freeform

10 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

To get strength and power, top balance, unable dislodge by others. e.g. Jacky Chan style

Yeah - horse stance is helpful for youngsters as it shapes the muscles in a way that emphasises the kwa…

 

Just don’t go too wide - it looks impressive, but disconnects the kwa. (In that image they’ve got it about right).

 

I’ve seen some modern callisthenics people get into horse stance training - but somehow they manage to make it a muscle endurance thing rather than kwa training… I imagine there’s better muscle training for the legs (pistol squats maybe?)

 

In reality once muscles and ligaments realign, it should take only very moderate effort to stay in horse stance… and you could do it for hours without too much muscle strain.

 

However horse stance is still ‘external’ in that it won’t allow for qi to sink. It’s just setting things up well for internal work.

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

These days people don't bend the knees so much.  Most do it as in his standing photo.  It is more than sufficient for health or internal developments.  Too much bending would hurt the knees and other problems if you are not very young.

Really the knees themselves are of little importance - it’s the kwa that’s of prime importance… the knees will follow the kwa.

 

No sinking into the kwa means that the posture will not assist with sinking the qi (and will in fact ‘assist’ in the opposite direction).

 

When you say ‘most’… most are not interested in qi or sinking or anything internal - just a way to get older people to move their joints so that they don’t clog up the hospitals… CCP have made a grand effort to take all qi out of qigong and make it a gentle form of exercise - that is all.

 

If you’re interested in internal arts, don’t follow “most”  

25 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Not if no one knew it was me 🤷‍♂️

From what I’ve seen - lots of people know exactly who you are…

 

And the more you talk, the more you reveal about yourself.

 

For people wondering why teachers are selective about who they teach - here’s a prime example!

 

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I think your views of morality are simply immature

 

 

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

is superior virtue said to arise when a certain level of harmonisation is reached?

Yeah - it depends what you mean by harmonisation really…

 

It’s not the basic level of qi harmonisation - it works at a deeper level.

 

But there’s definitely a mechanistic aspect to these things too… it’s said that as each virtue arises, so do various ‘siddhi-like’ signs…

 

But this is way beyond where I’m at… I’m still very much a contrived pleb with all this 

3 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

"Natural ethics"

This is definitely a thing in Daoism - known as De (or virtue)… as in Dao De Jing.

 

Superior virtue is known to be ‘spontaneous’ in that it’s not contrived by the mind - instead it’s something that arises naturally from a very deep aspect of ourselves… to achieve superior virtue is considered to be a very difficult accomplishment indeed…

 

Until then we’re advised to use the inferior contrived (or externally/mentally imposed) virtue - even though it’s very much inferior, it’s just better than base animal instincts…

 

It’s the base animal instincts that consumerism plays on (‘sex sells’… but so does pleasurable food… status… and power over others)… the classic ‘base desires’. The ‘automatic pilot’ for most people.

9 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

For example, I’ve often thought of buying a subscription to the IAA, ripping all the videos, and releasing them on google drive for people to use freely. Maybe not the best decision karmically, but hey, maybe it benefits people 🤷‍♂️

While I think teaching your own stuff for free is admirable, doing what you say above would be deplorable… as well as illegal (rightfully so).

 

I was thinking maybe Damo was a bit rash to kick you out - but his decision seem pretty wise right now!

Don’t know Beth, but Pa Auk has produced some fantastic cultivators!

 

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I hope to go there to practice my own thing

If she’s a promising teacher, why not practice what she’s teaching?
 

You could do your own thing at many other monasteries that accept practitioners.

1 minute ago, MetaDao said:

My point is that I would rather teach an extremely poor person than a rich politician like Donald Trump. 

That’s great!

 

But how would you force another teacher to do the same?

2 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I simply think that the elites and non-elites are just as entitled to spiritual growth  

That’s fair - and I think they have equal access… yes you might not be able to afford to train with a certain teacher - but there’s certainly another one that you could afford.

 

Plenty of donation-based teachers around. You can read any book you want for free at a local library…

 

We have it pretty good!

13 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

The ‘rich’ and the ‘poor’ exist only because of our current societal systems.

I don’t believe that’s true… there’s degrees of equality - but never absolute equality… our experiments with making that happen that have been pretty catastrophic.

 

Pol Pot was also an enthusiastic idealist like you who disliked elitism…

 

Yeah there are empowerments, mind seals, transmissions, qi emissions, heart to heart and mind to mind transmissions… direct qi repatterining… lineage transmission and more 😬 

 

They're all slightly different. 
 

Everyone uses different terms - which makes it complicated 😅

 

People sometimes use the term ‘transmission’ as a term of learning (sharing of key information) - sometimes they mean energetic transmission.

13 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I don't consider Neigong or Qigong spiritual.  It is a general viewpoint they are skills only.  Anyone can teach these, atheists, scientists, down to earth people....    Neigong is especially non-spiritual.  It is an adjunct of external martial arts (Internal Kung Fu). 

There’s Neigong for martial arts and there’s Neigong for internal development - very different.

