exorcist_1699

I joined in 2007 ; but before that , what I understand is that this forum had been existing for many years . I really do not like the name of it .., anyway, it is one of the not so many Taoist forums overseas when you compare to the quantity of online forums of Buddhism . Taoist style is always somewhat 'arrogant ' , and to ordinary people , it is the most indifferent religion in the world. All other religions preach zealously spiritual immortality , only Taoist preach physical immortality coldly .

From Daoist perspective , the answer likely is yes . They better be full , so that we can have those qualitative jumps. However from Zen's point of view , it is not necessary as stages or steps are not its concern . Zen fully makes use of people's subjective initiative , and add some extra dimension to our spirit . Zen is beyond logic and time, this is why and how Zen can be so powerful , or so difficult . In that sense, talking about steps or stages of accumulating jing or qi is not necessary, but blockades. Daoist interpretation of Zen's uniqueness in methodology is : In terms of contra- logic, people can ignore jing and qi , go straight forward to cultivate Shen , thing on the highest level , yet at the same time finish the jobs of cultivating jing and qi , things on lower levels or earlier stages , at one stroke .. ; in terms of no time , people can go to the future achievement first , then later solve the problem at the present .. Daoist Wen Shi School ("文始派" ) is in this sense the school closet to Zen , yet still via Jing, qi and Shen ; for example , it says , right at the very beginning of cultivation : - "以我之精，合天地萬物之精 ; 以我之神，合天地萬物之神 " (" Cultivate our jing to integrate with the jing of the cosmic ; cultivate our Shen to integrate with the Shen of the cosmic ") - "能見精神而久生；能忘精神而超生 " (" Those who see and grasp jing and Shen can live very long ; those who forget what their jing and Shen are live beyond the boundary of life " ) Notice that these are not only talking about levels but also ways or methods ; in fact , all superb things in Zen and Daoism are , in philosophical terms, the unity of epistemology , methodology and ontology ; and , any trial of separating them implies steps and differentiations, therefore means entanglements in cultivation .

Jing , the essence of life , is unlikely to be kept or consolidated ; it is after having it changed to Qi, can we keep and consolidate it . Similarly, we cannot keep Qi and consolidate it for long and for a big amount ; it is after having it changed to Shen, can we keep and consolidate it safely and substantially . Jing and Qi are always in dispersal status . So, the law of the increase of disorder , entropy , not just applies to the physical world but also to the world of Qi , yet only up to the so-called post-heavenly level . Beyond that , say after our success of nourishing embryonic breathing and break open the Magic Gateway , the law stops to be true because now we no longer solely get our own Qi to live, but limitless Qi outside . Notice that external world always "steals" our jing and qi secretly in scenarios unnoticed , that is when we are in sleep, in anger, in depression ..etc , it is only after our capability of consolidating the mindless Mind ("不神之神" ) that can us be safeguarded from those secret loses and reverse that one-dimensional time's arrow towards aging and death.. There is in fact a dynamic balance between qi (with jing assimilated ) and Shen , the more jing and qi we accumulate , the higher a level of Shen we need to reach in order to keep those qi and jing secured , not leaking , yet it is in sleep , in frustration , in anger , in unrest ..etc that we can't consolidate our mind to do ( read the famous book " Yin Fu Jing" ("陰符經" ), a Daoist classic next to Laotze and Chungtze. )

