 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

Each day, shortly after waking up, pressure begins to build in my forehead just above my eyes, and progressively gets worse until the end of the day or until I do something physical like walking, which only helps for the period it lasts, as energy in the face drastically increases once I stop. If I stand still and relax tension in the spine, my feet relax into the inner sole, legs bend inwards, my head is forced upwards, mouth open, and constant 'jerks' of the head to the left. Often there is a need to lift up my arms above my head which allows a little more movement, but I either end up back where I started or with arms above the head, nothing happening.. like so /o\ - always accompanied by incessant jerks of the head to the left side. Always the same. I'm often feeling an urge to keep my mouth open which implies some blockage somewhere too I believe, because the natural state when balanced should be mouth closed, tongue to the roof of mouth right?

 

This has been a recurring issue for the past year that I might have been able to identify. It appears my shoulder, neck and back muscles are physically misaligned and I simply can't seem to untangle them. No matter how many times I let the body follow the muscular movements, eventually I get stuck in awkward positions where nothing happens, and so I let go of whatever position I have ended up in and start over. By following muscular movements I mean I relax my upper spine to the point where the muscles move of their own accord, hands, shoulders, arms, head.. but it never seems to do anything substantial.. both because my awareness is not penetrating enough to truly allow movement to happen, so it is often mildly assisted, and because too much movement throws off my concentration and it becomes a long and arduous process of moving ever so slightly, stopping and regaining awareness of the whole body, letting go of personal will, then a little more movement and so on.. very difficult, doesn't really get anywhere.

Seems like you're building up qi in the head. Too much thinking, mental stimulation will do that (even thinking about meditation or worrying about symptoms). Since it happens in the morning as you wake up, it seems there is an energetic transmission happening that you are unable to process/are resisting. Do you have any interesting/strange dreams on days when you have this head pressure?

11 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

I constantly feel so much slower than I know I am, difficulty grasping concepts, poor vocabulary recall... but I can think and learn.. it just takes so much longer than it used to. I believe I have 'qi in the head'? I have tried zhan zhuang, but this inevitably leads to either involuntary muscular movement as mentioned above, or I get very light headed and feel physically weak after ten minutes, with increased pressure in the head and feeling worse overall..

Stand, relax and let the qi sink to the belly. 

If you are unable to do this, lie down on your back on a carpet or mat, and release your body slowly to the ground.  You can start with your toes and work your way up to your head. Wherever you put your mind, feel it melting like butter on a hot pan. Melt and evaporate....

Scan from toes to head multiple times, taking your time. Little by little, relax your entire body. You'll feel that your entire body has melted and disappeared. Just stay that way for as long as you can. Do this right before you go to sleep and right after you wake up. 

After you've managed to do this in supine position, you can start doing standing and releasing. Mechanics are a bit different. But whatever you do, don't believe and buy into the BS that zhan zhuang needs to happen with a deep horse stance etc.

• Just feet shoulder width apart, toes parallel to each other, pointing straight ahead.
• More weight on your heels than the ball of your feet. 
• Bend your knees slightly.
• Tuck your chin in slightly, let your gaze go off into a point in the distance...about 30 degrees below the horizontal.
• Relax your lower back so you feel your tailbone dropping down towards the ground slightly.
• Release the muscles in your chest...imagine the muscles below your collarbone are slowly sliding down towards your belly-button (like hanging down)
• Lean your upper torso forward slightly from the hips. If you feel you're straight, you are not. You should feel like your falling foward very slightly. 
• Breath from your stomach...slowly inhale and exhale. If you stand like this for 3-5 minutes, you'll feel a sinking fluid like sensation towards your belly. Let it slowly pour downward. 
• Rest your mind lightly on the belly region just like you would rest your palm on a table top. 

Jing is a condensed form of energy. What is energy? It is the creative power of consciousness or awareness.

As movement seems to appear in awareness, it forms what is called spiritual power or light. This light slows down to form what is called Qi. This Qi then further slows down to form jing, which in turn slows down to form matter. They are all the same thing, but at different rates of vibration.  
 

And the corollary thereof is,  that spiritual Light, as the first activity of awareness is limitless in its range and scope. So it encompasses entire universes.