 

But I agree they’re not necessarily spiritual. They can be leading to spiritual practices - but not spiritual in themselves. And it depends on the teacher - most of what you see is just for health and exercise with friends in the park.

20 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

What about when the teacher apparently spends all their time trying to attract new students? 

To me - that’s a good a sign as any that you should avoid this teacher 😅

 

Get what is useful - then get the hell out 😬

7 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

So, could we posit that a Western spiritual teacher necessarily exists within a specific cultural context? A context which intuits that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven...

Yeah - remember that in the East, there’s rarely that feeling of unfairness or lack of virtue when someone is wealthy - whether by individual effort or by inheritance… it’s considered that their actions in previous lives have brought this fortune to them. So in a way wealth is actually a sign of virtue - (if only from a previous incarnation.)
 

This is as deeply (and subconsciously) ingrained as the ‘camel through the eye of a needle’ thing is for westerners.

 

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And that this different way of seeing things that you allude to is something that it would be very difficult – on a really deep formative level – for a Westerner to ever truly understand? And that it could therefore never sincerely apply to a Western "spiritual teacher"?

Yeah - unless the person is able to drop this karmic pattern - rare but possible.

28 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Does embodying the correct ethical qualities increase a student's probability for success (all other things being equal)?

There’s two aspects - personal and lineage.

 

Personal means are you aligned with your deeper ‘Self’. Do you feel completely comfortable - on a deep level with what you’ve done in the world? If you feel iffy about your behaviour in any way, you’ll simply be unable to enter meditative absorption - which is necessary for intermediate level of inner work.

 

Awaken mentioned conscience - this is like an aspect of your manifest self with a connection with your deeper self. If something weighs heavy on your conscience - it will preclude you from accessing meditative absorption.

 

(Does that mean that a psychopath that has done questionable stuff but it hasn’t stained his conscience in any way gets away with it? Yes… to some degree 😬)

 

Lineage - this means that there’s a lineage transmission - and you’ll only be able to align with it fully if your conduct fits within that lineage’s framework. If it doesn’t - then you won’t get the ‘extra help’ from the lineage transmission… it’s like you won’t be able to fully pick up the radio station - you’ll get lots of noise and crackle along with a bit of transmission… when a disciple of a lineage, this is even more important as your Self and the lineage have entered a sort of pact - and not following the lineage ethical framework will impact your personal alignment with higher spirit also.

1 hour ago, NoOne said:

Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further.

 

And that’s the reason it’s difficult to learn from books.

It’s not physics - it’s Neigong. 
 

The centre of gravity he’s talking about is more of a felt sense internally - not Newtonian physics.

 

You could even bend your knees and still have this ‘centre of gravity’ up in your chest.

 

Easy to demonstrate in person… clumsy to explain in a book.

 

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I don't want to come off as nit-picky

There’s plenty more you could nit-pick… this is probably the least problematic.

 

If you want to explore his system, probably best to put aside your assumptions temporarily - follow the guidance for a period of time and see for yourself.

21 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Yes, as human beings we may feel no real threats yet the Earth, its natural ressources and others species of lives may not exactly feel the same.

Yeah that’s true - as humanity we certainly have an overconsumption issue… but I personally think that’s more of a problem for us than for the planet.

 

Earth has gone through much worse… many times over and come out the other side. This phase is many lifetimes for us, but just a sneeze on the planetary timescale.

 

Overconsumption affects a deeper aspect of us - and that causes us to lose our spiritual connection. That’s the real issue from my pov.

41 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

failure of the effort of education and civilisation

I wouldn’t be so sure - yes of course the world is not perfect - far from it… but right now I'm feeling reasonably secure in that a band of warmongers won’t suddenly ride into town and start raping and pillage me and my loved ones…

 

External control - as imperfect and problematic as it is, still has its place. It means that people’s base impulses are kept in check - and our civilisation allows for a relatively safe and peaceful existence. 
 

We often have ideals that highlight what’s wrong with our current condition - but being too invested in our ideals blinds us to what’s actually working pretty well right now.

Early on it’s simply about keeping students in check - and making sure they’re ripe for growth and transformation…

 

Later on ethics take on an even more important role.
 

Once you touch Spirit, there’s a sort of unfurling of latent karmic patterns.

 

Its a strange thing in that you must be doing rather well in your practice… you will be feeling very good, you feel like you’ve touched the enlightened aspect of yourself - and you have… but this is also where trouble starts - unnoticed.

 

You're feeling all blissed out and strong and full of love - while just under the surface the backlog of karma begins to unwind - often in your behaviours.

 

To you this won’t be obvious at all. You’ll feel unshackled from moral dogma and unattached… normal rules don’t feel like they matter - because you’ve got a direct connection to God!

 

But in fact this is where ethics are of utmost importance!

 

This is where you’re at risk of slowly starting to become abusive, taking what you want from people… manipulating people and events to fulfil your desires - all done unawares - because as I say - you’re full of light and love while doing it. Even the manner in which you go about it may appear benevolent to you or to others - yet it’s all serving some karmic pattern inside.

 

Thats why ethical rules are important - to keep you within bounds of the code of conduct that allows for spiritual growth in your particular tradition.