There are many differences between Daoist alchemy and TCM / Acupuncture , people who come from the Acupuncture or TCM background may already have sensed them , and be perplexed by them , so some explication seems to be necessary : 1) TCM is for healing diseases or delaying aging , Daoist alchemy is for getting rid of aging and for immortality , both physical and spiritual as they are inseparable ( the socalled Xing and Meng dual cultivation); 2) While mastering TCM requires you to know well the 14 channels and those acupuncture points on them , Daoist alchemy ,as a concentrated , simplified version of TCM , focuses only on the DU and Ren channels ; and , what you need to know are those few acupuncture points on the DU channels that will potentially make you stuck when doing the Micro-Cosmic Circulation . ( Notice that the Macro-Cosmic Circulation is not classified as your qi spreading from the DU and the Ren channels to other channels, but as your internal qi spreading outside of your body , linking it to the external energy ) 3)Different from acupuncturists who pay attention to channels and acupuncture points , the three Dantians ( low, middle and upper) , areas where qi likely arises , are what the Daoist alchemy practitioners interested in. Dantian is always first a Daoist alchemist term , then a term adopted by TCM's medical qigong . 4) To master the basics of TCM , you need to know well what the Six stages ( Tai Yang, Yang Ming, Shao Yang, Tai Yin..etc) are and the 5-element model , however, in Daoist alchemy hardly does it pay any attention to the Six stages ; what you need to know is something about the 5-element model , yet not to that extent of their intricate relations for healing , say , in order to make the son (kidney) strong, you tonify the grandfather (spleen) beforehand ; anyway, the 5-element model is under the Qi framework . Do not mix up the Chinese 5-element model with other cultures' , and claim that Wood or Metal is one of the basic elements that forms the world . No, the Chinese culture is always a qi dominated culture that most other things originate from it and be manipulated by it . 5) Formula : In order to heal ,if you are a TCM doctor, you need to write a formula that targets at those symptoms , and the formula is always composed of parts of plants , insects or minerals; if you are a acupuncturist , your formula is a group of acupuncture points that can deal with certain symptoms . However, in Daoist alchemy , your formula is the looks seemingly simple formula : Jing + Qi = Shen or Jing=> Q=> Shen . What you make use of is just your mind, breathing or body movements , or their combinations. 6) Qi's meaning in different contexts : In TCM , Qi , no matter it is the Zong Qi (" 宗氣") inside of our chest or the Wei Qi ("衛 氣" ) , qi guarded just outside of our skin surface , all is classified as yang , and our blood/ essence ( and other forms of liquid: sweat, phlegm, tears.. ) classified as yin . However, in Daoist alchemy , all qi, including those we initialize from our dantians , is classified as yin Qi because what Daoist alchemy targets at is the pre-heavenly yang Qi , and from that higher level , all the postnatal/ material things below , even in an invisible form like qi , is yin . It is that hidden pre-heavenly Qi , which has both yang and yin aspects , as a Taiji , be the source of life . So here we get two levels of things , the pre-heavenly ( not necessarily equals to prenatal ) and the post-heavenly( not necessarily equals to postnatal ) , and they both can further be divided into yin and yang , which is therefore called " 二重天地, 四個陰陽" ( " Two levels of Heaven and Earth , and four yin and yang") . Of course , it is an important concept in Daoist alchemy for it tells us the boundaries : what we can achieve within what arena ; however, hardly does TCM require it because what TCM works with are just the post-heavenly qi and blood/ essence in channels , vessels, organs and skin surface . Maybe the only term of TCM that related to the pre-heavenly level is the "Mengmen" ( literally means " Gate of Life") . Liu-I Ming's writings do talk about the Two-level concept, but not in its relation with TCM.

Qi, whatever media (needle, herbs, mind..) we use, is always the way to heal.

Of course I do. In fact, some of Shang Han Lun's formulae are composed of only two or three different herbs that their meanings not so difficult to grasp.

Thanks a lot. Nothing special about my practice. In fact, I am just a guy who can read Chinese classical texts of TCM and alchemy and translate them into English. Of course ,I test all those means ,except piercing a needle, related to qi on my own body and mind .

I think Awaken and Cleansox are talking about things similar , so I would like to add : 7) TCM not only manipulates qi of organs ,say via herbs , but also manipulates emotions or characters of these organs so as to cure mental diseases; for example , disease arises from our anger (liver's emotion) with someone and our attachment to such anger can be counteract or dissolved by provoking our fear ( kidney's ) of losing something due to such an anger . On the other hand , Daoist alchemist solution to all emotional issues is simpler and straight forward for it just initializes that taiji (composed of invisible ying and yang) hidden in a place called Mengmen inbetween our kidneys , and nourishes from it an emptied Mind , then all emotional troubles is said to be solvable . It stresses that the way of our dealing with troubles and adversities in life , hardly should it be anything of an analytic mind , nor ego dignity , let alone emotions , but our Xing ( some kind of spiritual ,consolidated Oneness ) . The saying I always like to quote is : "To those who succumb to life scenarios with emotions or mental tactics , you are called the ordinary ; to those who eliminate life scenarios with your Xing , you are called the Immortals" (" 境殺心即凡, 心殺境即仙" ) It is to say that , not only qi of our body organs , but also their emotions ( maybe viewed them as split ,biased shen) , can be used as ' fuel' to cultivate our Xing .