Qi by virtue of being slowed down light, has limits in range and scope. 

Jing being further slowed down light, is further limited in range and scope, as it slows down further, it forms matter, which is orders of magnitude more limited in range and scope. That is why matter seems to be definitive in form, which energies are less so. 
 

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I don't live in the US at the moment, so I wouldn't be able to commit to this even though I'd do it in a heartbeat for ya, pal. But yeah, when I secure a copy for myself, I'll review it for you and you can use it. 

I'm honored. If you have kindle unlimited its "free". I think you're in the Philippines. PM me your address anyway and I'll see if I can get you a copy  

53 minutes ago, steve said:

Congratulations Dwai!

I will definitely buy a copy of your book.

I'm honored. I hope you enjoy the book

On 12/6/2019 at 6:22 PM, steve said:

 

To get a sense of the answer to these questions there is only one thing you can do.

Personal practice, hands on, fully engaged until you get a sense of what is being indicated by these labels and concepts.

I wonder how many have a sense of what is being indicated, what is being asked of us?

 

The practice is not to think, not to compare, not to understand, just to be exactly as you are without adding, subtracting, or following anything. What is necessary is to have the view.

That is the Dzogchen method and it is also where my Daoist training took me only in a more roundabout, exhaustive sort of way.

 

Direct introduction, present in both Dzogchen and Daoist paths, is to guide the student to have this direct, personal experience, and helping them to be sure of it.

The next step is familiarity and stability.

Once there, it is clear what these labels and concepts represent.

But "understanding" the labels and concepts doesn't really help much, unless undertaken in a very rigorous, exhaustive, and comprehensive manner.

 

My Daoist training was only ever practical, never theoretical.

My Bön training has been the same.

Deepest gratitude to my teachers for that!

 

To start looking for answers to questions about the concepts and labels and what they mean just tends to steer me away from what they are pointing to, so I've mostly given up on that.

 

I feel like I'm sounding a bit arrogant or dismissive and I don't mean to be.

But that's all I've got for now...

 

Sending love to all in this holiday season!

Advaita Vedānta does that too.  

I've had a similar experience...taijiquan and daoist meditation took me there directly, but there was no theory associated with it, in the way I was taught. Only after I started working with Advaita Vedānta did I have the vocabulary for expression. 

Then when I delved into Kashmir Shaivism, I found the same truth shining there. As with Tibetan buddhism, Zen and so on.

10 hours ago, tao stillness said:

That must be quite a labor of love to actually complete a book. No small task, I am told.

Took me only 9 odd years  

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I just wondered from the title if you have been initiated by an enlightened yogic master from a lineage of siddhas?

I have been initiated by an enlightened master from the Daoist tradition, though he also has a yogic lineage. My Master has been re-incarnating across several lifetimes along with a group of 12 disciples.

Quote

Because from my direct experience, it would be almost impossible to write about the siddhis without actually having 

had that unique totally spiritual experience when Patanjali's yoga sutras actually do work. As I wrote elsewhere in the past somewhere on Daobums that there has been a vital correct teaching missing in all editions of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras books, such as the most well known, "How to Know God." Fortunately, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the 1970's created the Transcendental Meditation Siddhis program that included the missing piece of correct instructions. The difference between experiencing direct and immediate temporary states of enlightenment vs. spinning your wheels wondering what you are supposed to experiencing or how long will it take to feel something. The method when taught correctly works the first time you practice it and when in that state of higher consciousness you absolutely know that this is the first time you have ever been in your normal state of mind/Being. You know this not from intellectual knowing, but just from Being it. Nothing compares to this. So that is quite a title,  Maha Siddha. Greatest Power.

That being said, the book is a work of fiction, except for the parts that aren't  

10 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Offer signed copies for some of us, please!

I'll be happy to do so within the US (mainly due to shipping costs). I'll even give up to 15 paperback copies for free (first come first serve) if I get a commitment for a review from each recipient within a month of receiving the book. PM me with your real name and address if you want a copy.  

