freeform

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Interesting how the DDJ approach is differentiated from Alchemy.  I had thought some pieces of alchemy were present in the DDJ, but that it hadn't been systematized yet.

 

Makes me wonder how much (edit: tantra/energy work, not alchemy) is necessary for the Buddhist approach?  🤔

I also think it’s very interesting

 

The alchemy pieces in DDJ are not really alchemy - they just come from the same root (Yi Jing). There is also a theory that the text was edited to include alchemical references later down the line - but who knows.

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

hehe - well you see there are two sources of the fluid. one is advanced another is not so much but both are good and not one of them is secret both are in OSINT. come on tell us, it will not impugne you!

The ‘not advanced’ one  

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

This is the best description on the purpose of Taoist alchemy.   People are using it for many purposes. 

I think the main issue is that they’re using the alchemical model to supplement their experience or understanding in a different tradition…

 

And traditions don’t necessarily mix.

 

In fact mixing traditions will usually dilute everything and muddy it all up.

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

Haha your buddy seems to think otherwise  

  Hide contents

 

 

Haha - as far as I’m concerned I hear him completely agreeing with what I’ve been saying.
 

I just don’t agree that the end result is reaching ‘realisation’ for Daoist alchemy.
 

But that’s a great clip, thanks  

50 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

For example, attaining the elixir, as explained to me, is like building an engine.

Oh I’m nowhere near that stage.
 

I personally think the number of people who have attained this in the last few decades is in the single digits range.

 

So I’m talking about stuff that’s much earlier in the process.

 

If you don’t have thick, fully open channels… strong Dantien and a lot of Qi - then most alchemical methods will have very little effect (not enough juice)… and some alchemical methods can fry you (too much juice - not enough cup 😅)

 

Thats just my experience in the early to intermediate stages.

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

I’m not saying they are. I’m suggesting that they are preparatory for the mind to be able to have those insights. An unprepared mind is incapable of realization - that is what alchemy is.  
 

Daoist alchemy is not concerned with insights that much.

 

You’re more likely to get penetrating insights attending to a flower than to the neijing tu.

 

Not so with much of the Buddhist stuff though!

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh congrats. where exactly did it flow from?

Sorry buddy - not a conversation for general consumption  

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Taiji Jin is not the same as a “siddhi”, though it might look/feel similar - it is pretty awesome though, but not the same thing.

Yup - I agree. Just using Taiji as an example  

 

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Patanjali’s yoga sutras has an entire section dedicated to siddhis — called the vibhuti pada. TL;DR is - they are epiphenomena, and different ones may or may not manifest depending on the individual practitioner. They are neither necessary nor indicative of the “level” of a yogi/tantric. 

Yeah I’m aware of this.

 

However in Daoist alchemy they are used. Certain siddhi come about as a byproduct of certain processes having matured.

 

Different paths do different things  

1 minute ago, dwai said:

What you call philosophy in this context is not simply mental (Ie monkey mind level). Iy deals directly with reality and realization in a apperceptive manner.

Not at all.

 

I think insight is the key process of spiritual growth in some paths.

 

These paths use specific frameworks and concepts that are designed to help insight arise. (Like a koan for example)

 

The Daoist alchemical models are not like that at all. That’s not their intended purpose. They’re simply used to describe an inner process.

 

It would be a clumsy tool for generating insight  

3 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

So what is is about?

 

Genuine question 

Actualisation.

 

Realisation is an intermediate step for alchemists. This realisation is ‘made real’.

 

To an alchemist, physical reality is just one part of spiritual reality… once the spirit is touched, it is developed through every aspect of reality… including the physical…

 

To an alchemist, a spiritual realisation is only complete, once it has become actualised in the physical realm (as well as the many other non-physical realms).

Oh and before this comes up again (as it always does).

 

Siddhi are NOT the aim for (most) alchemical systems. If it’s a spiritual system, then siddhi are not the aim.

 

But they are byproducts. And they’re used as clear indicators of the completion of various processes.

 

Internal experiences are generally not trusted as indicators of completion.
 

I know it’s not quite a ‘siddhi’, but when I first had the jade fluid begin to flow, my teacher stuck his grubby finger in my mouth, pulled it out and tasted it. Nodded in approval and walked off 😅

On 23/11/2022 at 1:36 AM, dwai said:

Mostly siddhis appear during a certain phase of a certain type of practice, and then disappear (unless someone cravenly holds on to them). It is neither an absolute necessity, nor a sign of attainment of any significance. 