Thanks your comment .

Daoist alchemy does provide a way similar to Zen . It is a way looks close to Zen's yet without its defect of a likely submission to just achieving a Yin-typed of mind . Such a way is always described as " Cultivate thing on the upper level, and simultaneously sublimate things , jing and qi , on the lower levels " ( "修上關, 蓋下關" ) . That means instead of following the traditional way of accumulating jing first , then to its fullness , you jump to qi ; and when qi is full cultivated and accumulated , you jump over to cultivating shen.., no , you start by going straight to its very high level , shen . Concretely speaking, you start by doing Zen-like emptied Mind cultivation , to an extent so thorough that it can reversely return to the jing and qi levels , and integrate them at one stroke . It really looks like a short-cut and something wonderful , however, people who can do it is limited to those gifted ones. " Gifted" in the sense that they are either teenagers or people who thoroughly understand the delicacy of what the emptied Mind is yet without losing too much jing when they were young.

Comparing to emptied Mind stuff , Visualization is more interesting and easy to start , and it gives people a feeling of more effective because they pre-tell themselves the results , and it must be what they want . However, it is unlikely be anything really effective , for example , consider someone gets a malice tumor in his brain , right inside his consciousness , can it be cured by his imagining it shrinking be got rid of ? The answer is likely not . Accustomed to visualization also makes people later return to emptied Mind stuff more difficult .

If we look at it from TCM or Daoist view of qi , then it is quite simple : All emotions : Anger, jealousy , anxiety , fear ,sadness .. we get from daily life do have effects on our organs' qi , obstructing our refining them as a whole * . Although by focusing our mind at the lower dantian we start to pull those qi together around our mind , any serious fluctuation of our emotions, say get very mad at something , can smash our achievement easily . And the higher level we attain, the more severe a damage of such emotional burst to our body will be . Besides , it is only after those qi having become not so chaotic and come together , can we consolidate an integrated Mind from them . So , Daoist emphasize of virtue does have both moral and practical consideration. *The exact saying is "pack those five different qi and return them to the source" ( ' 五氣朝元' ) .

When people speak of qigong , I think most of them refer to medical qigong for health . On the other hand , Neidan is for immortality . Yet both make use of jing and qi , and pay attention to dantian , so why not mix ? The key is how you use your mind , which differentiate them . I think many qigong making use of postures and body movements , and when you finish them , you should be taught of drawing your qi back to the lower dantian , isn't it a way of " building dantian" ? In fact ,still qigong can mix with action qigong , say you do qigong with whatever postures in daytime , and you practice still sitting there no movement qigong ( if you call such a status Neidan ) in night time .

In general , men start from lower dantian and women start from middle dantian , so at the initial stage they start differently * . Once the basic job achieved ( men stop their leakage of jing , no matter in awaken or sleeping status; women get rid of their red dragons ) , they then go on the same path . Women's path of alchemical cultivation looks easier because their red dragons' forms fixed and emergence regular to deal with provided that they are free from diseases . Men's weekly, fortnightly release of jing are more irregular to be identified , so their white tiger are hardly founded and tamed . However, women need to get a very bold and unconventional mindset , and be careful to the liver qi's influence on them , so as to take advantage of the predominance. * For other gifted people , they can start from the upper dantian , from edge of the body ( nose tip or somewhere just before eyes ) , from emptiness outside of the body or from nowhere . Of course, starting from different places / no places means they will face different problems or lost in nowhere afterwards..

You miss the tiger in the picture , they always appear in pairs . It is only after the dragon , which flies in sky and appears in elusive forms , is trained and tamed , will the white tiger on ground submit to us . Training of the dragon is the most difficult job yet unavoidable , once it is done , people can ride on the dragon and become something god-like .