Also if you go to my author website https://dwailahiri.com and sign up to my mailing list, I am going to offer early reader previews to my work and giveaways going forward -- there are going to be more books in the series - https://dwailahiri.com/join-my-mailing-list/

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

" It has often been said that humanity's history is a fabrication, littered with lies and omissions, but this has never been conclusively proven, until now. What has been recently found in Australia is unequivocal in rewriting convenient versions of ancient history and the genesis of modern humans.

 

We can now verify that Original Elders and custodians of the old way are correct in insisting that Australia is the cradle of humanity, and "that all peoples of the world come from us."

 

But it doesn't end there.

 

Religion, art, burial, sailing, astronomy, navigation, democracy, gender equality and all the nobler hallmarks of civilised behaviour, are original blessings exported from Australia. "

 

Read more here ;

 

https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/204222236?q&versionId=224199162

 

Everyone gets a trophy  

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

That's great that you published your book. Dwai!  I hope it does well.  It looks like it will be a fun read.  I think I'll get a copy of that.  It'll be my first book purchase in well over ten years.

I’m honored and I hope you’ll enjoy it.   

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Funny that everyone accepts the Toba eruption but denies the Younger Dryas impact because it's not a gradualist explanation.

http://indiafacts.org/indian-history-perspective-1/

Quote

300,000 B.P.

Primitive man lived in central India near Narmada river basin in what is today known as Madhya Pradesh. He is referred to as Narmada Man and teams from United States and France, have identified the original Narmada skull as actually that of a human woman (“Homo Sapiens”) and not as male Homo Erectus as thought previously.

In 1982 a fossil hominid calvaria was found in a middle Pleistocene deposit in the central Narmada valley of Madhya Pradesh, India, and was assigned to the new taxon Homo erectus narmadensis. Subsequently, morphometric studies of the specimen were conducted by two separate research teams from France and the United States, both in collaboration with Indian colleagues. Results of the most recent study, which includes morphometric and comparative investigations, lead to the conclusion that “Narmada Man” is appropriately identified as Homo sapiens. (Kennedy, Sonakia, Chiment, & Verma, 1991)

An interesting find was that below the hominid fossil were found stone tools, bones of horses, boars, hippopotamus and an extinct elephant Stegodon dated anywhere between 800,000 years to 10,000 years ago. (Lal, 2016, p. 365)

It must be noted that horses became a political animal during the era of British Indology and continues to generate even today heated polemics among AIT proponents and opponents. Its absence in pre-Vedic India (before 1500 BCE), is supposed to indicate that horse-riding Central Asian Aryan’s invaded India. Yet we do have well-documented but unpublicized ancient horse remains at least 6,000 years older than the supposed AIT (considering the most unlikely conservative scenario)! In fact a much earlier date for domesticated horses in central India is known, as we will see a bit later.

150,000 B.P.

Archaic humans were living as far south as what is Chennai today. A 160,000 years old skull of a 5 year old baby (Laterite Baby) was found, which was identified as (archaic) Homo Sapiens. Humans migrated from India to Zambia in south central Africa 160,000 years ago. The skull of the so-called Rhodesia Man has Taurus Angularis (part of skull bone) which is absent in all other older African skulls but is present in Narmada Man, and in all modern humans.

Narmada Man, Laterite Baby and Rhodesia Man pose serious challenge to the Out of Africa theory. If we consider the combined evidence of the above, which is hard scientific evidence, it would mean that indigenous archaic modern humans existed in India at least by 300,000 BP and were staying as far south as Chennai. Additionally as early as 160,000, an Indian had somehow migrated to central Africa and died there. Yet as per the prevailing Out of Africa Theory, modern humans originated only 80,000 years ago and migrated from Africa to India.

This could mean two things:

1. Ancient humans had originated in India and had lived in India for a long time. Then somehow they all died out by 150,000 years ago. Then again they somehow evolved out of Africa, and then 50 Africans came to India, and then these Indians colonize the whole world. Or,
2. Humans did indeed originate in India, and evolved to modern humans, and that there were back and forth migrations between Africa and Asia. The Out of Africa could then be a small but important part of the human journey, a sub-set of a potentially new theory and may have to be modified based on new evidence.

These are, after all, some serious questions which have significant implications as to how we view history of humans. Yet in the usual opaque way in which a politically motivated western academia works, they have simply ignored and buried any evidence which challenges the Out of Africa theory.

