dwai

That's what you are supposed to do. What do you think Wu Wei is? Nice to see someone understands....

there is no value in ascribing rational understandings to the non-rational (mind you, non-rational is not the same as irrational). Imho, there is no way to know why until the Self is revealed. This might seem like a cop-out, but it is not. It is simply an acknowledgment of the fact that we can only go so far with rational inquiry, when it comes to the Self. Fantastic! I'm going to share it with my non-TTB friends as well...Thank you!

beautiful! thanks for sharing...

Sure...what conditionality limits the Self? It always exists

The one thing most don't understand is that Emptiness is indeed the lack of self-existence, self-nature. But it is only valid in the relative/materialistic sense. The Non-self doesn't imply that there is no self. It implies that, that which we consider the self is actually not the self. It is empty of self-nature and self-existence. That which remains after removing the "non-self" is the Self, that which doesn't depend on anything else for it's existence, that which is self-existent and has self-nature. Emptiness signifies that all material existence is empty of self-nature and cannot stand on it's own, without the other pieces. The only thing that has self-nature and self-existence is Consciousness. Wu Wei arises when one realizes that no effort needs to be made to do, because there is no such thing as doing in the true sense...that which will happen will happen.

It's best not to talk about these in public. I learned the hard way...they will disappear if you stop fixating on them The conflict arises when one tries to reject/deny the existence of specific thoughts/patterns. The more you try to vanquish them, the stronger they get. The hardest thing I found was to have an accepting attitude towards them...in the sense...those bad thoughts/patterns are also rising in my mindstream. They don't define me unless I let them define me. The less I fixated on them, the less power they gained (in themselves and over me). Now I can acknowledge that they arise and then they disappear, whereas earlier they would overshadow and overpower the witness

Ideally apana should not rise...because apana is a downward energy, it's role is to do cleaning and releasing. Apana is responsible for all forms of excretory functions and it powers the same. Perhaps that is why it recommends to eliminate early in the morning, because otherwise Apana will try to find it's way out. If it cannot flow downward/outward it will flow upward. I was reading that many health problems in the modern world are because of accumulation in the digestive tract, which prevent good elimination. When that happens, the stuff tries to find it's way out (through the skin or reversing the direction). That is Apana trying to find it's way out... Perhaps that is why in Ayurveda, it is recommended to eat specific types of food, based on the constitution (Dosha), which help balance the 5 energies and regulate their natural flow.

The problem with references to "Yoga" is that those who refer to it don't really have a sound understanding of what it implies. Yog means "to Join", from the skt root word of "yuj". The Yoga that should be referred to is Ashtanga Yoga (which also includes the Ashtanga Vinyasa or Mysore-style of Yoga practiced by students of Late Sri Pattabhi Jois), as presented in texts such as Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. I find the various schools of Yoga in the West highly frivolous and shallow with extreme focus on the physical/body/butt-firming aspects of the Hatha Yoga practice (which is physical component of Ashtanga), without presenting the philosophical/spiritual component that goes (precedes and follows the Hatha Practice) with it. If someone goes to the gym and only does right hand bicep curls, the only thing they'll develop is the right hand's bicep. Same thing with doing only the Asana (hatha) portion of Yoga. Yoga is a lifestyle and it can be incorporated into any practice regimen, including (with many overlaps), Taoist practices. The system of taiji chuan I learn suggests that Taiji Chuan is a ladder where the sequence of development bottom-up is: martial ability healing spiritual transformation/reconnect with Tao. As our training progresses, we spend more and more time doing meditation and our focus is predominantly on single-form practice (but we also spend considerable amount of time on push hands and weapons). Each of these is a cultivation technique by itself and work on developing one (or several) of the 8 energies of the 13-basic, in conjunction with the 5 directions. Also, our style of Taiji Chuan is not considered secular but very much Taoist. My grandmaster learned from a Taoist monk, in the traditional mode of transmission... So evidently, Taiji Chuan (the system I learnt) has same ultimate goal as Yoga (except the martial part, though Hatha Yoga practice can help with physical development that is needed for martial arts -- see Kalaripayyat for instance). Chakras and Dan Tiens are not entirely different animals. Chakras and Dan Tiens are the same. The 3 chakras emphasized in Taoist practices are the Swadhisthana, Anahata and Ajna/Sahasrara (lower, middle and upper dan tiens/crownpoint). The structure of the lowest chakra (muladhara) is actually considered to be part of Swadhisthana, where the mula is considered a kanda (bulb) of the swadhisthana (kind of like an old thermometer with the tip inverted). The mulabandha (or mula lock) is the same as tucking in the tail bone during cultivation. There are two other locks used in Yoga (the Uddiyana Bandha and the Jalandhara Bandha) and they are used to regulate the flow of prana through the meridians. Anyone who has practiced Hatha yoga with breathing synchronization will have learned that a sudden rush of prana can rush into the head if the chin (Jalandhara) lock is not applied. That is simply the nature of the technique. There are yogic techniques of circulation too...unfortunately not too many westerners know about it that's all). The Manipura is also part of the Anahata (you should read BK Frantzis' description of it from the Taoist perspective, where he refers to the middle dan tien actually comprising of both the heart center as well as the plexus area). There are not just 7 chakras in the traditional yogic system, there are many. The seven are what the Yogis considered the most important, that's all. Also, the purpose of Yoga is not to raise the Kundalini. Kundalini rises as a part of the process automatically (you don't have to do "KUndalini yoga" to do this). The purpose of yoga is to stop the modifications of the mind (or still the mind), such that mediation and eventually samadhi is possible. Taoist meditation too does this -- using Taiji Chuan or other cultivation techniques to still the mind, till real meditation is possible...