Buddhist type of "enlightenment" or the non-experience of non-duality is hardly anything the end point of Daoist alchemy because in most cases, those people achieved it are in fact , just nourishing a yin-type of mind . A yin-type mind , although having some supernatural abilities and looks powerful , is still entangled by aging and death ; that means, it is incapable of grasping its destiny in its own hands . And, without having refined with jing and qi , it is said to be a yin-shen . Unable to stop leakages of jing and shen are the main causes of it . To be fair , some Zen masters , by solely doing some emptied Mind stuff, do get very healthy bodies or some teeth reborn ,yet it is not enough . In fact, a mind that explores emptiness is like digging well for water , it is only after your having reached certain depth that water /jing ( of course talking about its pre-heavenly form) oozes out . So , from Daoist perspective , one of the most important criteria to judge whether your cultivation of emptiness does well or not , depends on how thorough it changes the physical body .

Both schools believe that the basic life energy is hidden in emptiness everywhere , only that Daoism calls it pre-heavenly qi ( a trinity of jing ,qi and shen ) , and Buddhism calls it the Buddha Heart . The gap between the human mind and the Buddha Heart / pre-heavenly is just too huge for people to cross, so these two schools develop respective ways to make it easier . In the case of Daoism , because the pre-heavenly qi is already embodied in our body , although in its deficient , split form , if people follow the jing=> qi=> shen way to return and take control of the pre-heavenlt qi , they will be free . Which is also easier compared with the Buddhist way ( Zen's ) for the Daoist one gets some stepping stone, say qi at the abdomen area, clear and easy to start . Of course , in this process , people have to ignore the repeated interventions of a karma- burden spirit, whom people always mistake as their egos yet are always in control , and the power of the analytic minds , their combination is so powerful that it is extremely difficult to be got rid of .

There are two hurdles to pass if people follow Daoist way towards Immortality ,and they can be very " technical " : 1) Whether or not people can initialize qi ,ie , convert their essence ( jing) to qi or not . If not , the life energy in their bodies are still not grasped in their own hands , but leaking outside , mainly through sex or nocturnal leakeags . If they can turn their jing into qi , then they can reverse the direction of the downward flow of jing , now in the form qi, upwards to their spine and brain ; which also means some start of reversing the direction of the time's arrow of their life . In fact, many old people do have feelings or doubts about whether they have lived through their lifetime or not , a period full of so many events and moments : those regrets , successes and defeats, yet now all became so illusory and uncertain . Unfortunately , although they can doubt the ever existence of them , the lost hair , withered faces and crumpled knees are so real as proofs , beyond doubt ; the proof of the flow of time is not people's subjective feelings , but things that are jing-related . 2) Whether they understand and grasp what an emptied Mind is ? Notice that " focusing on qi " , " visualizing qi as a light ball ", " leading qi to a place wanted "..etc all are those mindsets unrelated , not so suitable . Assume that you are learning Physics, in order to answer a simple question say how far a car has traveled in certain period of time at certain speed , what you need are some arithmetic skills of addition and multiplication ; but in order to solve some problems in higher Physics , say in Thermodynamics, about how gas molecules behaves under various conditions, then you may need some mathematical tool ,say partial differentiation , a specific mindset of varied levels of abstractions , to handle it . Similarly , in the arena of qi, we also need some specific kind of abstractions , now intuitive not analytic, like Zen's , to handle the high-quality qi ( pre-heavenly qi ) we are targeting at .

From Daoist perspective , the Buddha Heart is not just Shen , but Yang Shen, with " Yang " added to emphasize that it is a result of a process of refinement : jing => qi => Shen . It also tells us that it is a Mind no longer entangled by the physical body , but a free one that can enter and leave it at its free will ; with its destiny grasped in its own hands unlike a yin-typed spirit once left the physical body , becomes lost and succumbed to unknown force . Likely people need to get enough jing to initialize qi , and enough qi to jump to the status of Shen ; many people who can not initialize qi is because they do not have enough jing in their bodies , say , the old guys . And people who can not grasp what Shen is likely is because they do not get enough qi, with jing embedded , accumulated . Daoism also emphasizes that after accumulating enough jing and qi , and let your mind do nothing to intervene, then you can enter a breathless status, which is a prelude of embryonic breathing , important for generating Shen ..