I leave it to you to decide which of the above conclusions seem more logical. I personally find the second alternative more convincing. In this regard, P Priyadarshi has given a compelling alternative for earlier periods which I present below. For latter periods, say after 75,000 BP, we have relied on the mainstream narrative as documented by National Geographic genographic project and Stephen Oppenheimer’s works.

Mitochondrial DNA Eve was most likely an Indian and lineages L0, L1, L2, L3, M and N all probably originated in India. In other words, anatomically modern humans originated in India and not in Africa. Then there was a migration of L0 and L1 lineages to Africa 130,000 years BP where they hybridized with a now extinct ancestor and became a different people. (Priyadarshi, 2012)

90,000 B.P.

Again around 85,000 BP, another set of Indians L0 (L0a, L0k, L0d), L1, L2 and L3 (prior to split of M & N) migrated to Africa. Other Indians migrated towards South East Asia following the coast around Borneo till they reached South China.

75,000 B.P.

In 74,000 BP, Mount Toba eruption occurred which covered Indian sub-continent in ash up to 5m deep. Global temperatures cooled down drastically and a “volcanic winter” was caused. Many modern humans in Indian subcontinent died of the severe cold and from resulting droughts and deforestation. L0, L1, L2 and L3, died out in India, while they continued to exist in Africa. It is believed that only 1,000 people survived in India.

According to the Toba catastrophe theory, a massive volcanic eruption changed the course of human history by severely reducing the human population. This may have occurred when around 70–75,000 years ago the Toba caldera in Indonesia underwent a category 8 or “mega-colossal” eruption on the Volcanic Explosivity Index. This may have reduced the average global temperature by 3 to 3.5 degrees Celsius for several years and may possibly have triggered an ice age. This massive environmental change is believed to have created population bottlenecks in the various species that existed at the time; this in turn accelerated differentiation of the isolated human populations, eventually leading to the extinction of all the other human species except for the branch that became modern humans(2).

After this repopulation of Indian sub-continent took place. Many of the Indians who were now settled in Timor and Borneo migrated to Australia and New Guinea respectively. Some people headed back from south-east Asia to eastern and north-eastern India.

50,000 B.P.

Around 52,000 years ago there was a significant warming of world climate, and Indians migrated through Punjab, Sindh and Multan north-westwards towards West Asian Levant region and head towards Europe via Bosporus. Indian population started diverging into two groups, the Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians and present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from these two distinct ancestral populations.

At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India(3).

Modern Indians are thus descendants of two ancient founding populations, the older Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and the latter Ancestral South Indians (ASI). This genetic branching has however now become a major political issue and manifests itself as:

1. North South divide
2. Aryan-Dravidian divide

However, we must understand that the ANI-ASI divide is merely a genetic branching of two ancient population lineages. It is not a static and eternal divide that modern Tamil and Dravidian politicians would have us believe. From ancient times till modern day, there has been a constant churn of people all over India. People from North have gone to the south, and people from South have gone to the east and so on. There were of course periods of extreme climatic conditions when there was no interaction between different groups, and again once conditions became amenable, there was movements again. An Indian today is thus a mixture of ANI and ASI “types”. North Indians have more ANI and south Indians have more ASI. It has nothing to do with looks, skin color, caste or racism. Noted historian and economist Sanjeev Sanyal says:

The Indian reader may be tempted here to think of the Ancestral South Indians (ASI) as Dravidians and the Ancestral North Indians (ANI) as Aryans. While I have nothing against the words themselves, one should be cautious about using the terms as they are often used in the context of bogus nineteenth century racial theories. The ANI and ASI are just genetic cocktails and not ‘pure’ races. Moreover we are dealing here with Stone Age bands and not horse-drawn chariots, cities and iron weapons that were said to be part of the Aryan-Dravidian rivalry. (Sanyal, 2016, p. 29)

In the meantime, Neanderthals, a violent people who lived in Europe (and who rarely lived beyond 35 years of age), began to become extinct around 40,000 years ago, after anatomically modern humans had reached the continent but not before hybridizing with them and contributing to the European gene-pools.