For tantric paths like Daoist alchemy, siddhi are very much part of the path.

 

It’s like saying that the various expressions of jin are not a sign of attainment in Taiji.

 

Yes if you make Taiji a choreographic art for the elderly…

 

But jin does appear as a product of genuine training. If it doesn’t appear then you’re not really training Taiji… or at least you’re not training it for it’s intended purpose.

 

Similarly If siddhi don’t appear, if physiological changes don’t manifest, then something isn’t quite right with one’s alchemical training.

 

The vast majority of Taiji practitioners never develop jin… the vast majority of alchemists never develop siddhi - this is true. But that just shows you that it’s not an easy thing to achieve - not that it doesn’t exist.

 

 

On 23/11/2022 at 8:37 PM, dwai said:

On the topic of pre-heaven and post-heaven qi, they are not really separate things as I understand it. At one level, there is a continuum of flow happening between the universe (microcosm) and the individual (microcosm). It’s that double toroidal structure, the two vertices are above the crown and below the feet. We can call this the “transactional reality” (Heaven-Man-Earth). 
 

At another level, there is no separation between microcosm and microcosm at all, since all of it is appearing in consciousness. We can call this the “absolute reality” or “Dao”. 
 

The transactional reality appears in the absolute reality.

 

The alchemy is a matter of realization, not of attainment/creation/production. 

The alchemical model (concepts like Jing, Qi, Shen) are not philosophical models. 
 

They are not designed to give an accurate model of ‘truth’. They’re not designed for examination. They’re not designed for contemplation or for creating insight.

 

They're just pragmatic names for things one comes across inside.

 

They only hold transactional meaning - not absolute meaning. The framework is designed to explain and guide internal practice.

 

Coming up with philosophical understandings from this mental framework, I think is not particularly useful.

The periodic table is a model with absolute meaning… it’s a map of ‘truth’. 
 

The compounding instructions for creating chemical compositions aren’t a map of truth - they’re pragmatic operational instructions. The alchemical model is closer aligned to this than to the periodic table.

 

Neidan is NOT about realisation. Or not just about realisation. Building, creating, attaining absolutely are an aspect of Neidan.

 

Not all Daoist methods are Neidan-focused. There are Daoist approaches to realisation. But these are not Neidan. 

 

I’d say work to sit cross legged - unless it’s causing/irritating an injury, or you’re really not able to do it.

 

Generally, for most practices, there won’t be a major improvement with sitting cross legged.

 

Most of the alchemical methods I’ve learned require it eventually though.

 

So it’s good to train yourself into the posture over time.

 

For me it’s now the most comfortable way to hold my body in space - as much as laying down. For about 8yrs it was incredibly uncomfortable… and all my seated work was a torture as a result - until something shifted pretty much overnight.

14 hours ago, MetaDao said:

The point I am trying to make is that Neigong is not a prerequisite process.

Yeah I understand - I disagree… but I also realise that there are many ways up the mountain

 

Most of us are starting out not at the very peak of health. We have tons of baggage… we’ve been depleted, our channels have closed and our organs and internal processes are in disarray… Our emotions are easily triggered, our mind is dull and unfocused… our bodies are in a regular fight or flight mode… Our minds are completely entranced by the dramatic spectacle of the acquired self…

 

If you haven’t built the channels to a high level… if you haven’t cleared most sick qi… if your inner system is not in relative balance and harmony…

 

Then adding the incredible amounts of power generated through alchemical methods will simply fry the system.

 

Of course it depends on the methods… not every alchemical system generates or requires the same level of qi… some go for refinement and subtlety over raw power… others focus on mobilisation and flow…

 

In my opinion - you need all of them. 
 

Imagine you’re an incandescent lightbulb… you’re starting out with a filament that can handle say 30 watts…

 

With Neigong we (my teachers particular approach) want to build up the strength and thickness of that filament until it can handle 3000 watts.

 

Then we use alchemy to generate ever more power to get to that wattage… Then we refine the output… so that there’s less heat generated by the bulb and instead more light generated.

 

Putting 3000watts in a 30watt bulb will result in the bulb popping.