It is useless to use Google Translate to deal with Daoist materials written in Classical Chinese , too many mistakes and meanings too deviated from the original texts' . I wonder why people think that it is okay .

Some thoughts on jing , which is so important that ambiguous ideas about it can only lead us to mistakes in practice : Origin : Jing is the life energy that our parents drew from outside emptiness when they had sex ; although their bodies' health do affect that dose of life energy , for example , a healthy father/mother always give birth to a healthy baby who might live a longer life , that dose of incoming life energy is limited, and as we all know it is something limited to a 130-year duration for humans. Consider life energy abounds everywhere and is what Dao mainly expresses itself in this universe , it is a pity that most people live so short a life on this planet . Forms and Expression : Originally that life energy is a trinity of jing , qi and shen , not split . Anyone who carefully studies a baby of several months old can catch what it means . It is its later growth and after puberty that it splits into three parts , yet still closely linked . Our body can be viewed as a hierarchy of yin (jing ) and yang( qi ) : We can say that top of our body is yang, lower part is yin ; back as yang and the front part as yin ; material part as yin and qi that motivates it as yang .. Furthermore , from the whole up to the organ level, every organ has its yin (liquid/material ) and yang (qi) ; so when treating a deficiency of kidney ,for example, we have to identify what type, yin or yang-typed of it , so as to apply the medical formula . Of course, over this yin/yang combination , every organ has its shen , which is why organ transplantation can transfer original donor's character to other people . Qi and shen are always invisible , but jing can be invisible and visible ; in fact, jing's changing forms confuse people ; of course, whenever it is materialized and seen , you no longer can use it . In sex intercourse, the jing released is not solely from the kidney , but all organs' , this is why male get a whole body tiredness after sex.

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In fact , there are many ways that enable people to mobilize qi : Focus their minds on dantians, acu-press some acupuncture points on their bodies or adopt some postures (Yoga) or movements of body (Taiji / Martial arts ) ..etc ; But upgrading the quality of the qi they have mobilized is more important , and , the emptied-mind issue is the challenge hardly can people evade . So there are two ways that serious practitioners must know : 1) Taoist : It mainly uses qi to empty the mind , then conversely use the settled mind to upgrade the quality of qi ..., so it tries to form a positive feedback series to do the job. Or, use Taoist jargon to express it : " let qi and shen have their intercourse like sex ( cling to each other.. ) " ... 1) Zen's : Very difficult one , just for those gifted ; however once having mastered it , it is more thorough and allows you to evade many side-effects. . Questions like " Can a mind without any concepts be a mind ? " or " A way without doing anything be a way ? " ...etc, if you do not view them as some kinds of philosophical bullshits coming some people's vanity of showing off their intelligence , but some kind spiritual creation to exploit those layers of emptiness so that people can gain energy and intelligence from it.. How about Tantric and Pure-land's ? Although they are hot and popular among the crowd , I am not so interested in them.

中派就是氣走中脈, 不走任督 , 也就没有所謂周天 . 西派是陽氣升時置身心於身外虛空. 也不走任督 ; 如Shubin 所引,西派的 汪東亭論之甚詳 .

There are 3 criteria to judge whether you suceed in laying the foundation of Taoist alchemy , they are : 1) Whether you can stop jing leakage or not ; capable of doing it is said to be a guarantee to a very , very long life ; the Taoist classics always use hundreds or thousands of years , or a period that " the mountain crumbles " or " a lake dries up " to describe it . 2) Whether you can stop the ordinary way of breathing, ie , leakage of qi . Embryonic breathing is the core , lung breathing is just its expression , they are related . If lung breathing is always dominant , then there is no way that the core appears to you . 3) Whether you can stop ordinary way of thinking : stream of consciousness, fluctuation of minds..etc , ie , leakage of shen . Shen is the core , daily analytic minds , fluctuations of minds are its applications and appearances . If it keeps leaking ( pay attention to something , analyze something..) , then there is no way that the consolidated form of it appears to you . Of course , the 3rd one is the basic, thorough one because without the achievement of it , the 1st and 2nd one are not secure , despise your having achieved them .