The inescapable conclusion is that all Europeans today are essentially Pakistani Punjabi in origin with some Neanderthal genes. Let this sink in for a moment.

40,000 B.P.

By now humans of Punjabi origin had moved into Hungary and Austria. (45,000 BP) and into rest of Europe. People from Assam and north-eastern India and Indo-China region move towards Tibet and then towards China. The implication is that the oldest Tibetans and Chinese are Assamese. Another wave of erstwhile Indians now migrated from South China towards mainland China. Another wave of West Asians and Punjabis and Sindhis, headed towards Central Asia and eventually moved towards Siberia.

30,000 B.P.

Bhimbetka Caves in Madhya Pradesh located in northern fringes of the ancient Vindhyachal ranges are home to the extraordinary rock shelters and paintings.

Executed mainly in red and white, with the occasional use of green and yellow with themes taken from the everyday events of eons ago, the scenes usually depict hunting, dancing, horse and elephant riders, animal fights, honey collection, decoration of bodies, disguises, masks and different type of animals etc. It depicts the detail of social life during the long period of time, when man used to frequent these rock shelters. Animals such as bison, tiger, rhinoceros, wild boar, elephants, monkeys, antelopes, lizards, peacocks etc. have been abundantly depicted in the rock shelters. Popular religious and ritual symbols also occur frequently(4).

Thus domesticated horse was known as early as 35,000 BP because there is a seated figure on a horse. Again this flies against the face of the so-called Aryan Invasion Theory according to which Aryan’s from Central Asia introduced horses (along with Sanskrit, racism and caste system) to Indian-subcontinent.

In parallel, people from Indian mainland reach Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and go on to be become the Jaroa and Onge tribes. Around 25,000 years ago there was a land bridge between Asia and North America. Different groups of population merged at the Bering Strait and became future Americans. Thus Native Americans or Red Indians as they were called earlier are indeed Indians.

20,000 B.P.

Prior to this there was a common Mesolithic language in India with regional variations. However during the last Glacial Maximum (23,000 to 19,000 BP), due to extreme climatic conditions Indian sub-continent got divided into three zones shown below. Extreme isolation of Indian people into three groups led to linguistic differentiation and formation of three language families, the Indo-European, Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic. (Priyadarshi, 2012)

Interestingly, around 100 years ago, the great Rishi Sri Aurobindo, who himself was a polyglot and master linguist had realized, based on his extensive study of the languages and aided by his yogic intuition, that Sanskrit and Tamil in fact derived from an earlier mother tongue which is now lost, but which survives as a spiritual substrate in both these language families.

For on examining the vocabulary of the Tamil language, in appearance so foreign to the Sanskrit form and character, I yet found myself continuously guided by words, or families of words supposed to be pure Tamil, in establishing new relations between Sanskrit and its distant sister, Latin, and occasionally between the Greek and the Sanskrit. Sometimes the Tamil vocable not only suggested the connection but proved the missing link in a family of connected words. And it was through this Dravidian language that I came first to perceive what seems to me now the true law, origins and, as it were, the embryology of the Aryan tongues…The possibility suggests itself that they may even have been two diversions, or families derived from one lost primitive tongue (5).

The immediate implication is that the so-called Aryan-Dravidian divide is without any merit or substance. Incidentally, Indian astronomers started observing the sky minutely, and recording the position of stars as early as 24,000 BP. Raj Vedam of Indian Historical Awareness and Research (IHAR) quotes from Chapter 230, Verses 8-11 of Mahabharata, Vana Parva where it is mentioned that Kritikka nakshatra was at summer solstice, which happened 23.8-22.8k years ago.

This means that Indian sages have been observing the skies from 24,000 years ago. This is a staggering amount of time, that completely belies everything that we have been taught! Our popular romantic sentiment is that 24,000 years ago there were cave men who had clubs and were beating each other on the head… running around and grunting “ugghh  … uggh… uggh”, those kind of things. But here you have a complex bunch of observations happening 24,000 years ago. So there is something wrong with the narrative that has been forced-fed (to us).” (Vedam, 2016)

Conclusion

Over the ages we have lost and rediscovered our knowledge systems many times. Yet every time we have managed to regain our knowledge but never in the same way as before. Like a Banyan tree we have spread and survived. Our roots are all around.  Our history is not a book to be dusted and kept in a shelf. Our history and traditions live through each one of us. Every moment of our lives is a reflection of our ancient history.