 

Whats even more important (in my opinion) is a watchful eye from your teacher - as they will be able to see the motivations and the more subtle subversions of your conduct towards personal aims…

 

Another aspect is when you’re selected as a disciple by your teacher - then the rules are more strict - and will be designed to protect the purity of the lineage transmission. The specific rules will depend on the lineage - some for instance will forbid having a family - others won’t. 

On 21/12/2022 at 1:05 PM, freeform said:

I’ve shared practices that are worth experimenting with many times on the forum. They’re just not that exciting and mentally stimulating for most  

Someone just very helpfully reminded me of one such post (I never remember what I post where!). Thank you to that person!

 

 

5 hours ago, NoOne said:

If the teacher seems to be skewed towards profit-driven marketer more so or equal to that of teacher, then I would be very cautious.

Indeed.

 

I’d say that if a teacher spends more time trying to attract new students than on the students they already have - that’s certainly a red flag.

 

The money thing, in China and with the Chinese diaspora especially, is harder to discern.

 

I knew a teacher that charged 5 figures for an introduction. I also found out that he had absolutely no need for the money because he was already wealthy from a very successful industrial business he had.

After the introduction he would either teach you for free - or not teach you at all. Why he did this, I have no idea. I’ve heard some teachers say that you simply can’t go deep into the spiritual practice without having enough to support yourself and not be concerned… and similarly without being too attached with what you have - maybe it’s that.

 

Years later I found out from one of the seniors that this teacher ran an orphanage and sponsored people’s expenses at a hospital - but these were not publicised things at all. Only a few of his closest students found out about it by accident.

 

All you saw up front was - an apparently advanced teacher that charged $10,000+ just to meet.
 

That’s as red flaggy as it gets…

 

but it’s not the whole story.

 

What I did notice is that most of the really advanced teachers wanted as few students as possible… but they had to be good students. So there’s always a lot of hurdles to jump to be accepted.

 

Things work differently in the west though.

Excuse me for talking about Awaken in the third person - but I’m pretty sure she’s blocked me - so no point talking TO her.

 

I believe she’s talking about the manifest level (light) of spirit and soul…

One of the many communist ‘cultural heritage’ plants around China…

 

Ive never trained with him, but heard bad stuff sadly. Well done for recognising the issues - many don’t.

21 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Do you have any recommendations for how they might learn the applications of metaphors used in these texts?

Zifagong in an open field is Awaken’s main method from what I’ve seen.

On 22/12/2022 at 5:57 AM, NoOne said:

Is it not that being a master of Daoist arts is supposed to be associated with wisdom and some degree of altruism as a result of spiritual growth?

We have preconceived ideas of what wisdom means - how it should look.

 

Wisdom, to us looks like some sort of ideal… and this ideal is based on our acquired experiences, our conditioning…

 

We grow up in a culture of extreme consumerism and so we think wisdom reflects some ideal that’s the opposite of that… oh look he’s so happy living with nothing… teaching for free… giving away everything. He must be very wise.

 

Maybe we grew up in a famine… where the opposite is true - people are eating bark and shoe leather to survive. So to us, we see a wealthy, healthy person as wise… look how she’s so curvaceous… how she managed to accumulate wealth even though the world is so desolate. She must be extremely wise to manage that.

 

Is either of these views wisdom? 
 

I’d say no - it’s just our knee jerk reactions based on our conditioning.

 

The whole point of true wisdom is that it doesn’t come from conditioning… if it does come from conditioning, I’d call it cleverness… wisdom is something else entirely.

 

I had a teacher at one point that loved cowboys… liked the outfits, the movies, their pioneer mentality. How weird it was seeing a short, happy Asian dude wearing a cowboy hat - yet having amazing internal skill.

 

Last I heard he dropped the cowboy stuff altogether… barely remembers being into it when people ask 😅

 

Our views of how things should be are born of our own conditioning. This is the opposite of wisdom.

 

Then again some so called masters cotton on to this ‘crazy wisdom’ and use it as a guise to do what they want (base desires).

There’s that well known Tibetan Lama that came to the west, became an alcoholic, beat and abused his followers, slept with all his students - and everyone ate it all up coz - you know - ‘crazy wisdom’. I even see him still getting quoted around here from time to time 🤦‍♂️

 

We’d like things to be black and white, easily discernible, easily understood.

 

But we often get too caught up in our own preferences, our own conditioning to really see what’s in front of us.

 

Just coz a teacher is teaching for free, doesn’t mean a thing… some of the worst, most abusive teachers ‘teach for free’.

 

Sometimes teachers ask for ridiculous amounts of money… and it’s up to your discernment to work out if this is coming from a place of greed or something else. Don’t let your knee jerk conditioned response decide things for you. It’s the same knee jerk response that will pull you into a scam or a cult as well as turn you off of a genuine teacher that doesn’t conform to your views.

 

How could a little dude with a cowboy hat possibly be a Neigong master!?

 

Remember a genuine spiritual teacher is just as concerned with getting the right kind of student as you might be with getting the right kind of teacher. There’s more to these teachings than just information!