liminal_luke

I´ll share some initial thoughts. Energy in any form should not be intentionally shared without informed consent. It´s just standard ethics, the same as for anything else. You tell people what you´re proposing to do before you do it, what the likely consequences will be, everybody gets to say yes or no. If the energy cannot be shared without misting casual bystanders with sexual vibes then don´t do it. This goes for any kind of conscious energetic interaction: healing, astral sex, hypnotic trance, shaktipat... whatever. Energetic exchange should not take place between Bums unless both members are over the age of 18. If the proposed energetic exchange might infringe on "quiet enjoyment" rights of other Bums, by making it impossible to have a normal non-sexually charged chat in the chatroom for example, then it should take place off-site. Liminal

Yes, I find that interesting and I´m trying to figure it out. That´s one reason I listened to an hour and a half of videos about NLP and double-binds. We all have opinions and I often disagree with people. Disagreement never gives me warm fuzzies exactly, but usually I can go about differences of opinion without feeling majorly irked. Take Brian, for instance. We disagree, I think, about many social issues. The one that sticks out in my memory now is about planned parenthood and the selling of fetal tissue. I´m generally more aligned with Ralis politically, but we have disagreements as well. Just recently, Ralis thought JoeBlast should of been sanctioned by the moderators for making violent comments (in this very thread, I believe) against Hillary. I disagreed saying that JB was just using colorful language. So what is it about disagreements with you that feel different to me than disagreements with Brian or Ralis? I do wonder about that. Here´s what I think it is: when we disagree they don´t attack my character. Maybe Ralis is right and it´s the double-bind thing. Take the example from the post I quote. (I bolded the part that contains the insult/ double-bind twist.) You imply that if someone "feels threatened" by you then they have a problem, a lack of confidence in their opinions. Either I´m OK with you (which I´m not) or I´m lacking in confidence (which doesn´t feel good either). So there you have it, a classic choice between two unwanted outcomes. Either way, I lose.

If I agreed with Karl I´d call his self-assurance certitude; since I don´t I´ll go with narrow-mindedness. (PS Let´s rename this thread Hillary, Trump and Karl.)

I like what Ralis says about degrees of double-bind. What´s a double-bind for one person, may not be for someone else, largely depending on a person´s ability to take a meta-stance outside the generally unspoken rules of the situation. Suppose Karl says....my view of reality is the correct one and if you don´t agree you´re wrong or bad. Is this a double-bind? If you´re the kind of person who grants Karl some sort of authority it becomes one. You either have to agree with Karl when maybe you really don´t (emotionally painful choice number one) or be wrong (emotionally painful choice number two). By stepping outside the rules of the system ...."I don´t really care because I see that his paradigm is a subset"...the potential to feel double-binded is neutralized.

Ok...I watched almost all of the first video. Lets see if I got this. (1) Have a strong ego and think for yourself. If you concede to someone else´s opinion, rather than standing up and thinking for yourself, that means you´re weak and therefore bad. (2) Agree with me. If you don´t agree with me that means your wrong and therefore bad.

"The past is never dead. It´s not even past." William Faulkner Bad memories and thoughts that bring sadness...these things are part of a person´s internal experience and exist in the NOW. Sure, they might seem to relate to the past but if they are happening now, well then they belong to the NOW just the same. Being in the now means not ignoring what is. What is might be happy or sad. It could be the smell of a rose or the stink of despair.

I don´t know that I have a solution but I´ll share my bias. For me, the answer lies in awareness of the nitty-gritty of bodily sensation and felt emotion. You say you feel disconnected, and I think that´s a great place to start. Just acknowledging that feeling of disconnection as you feel it. It´s not a philosophical position you read about here on TDB, not some notion from any spiritual tradition -- it´s a real honest feeling. It has weight, location, a quality you can describe and recognize. The feeling of being disconnected might not be a feeling you like, but it´s a real feeling and it´s yours. Behind and around that feeling are a hundred other feelings you can discover if you stick with it, and some of those feelings might be more to your liking. The feeling of disconnection is a door and who knows what´s on the other side? Maybe connection. Maybe joy.