Children should be taught this history. The history of human beings, the history of plant and animals in Indian subcontinent, the history of mathematics, the history of science and technology and the history of politics, all these should be taught to them. For impressionable young minds, a positive and uplifting, broad sweeping canvas is necessary so as to produce confident future Indians who can create an inspiring future for mankind at large.

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

we can get to areas of the mind per time and place but never to the Self in the same sense being it is not of mind.

But we also don't have to do anything to get to the Self. We are already that

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

yeah I know he says that but I didn't find it very convincing ... but hey what do I know?

It’s easy enough to prove/disprove him if one chooses to do so. Computer science has become pervasive enough to allow that. 
 

I think the best part of his presentations is his exhortation to use evidence based science to study the subject. 
 

Here’s another guy I like a lot on AIT/AMT — 

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I am no expert in these fields but I think one thing missed or brushed over in that video is that for linguistics the family tree of languages has a definite time direction i.e. phonemes (?) morph in a way that indicates which language developed from which - thus you can't start at any point as the origin - that's why PIE is postulated - it is an unknown language which pre-dates the others.  Similarly for genetics to point to small differences as not being significant is I would guess a mistake - because the study of the genomes can say which developed out of which.

 

He also brushed over the early out of Africa populations in the Middle East as if they didn't exist.

 

Where I agree with him though is that much of this is a search for European identity - because of course so many of the scientist are European (or American) - and that may well skew the interpretation.

 

 

In the longer video he actually states why the linguistic mode with ‘PIE’ at the root is not mathematically sound. He says one can take any one language as the root and demonstrate a tree structure, and mathematically it would be correct. 
 

He also states why the Out if Africa populations are not relevant to this issue (AIT/AMT) - chronologically they are far more in antiquity. He also gives evidence of human settlements in central and southern India dating back 300K years. 
 

Eventually (imho) the academics will have to revise and revisit their chronology of human history/evolution to a much older date than what is considered acceptable today. 

59 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

By  invading in through the NW corner ?

 

Only to plunder the natural beauty and sunshine  

14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Get over it ?   ... best thing that ever happened to 'me'    .

 

Talking to Aboriginal friends and they  ;  "  ... and this  white guy goes, 'I want to say sorry and apologise  to you .'

 

'What for ' ?

 

' One of my ancestors stole a loaf of bread and they sent him to Australia , and then we had to live on your land and we messed everything up .'

 

Then the Aboriginal gestures at the beautiful landscape, the clear flowing river  intertwined with river sand beaches and clear pools, with giant fish, the islands of bottle brush flowers with various honey eaters flitting about  ...

 

' And THIS  was their punishment ? To be imprisoned HERE ! .... Away from ENGLAND !    "

 

- and every body laughed .

 

 

Oh how the English homeland pulls on my heart strings !

 

 

 

I shall try to get over it though

 

 

 

 

 

My friend spent 20 days in Australia this summer. Couldn’t stop gushing on about it — so I’m thinking if opportunity arises, I’ll be visiting too.  

33 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The Rishi's may well be right but some explanation has to be provided for the following (apart from just dismissing it):

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/

Also I think you raised a question about why Indic scholars are still bringing up 18th and 19th century European works. That’s because modern western indology is built on that very foundation, which imho is seriously flawed. 

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Believe it or not, as a Brit I am open to these ideas.  A few years ago my aged mother went on a course on Indian history at Oxford Uni. and came back and said the lecturer (who was Indian) said that they owed the British for the idea of their history because before the western scholars there was no such thing as Indian history.  All part of the India as a timeless mystical realm which the Raj liked to spin.  I did try to explain to her that many Indian scholars would object to that view - but she just said 'but he was Indian, and a very nice man' - so I couldn't convince her on that point. But I get a bit put off when these speakers (in the vids you link to) go on about 18th and 19th century ideas which no one takes seriously any more.  Really its time to move on from what they thought in 1780 or whatever.