I disagree...and that's okay. Just like mine is an opinion, so is yours. Unless of course you are representative of every taoist that ever lived or is out there... Taoist practices end goal is to merge with Tao. The spiritual transformation phase. Which is what Nirvikalpa Samadhi is... Enjoy your perspective and I'll enjoy mine.

All Nagarjuna is showing is that "it" cannot be approached using words or logic. He is also showing that Categorical frameworks are as empty as the phenomena they work on/with. Only direct experiential knowledge or Prajna is the solution...no amount of intellectualization will solve the riddle.

Actually it is the same by my experience. They take different approaches towards the same goal. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it's not right. If you *really* understand what Samadhi means, you will also know that Tai Chi or more precisely Nei Gung will lead to that state. That Taiji Chuan is also a martial art is actually the side-effect. Again, this is my opinion and I'm not looking for people to agree with me or not...so it doesn't really matter to me what you think.

The answer is it depends! I do both Taoist Tai Chi and Yoga and they have the same objectives and work towards same goal. The Union of Body, Energy and Spirit. Yoga need not be a pain at all, at least not if you're doing it right. Yoga isn't about being a pretzel. Yoga is about using the body and breath to still the mind (The goal of Yoga is to stop the modifications of the Mind -- Yogas Chitta Vritti Nirodhah -- Patanjali Yoga Sutras). The Asanas or postures/forms are only a part of Yoga. Yoga is called Ashtanga (or Eight-limbed) because of the following: Yama (abstinence) Niyama (Rules/disciple) Asana (Forms/Postures) Pranayama (Chi development by Breathing) Pratyahara (Sense withdrawal -- go from outward seeking to inward seeking consciousness) Dharana (focus) Dhyana (meditation) Samadhi (state of meditative absorption or union of body, consciousness and spirit) Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state. Either using one or multiple combinations of techniques. What works for you is also going to change with time. At times Tai Chi is best, at times Asana practice is best. But both are complementary and will help in releasing blockages and opening up the channels for better and stronger Chi-flow.

Found some interesting "fa jing" videos from the Southern Indian style of Varma/Marma Adi: and

Apepch, I think the biggest chasm here is with the assumption that there are "ancient trappings" of any kind, whatsoever. Taoism is probably the most easy and uncomplicated spiritual tradition to follow and imho, it can be followed 100% without any dilution or modification. The "ism" however has changed. In fact it has evolved, but it's traditional places of practice. Otherwise like you pointed out, we will have a New-agey free-for-all!

The Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.1 This is relevant to your experience, recorded in one of the oldest Upanishads.

Stig, This then begs the question, "Why should traditional Daoism have to give anything up?". I know you probably don't intend it in that sense, but that line of questioning smacks of arrogance. There need not be any "mutual compromise". Remember, you are the one who has chosen Daoism. Daoism hasn't chosen you. So all the compromise has to be from your side alone... This overwhelming need to define a "Western" version of every Eastern tradition is not just mind-boggling, but also annoying if I may say so. I have to only present those perversions of Yoga in the West to prove my point...they are NOT authentic, they don't get it, or at least most of those I have seen, especially commercialized by Yoga Journal-type magazines don't. Systems like Yoga, Taoism etc are more than just philosophy or psychosomatic practices. They are also traditions passed on from generation to generation, since thousands of years. Accept these as your own, no one stops you. But why change them? What is the need to do so? Without tradition, these systems are like bodies without consciousness. Best, Dwai