Hi Profounded, I write to you as someone who struggles with much the same issues as you. Here´s something interesting. You know how you struggle with some of the decisions she makes? You probably want to shake her and say stop taking crack. It´s painful caring about someone who makes self-destructive decisions. Well, I don´t even know you at all and yet I feel a little bit about you the way you feel about her. I want to shake you and say: Stop Being With This Woman. Don´t you see how you´re hurting yourself? And yet she probably won´t stop taking drugs, and you probably won´t break up with her, and it doesn´t matter one blip how much advice you get because you are both so damn stubborn! Off to the shrink I go to deal with my codependence. Liminal

Hi Profounded, I echo what Karen said about this being a tough spot, and hope you feel better soon. On the surface this situation seems to be about her and you´re just along for the (bumpy) ride. She´s using crack. She´s jumping out of windows. She´s destroying her life. Naturally you love her so this is tearing you up inside. But there´s so much here that has to do with you and I suggest that´s where you put your focus. You can´t keep her from making self-destructive decisions but you can decide whether or not you´re going to self-destruct right along with her. There are all kinds of women in the world, and there´s a reason why you picked this particular one, with all her issues, and not somebody else. Hope that doesn´t sound judgmental; we all pick partners to help us work through our own emotional jungles. Yeah, she´s beautiful. Yeah, she exudes an appealing primitivity. But so do a lot of other women who don´t work as prostitutes and smoke dope. So there´s something about you that gravitates towards the kind of woman that she is, and you might want to work on figuring out what that something about you is. This figuring out, by the way, is best done with a professional therapist who can support and guide you along the way. A few more thoughts . You wonder if you´re missing out by not taking drugs too. Short answer: no, you´re not. She´s missing out on sobriety. About polyamory. I won´t tell you that it can´t work, but it´s a hell of a lot harder than more conventional relationships. Compared to monogamy it takes more maturity, more honesty, more gentle compassion. Polyamory isn´t the right path for people who are still making suicide attempts and struggling with drug addiction. You are having a hard time right now. So focus on yourself, take care of yourself, make decisions that support your own needs. She´ll take care of herself or she won´t, but, either way, there´s not a darn thing you can do about it. The most loving thing you can do, for everyone involved, is love yourself. Liminal

I´ve noticed something (mildly) disturbing. Lately, some of our best Bums have been packing up and leaving -- or announcing that they´re considering such a move. We´ll miss each and every one of them if they do go and stay gone. I can´t possibly know what´s best for someone else. (A lesson I´ve been learning bigtime these last few weeks, and a story, perhaps, for another post.) But I suspect some of those leaving decisions have to do with moderation and administration issues, and about that I´d like to say this: please ignore the men behind the curtain. Moderators and administrators are human beings that make mistakes just like the rest of us. Their position of power doesn´t make them better than you. (Something you may have noticed.) They do their best, I think, but the way this board runs -- far from perfect. People are sometimes chastisted, suspended, or even banned who maybe shouldn´t be. Some posts are mysteriously "disappeared" when they shouldn´t be, while other posts -- posts that arguably should be taken down -- continue to hobble on into cyber-eternity. Well, you know, so what. All I can say is, good thing we don´t have the death penalty. What makes Daobums a great place isn´t the pitch perfect administration, it´s the quality of the postings by the rank and file. For the most part there´s a lot of great conversation happening here. Questions get asked and expertly answered. Conviviality happens. Perhaps you´ve been unfairly dissed by the powers that be? Please don´t let that injustice keep you from adding your unique voice to this imperfect yet wonderful place that is TheDaoBums.

Nungali, Yeah, it´s good to remember this is just an internet forum, not to take it so seriously. Karl has a very skillful way of keeping me engaged with BS. (Perhaps it´s the NLP?) Of course from a more evolved spiritual point of view that just shows me where I have more work to do...blah, blah, blah. I should probably thank him. Nah...

I can´t prove anything. But I can -- and did -- demonstrate a pattern. It´s a pattern you´ve chosen to continue in this last sentence of your reply to me: implying that there´s something wrong with me and that I should "ponder" what that is. I expect you´ll reply back to this post with a post of your own telling me that I¨m wrong and how that wrongness reflects on me as a person. If you´re true to form you´ll conclude by asking me to complemplate my badness. Out of courtesy to the other Bums (who I suspect are weary of this exchange), I will refrain from replying back.