 

I live in Portugal and so there's even more connection with Goa (in fact the present prime-minister is Goan originally - he gets some racism even in this laid back place) and Vasco da Gama and so on.

 

I think the problem is for me, even being willing to rethink all my assumptions about India etc. it seems to me they are trying to replace scientific enquiry i.e. verified evidence based theory, with the authority of the Rishis and the ancient texts.  That's not to say they are wrong - its just they need to complete the circle by for instance using the archeological record and so on in a convincing and non-disputable way. 

 

I was a bit put off by one vid which described Romila Thopal as a Marxist - I'm pretty sure she's not - so I guess there's a high degree of tension between the academics of various strains in India.

Romila had the support of the Marxist powers that existed until a few decades back. 
 

The question is not whether ancient Rishis were right or wrong. if you see they were right about a lot of things. 
 

They (Indic scholars) are looking at their body of work after discarding the Eurocentric lens of max mueller, wheeler, et al. 
 

It is a classic etic vs emic problem. The traditional way in which the texts were transmitted has been proven to be highly reliable, as the ancients added error correction and error checking in the method of learning itself. So the original compositions have traveled through time almost unaltered.

The second part is that of considering the Texts as “religious”. There is no separation of religion and other aspects of life in Indian tradition like there is in the west. So the same body of work contains rituals, philosophy, science etc. if you watch the second video I posted he explains the breadth of the work.

8 hours ago, dawei said:

Now this is TMI for me.  Whether 12 steps or 3 steps... it gets into prescribed formulas that I don't relate to.  Maybe the point is that some naturally go through these 3 steps without every 'trying' or 'thinking' there are steps.  THey just 'realize'.  

Yeah that is possible. In fact, it is very likely to happen when we practice meditation and enter deep cessation/absorption.

The three steps are not strict and depends on how strongly one is enamored by the phenomenal world.

Since we all are already nondual awareness, the way back from duality is also really just a shift in mental framework and cognition. 
 

How far do and how long we have to travel to get to the Self?  

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Here is another friend I converse with ; a very old Brahman gentleman , the one I mentioned before;

 

Aupmanyav - he is very proud of his grandson

Here is him chastising another venerable countryman about OOI regarding archaeology, history, linguistics, etc  ;

 

"  I am not interested in the religious interpretations of RigVeda. (on the matter of the others interpretation that led him to think OOI) Various sages, in their ecstasy of devotion, have said various things about Aryan Gods and Goddesses. That is a separate matter. This is a history forum. I am interested only what history we can get out of RigVeda. "

 

But now, later, he gives his venerable   interpretation,  from his 'religiously scholarly ' approach when asked about a river so big it had ships in it  ;

 " the shi Aratyns saw in the Milky Way galaxy .... See the thousand-oared ship in the lower left corner.... "

 

 

 

 

- just an example of different emic approaches from  different traditions .

 

On this level the debate gets very murky ( ie between learned  Hindus WITH an emic approach - but one that varies  ) ... before long its insuts or praise and then caste and jati come into it .... ancient tribal rivalries  surface , the debate  has gone out the window  and then  another thread about AMT , Aryans, or OOI is closed and locked and some people are  banned .

 

Thank goodness that  isnt happening here  ........  as a we are all ' high born '  .

 

 

 

With all due respect to your friend - I too come from a family of Brahmins, with a pretty solid traditional background up to my Grandfather's generation. After that,  there has been such brainwashing perpetrated on the indian people that many individuals of the generations that grew up between 1940s - 1970s were indoctrinated in a very insidious and systematic way on the following two aspects --

1. The AIT and later AMT when AIT was blown to smithereens by evidence from various sources
2. The Aryan-Dravidian divide  which was a ploy of the British to divide-and-rule -- and the Nehru-(fake)Gandhi family that ended up ruling India, in cahoots with the Marxists who were implanted to control the education system in India continued to perpetrate this.

The social impact of such utter falsehoods can only be understood if one only see the effects it had on the ground. 

Did you watch the video I shared in the OP? That covers a lot of what you've posted about and effectively disproves them. 

Here's another one. My advice (take it or leave it, its your choice), you are pretty smart. Don't try to win...try to understand instead.