 

Thats what qi gong and Neigong (and even the martial arts to some extent) are generally used for.

 

The reality is that the distinction I made above is not really that clear… there’s a lot of overlap in the process - but this is a simplified mental model.

 

I’ve trained with teachers that don’t build up from the bottom first (thickening the filament) - and they go for the light directly. The result is a bunch of fried students… only a minority get anywhere (and they’re the ones that have trained from the bottom-up in other schools)… And even they tend to reach a level beyond which they’re not able to progress…

‘Neigong’ is internal skill… so martial arts will use that term to mean exercises that develop the internal (rather than the more normal external) mechanics…

 

Non-martial schools often use the Neigong label for methods that can be considered ‘more advanced than qigong’. This comes mostly from the fact that qigong usually involves movement to create internal change… whereas ‘Neigong’ in this case is generally more static, and change is created internally without using external mechanics.

 

Damo uses the Neigong term a little differently still. As far as I understand what he calls Neigong is the process of inner transformation (it’s the process not necessarily the methods or exercises themselves).

 

In reality, it doesn’t really matter as long as you understand it in your own context.

15 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

...Though reducing Karmamudra to sex with your girl/boy friend would seem to be missing the point somewhat

I watched a bit of that Guru Viking interview with Nida Chenagtsang… I like that his teacher was called the Horny Doctor 

 

(I think I would be suddenly and miraculously healed of all my ailments if I had to go to the horny doctor for healing!)

 

To me it just seemed that he was a horny dude that wanted to do some spiritual practice (high status pursuit there) and get laid doing it… Was he born in the west maybe he’d want to be a rock star instead.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

I feel that's the way you're all arguing for: negate and negate and negate, until there's nothing left to negate.

What you’re touching on in regards of ‘affirming’ or ‘negating’ is related to the path of the ‘renunciate’ and the path of the ‘householder’.

 

A renunciate (basically a monk or a hermit) controls the outer circumstances in an effort to create an internal change. Rules and environmental circumstances are used to negate the negative effects of life.

 

Daoist alchemy generally falls under the path of the ‘householder’. They aim to make an internal change directly - inside - and the outer circumstances are used as a ‘pressure-test’ for this change. 

 

But it’s not as simple as negating or affirming.

 

It’s not that the householder with spiritual aims affirms or negates the pleasures of life. It’s that they don’t cut themselves off from either the pleasures or discomforts of life.

 

Sometimes it’s called ‘one foot in, one foot out’… or ‘being in the world but not of the world’.

 

The primary mode of operation is acceptance - not negation, not affirmation.

 

The key is non-attachment.
 

Denying sex, denying pleasure is as much a type of attachment as is leading a life in pursuit of them.

 

What I’m talking about is not a denial of pleasure or of sex.

 

I think that’s a really important thing to understand.

 

The alchemical path is more concerned with developing non-attachment to these things.
 

Meaning that you can have sex, but not be ensnared by it… you can have pleasure but not be blinded by it.

 

It means developing non-preference. 
 

This is the aim.
 

So any method that is based on increasing sensual pleasure invariably leads in the opposite direction to spiritual cultivation.

 

The funny thing is that simply practicing spiritual cultivation (including non-attachment) actually makes life more and more beautiful, magical and ‘pleasurable’.

 

Whereas cultivating hedonic pleasure over time leads to a deep inner emptiness. The making of a ‘hungry ghost’.

 

This is not important for non-cultivators. You can do what you like as a non-cultivator in my opinion.

 

Though I’d say a ‘good life’ would be one lived in pursuit of helping others… not in fulfilling one’s hedonic desires… But that’s just my opinion.

The stuff above is not just my opinion  

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

In Freeform's view, as I understand it, taking pleasure in viewing or creating art may be a deep human experience but does not bring a person closer to soul or spirit because it's an entanglement with the sensory world and the original spirit is something entirely other than that.  (Feel free to correct me Freeform if I've got you wrong.)

My main point was that any practice or system that is based on pleasure will not lead to spirit - and more likely send you in the opposite direction.

 

The part about art was about the fact that art can lead one to a deeper experience of the human heart-mind, but it can not lead to spirit.

 

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying art though! Or enjoying anything as long as you don’t cling to the pleasure of it.

On 13/11/2022 at 2:47 AM, chaosbananaman said:

 

If you don't mind me asking, what else does alchemy fuel in your tradition other than meditative states? 