I quoted your post and took the liberty of bolding all the statements in which you attack my character. At least I´m in good company: here´s a quote from another thread in which you attack Brian´s character. Karl said... "It is you that stand by faith over reason Brian. Using a personal history that I willingly shared to bolster an argument is weak, a betrayal of your own integrity and that will definitely sting. Let that be your guide." So what´s up with this? I´m sure that if I wanted to go back through the history of your posts I could find many more examples. You habitually have negative things to say about others -- the question is why. Now you´re a smart guy, Karl. You know what you´re doing. You might claim to be trying to help, just pointing out the flaws of your fellow bums so they can better themseles. Well I don´t buy it. I think you deliberately set out to hurt people. That last statement is the crux of my post and it bears repeating: you deliberately set out to hurt people. I say this not because I think it will have any effect on you whatsoever. I´m sure it won´t. I say this as a warning to my fellow bums who might inadvertantly stumble into your trap. You know how sometimes on highways there are signs alerting drivers to potential hazards. This post is such a sign. Falling rocks. High winds. Dangerous curves ahead.

The word bothersome bothers you? Me, I´ve never made any claim to be among the enlightened, the detached, the peacefully cherubic. Maybe someday, we´ll see. As it is I´m often annoyed, irritated, and occasionally bothered. Even, sometimes, by you. No need to point out how this all reflects poorly on my degree of comfort in my own skin or whatever; rest assured, I´m working on it.

You read me all wrong, Karl. Perhaps I wasn´t clear. I don´t expect an apology, from you or anybody else on the board. (Waiting around with that kind of expectation would tie up a lot of psychic energy, and whose got the time?) My comment was a general one: that the kind of person who has the humility to apologize -- to anybody, for anything -- wouldn´t be likely to be a bothersome presence here. It wasn´t at all about anybody apologizing or not apologizing to me personally.

Hypocrisy? Oh probably. I´m a mess of contradictions and my actions don´t always match my stated ideals, I´ll be the first to admit. Arrogance? I don´t think so. In my real life people don´t see me as arrogant. I´m more forceful and opinionated online though than in person, so perhaps I come off that way? If anybody wants to share feedback in this regard I am open to it. (Though it would be better through PM if you´ve got something really negative to say .) Do I owe you an apology Karl?

Nah, I don´t think so A&P. Not in my crosshairs anyway. Daobums is a big complicated Indian curry and the spice you bring --complex, subtle, long peppery finish -- blends with the others just fine. (The Bums who bother me would never apologize online. They don´t have the humility.)

Things I learned from TheDaoBums... Advanced meditators lose the sense of a separate elf. They feel fun with everyone and everything. They´re plugged in rather than slugged out. Who needs a cheap shag when you´ve got cosmic swag? Practicing fling retention for schlong periods of time will make you either very popular with the ladies or lead to prostrate cancer. The civil war was not about slavery. It was about sexession.

Actually the system of Yigong by Jenny Lamb that OldChi mentioned is the original version of Kunlun. So there ya go...Kunlun.

Ah OK, I see what you mean. Saying Hillary should be lynched -- inflammatory language worthy of Trump himself. But I´d give JB the benefit of the doubt: I think he was expressing himself forcefully and with color.. From his other writings, I gather that he thinks Hillary ought to be imprisoned. Perhaps he thinks she deserves the death penalty as well. But to me that´s different from saying somebody should assisinate her.

Ah, I´m afraid I´m the guilty party here Ralis. I admitted that I hadn´t read the post which you said alluded to violence but nevertheless believed what you said -- about the veiled violence, I mean. At the time, I didn´t know it was a post from Karl. So, please, no offense Karl. I just tend to trust Ralis´s point of view about these matters is all.

Ralis, I think you and I are pretty aligned as far as our views about many social issues and politics. And yes, I´ve read some of those threads and often shake my head and wonder what people could possibly be thinking. I haven´t read the recent post you´re referring to about veiled violence, but I believe it. If you leave over protest because of these things, I´d certainly understand. I just hope, selfishly, that you don´t. Liminal

Yes, but what about the mantra? May I suggest...meow, meow, meow...

I love that D.A.D. shared his out-of-the-ordinary experience; stories from direct personal experience make for inspiring reading. But this thread illustrates why most choose to keep their most profound spiritual events private -- some people take great joy exercising their skeptical abilities and not always in the most sensitive way. For many of us, our deep spiritual life is the most vulnerable part of us, something we rightly treat with tender respect. This is not to say that the conclusions D.A.D. draws from his experience are correct. Or that there´s anything wrong with debating the issue. But if you´re levitating or walking through walls or waking up after death, well, I´d think twice before posting a detailed account or, especially, a video. Just sayin´.

I think Kunlun and the Healing Tao practices are difficult in the same way all genuine spiritual cultivation is difficult: you don´t get very far without bumping up against aspects of yourself that aren´t pretty.