Really? How will you secularize internal alchemy? Nei Gung? Taoism is a spiritual practice. And no matter how one tries to skin this cat, it will remain precisely that...a spiritual practice. The end result is realization of Tao. So you might decide to learn Nei Gung from the Chinese and then change it's name to "Noah's Practice" (for eg, say). Does that change the practice of Nei Gung? It might be severely dishonest and unethical to appropriate and then re-brand and re-market the Chinese art/science of Nei Gung, calling Nei Gung Noah's Practice is not going to change the practice in any way. If you do, it is not Nei Gung any more. Also, these quasi-mystical texts that talk about interconnectedness and whatnot, are not simply texts for the sake of texts. They are recordings of the experiential knowledge of those who have gone before us. So if you practice correctly, you will come upon the same experiences. How you interpret these will of course vary based on your categorical framework. To be a little more clear -- you as a Westerner will/might interpret the experiential knowledge gained using the rules you know. But that is not Taoism. Because Taoism is the experience, not the interpretation. Works such as Tao Te Ching are not interpretations, they are direct recordings of experiential knowledge. They are also guidelines of how to approach the Tao. No where in the Tao te Ching

You have no idea how familiar I am with that statement. In fact I I'd like to present a link (albeit contrasting Indian and Western thought here, since it becomes relevant in our context): East vs West -- the myths that mystify What the "intellectual traditions" represent are categorical frameworks, that provide rules with which the individual (or collection of individuals) create their world. The presentation in the link is telling in it's approach. That said, if you have to understand Taoism or Buddhism or Hinduism, you have to approach it using the rules that they use. You cannot use Western rules/categorical frameworks to approach these.

Practice of Taoism has nothing to do with such a dialog. For, in order to practice Taoism you have become a Taoist. By doing that, you are accepting the framework that Taoism has to offer as your own. As far as intellectual traditions go, the Eastern traditions are naturally more suitable for Taoist practices, because, well, the framework is native to the East. There are cultural nuances, concepts and ideas that are easily understood in such a light. A single word in an Eastern language might communicate a plethora of concepts, ideas and even evoke visual imagery that when translated into a Western Language cannot possibly be conveyed in it's original sense anymore (at least not until you add a few paragraphs to go into descriptive detail). It is easier and better, imo, for the seeker to immerse himself/herself in the tradition native to Taoism (or whichever "ism" you are following) rather than try and re-interpret the "ism" to suit his/her fancies. There are intellectual traditions in the West that when expanded can become well suited for Taoism, but if you modify Taoist practices to suit what these intellectual traditions posit, then what remains isn't Taoism anymore.

I would consider it a blatantly wrong thing. Why categorize "Western"? What is it's other? Eastern? Isn't Daoism originated in China? Is the label intended to suggest that somehow the practice and following of Daoism in the West somehow different from that in the East? I have similar issues with people suggesting that there is a Western Hinduism, A Western Buddhist and so on. If there is a Western component to it, it still is simply Daoism, Hinduism or Buddhism. If these get modified somehow to be different from how they are practiced in their mother cultures, then they have become abberations, not valid practices any longer.

I wonder how long he will remain in "good peer reviewed standing" if he maintains his locus standi. I'm not saying that it is wrong..in fact it is commendable...but the Science Fascists have a tendency to follow this trademarked process of tyranny, wrt anyone who challenges the ideas accepted as bona fide: 1) First ignore them 2) then laugh at them 3) Then get angry and fight them The forth step happens very very rarely (and history stands testimony to that)... 4) Accept defeat Unfortunately most independent thinkers who defy the edicts of the dominant culture (which is Science these days), tend to get ostracized, ridiculed and end up living a very lonely, dejected life... Sad but true! There are many Indian-American scientists who have tried to change the dominant/popular myths and ended up being labeled "Pseudo-scientists". I will present one such scholar who is widely respected in the Indian-American community of intellectuals and academics -- Dr Subhash Kak. If you read the discussions about him on his wikipedia page, the bias will become self-evident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Subhash_Kak Here we have a bunch of semi-educated foot-soldiers of mainstream academia who feel they have the wherewithal to talk smack about someone who is obviously several miles above them in both intellectual and academic accomplishments...

Was reading Glenn Morris' book series "Path Notes of An American Ninja Master" and he mentions Sanchin as being a kind of internal cultivation method. He also says iirc not too many people know how to do this. I have read B K Frantzis say something to that extent in one of his books (I believe in The Power of the IMA) Maybe you should try doing it softly, as slow as possible without evoking any aggressive thoughts if you can. Place your tongue on the upper palate of your mouth and do deep belly/diaphragmatic breathing through out the kata. I guess rule of thumb to follow is "breath in when moving into a section and breath out when ending it". Try and make the breath as smooth, soft and long as you can. Do the Kata for a few repetitions (perhaps on both sides if possible, ie if you are starting with the right side first, do the left side next). If you decide to give it a whirl, let us know what you experienced.

Don't want to jinx, but what if they moved...here...?!?

I'd say this: Taoism is just like any major religion in the world, except for the fear of retribution of a jealous or vengeful God, or the over-bearing breathing-down-the-neck of a God or an escapist get-out-of-jail pass of absolution in One man or Woman. In Taoism, the practitioner/follower is the master of his/her destiny and being a good Taoist has to do with following the natural way and order of things. If it seems unnatural or artificial it is not for a Taoist.