It creates transformation - on various levels

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

back in the 00's that was a popular hoax in china.

These days people implant electric devices under their skin to simulate Fa Qi  

 

Being blinded by spectacles is a sure fire way to become entangled in a scam.

 

Then again ‘miracles’ are demonstrated by genuine teachers to demonstrate attainment too…

 

I’ve seen plenty of fake ones and a few real ones too.

 

But the miracles to look for are the ones that happen inside of you as a byproduct of training.

 

No one’s gonna fake the flow of the jade fluid in your own mouth… or the thunderous rumble of your Dantien… or the physical changes in your spine… or head shape… or the piercing white light that fills your vision any time your relax and turn inwards… Or even the easy and relaxed attitude that doesnt ever stop - even when you’re in a stressful situation. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

I'm a bit of a one-trick pony at the moment, forgive me... 

 

But in my experience (FWIW), you have to focus on and prioritise money and status to achieve them. And isn't that a form of attachment? 

I knew of a teacher for whom financial independence was one of the main prerequisites to being accepted into the school. 
 

He charged an incredible amount for an introduction (the price of a nice, new German-made car) - but would teach for free once you’re accepted. 
 

I couldn’t afford the intro  

 

From my experience teachers always work to build up the student before deconstructing.

 

For instance you must make your body strong before being able to release the gripping of your muscles.

 

For some teachers you must be very successful in worldly pursuits to be able to release them in favour of spiritual practice…

 

For others you must be brave and confident before you can release fear.

 

I guess it can work in the opposite direction too. If you were born into wealth, you may need to lose everything before your attachment to wealth can be let go…

 

In my experience the people that do well in these arts have their life reasonably well-sorted.

 

I guess if you’re in a low state where life is a difficult overwhelming thing that you can barely handle - the part of you that clings or lets go will not be able to release its grip on what little it has…

 

When life is reasonably ok - and you feel you can handle things well, you’ll have an easier time of releasing your grip.

 

And I think there’s a difference between success that’s achieved through greed and success that’s achieved through competence.

 

Competence is an important quality  

20 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

But it still nags at me what if all neidaneers are like that and i am guilty of poking fun at people with issues? I hope not. (sigh)

Never nagged at you that you’re the one with the issues? 
 

Joking aside - yes there’s all kinds of stuff in the spiritual marketplace…

 

Teachers often say it’s up to someone’s Ming whether they find the true path or not… I’ve always though that people are actively led astray while in search of it - and so I have and continue to call out anything dangerous or run by charlatans…

 

But there are many teachers and systems that I consider to be ineffective, misguided, deluded… or simply entranced by some trivial part of the path.

 

They're not particularly harmful… they don’t pose much danger - a kind of harmless hobby.

 

I never call these out. It’s not my place.

 

(though if someone asks I’m not shy to share my opinion).

 

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I am the single person in the entire green world who translated the entire WL legacy from cover to cover.
 

Thats what i sell - the first hand knowledge. Thats the diff. Thats what i have and they dont. We are not the same.

Congratulations on the epic translation effort! That’s quite an accomplishment!

Will you be publishing the translation? Or is there more money in keeping it to a select few?

I should also probably add that denial or suppression of sexuality is also a form of attachment.  

 

The type of systems that cut off sexuality (eg monks, priests etc) are hoping that by the time this becomes problematic, the spiritual connection you develop will get you over it…

8 hours ago, Creation said:

For instance, for you say attachment to sexual pleasure takes you in the opposite directions of spirit, so why not be celibate if you are a cultivator?

Because it’s the attachment - not the sex that’s the issue… it’s just that sex has a particularly sticky quality

 

If you retreat from the world, you lose the feedback that life provides. It’s easy to feel unattached when away from temptation. And you may think you’re unattached when it’s just a lack of stimulation of that part of you.

 

You can have sex and be unattached. You can have money and status without the attachment too. You can appreciate sensory pleasure and not be ensnared by it. The harm is not in these things, it’s in what happens for most people inside as a result of these things…
 

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And for those of us who haven't been through a torturous retreat with a teacher who knows what they are doing to develop detachment from sensation, what hope do we have of making any progress? 

well it’s not the only way to do things! This is an outside-in approach. Some teachers use martial arts training… or even the more unpleasant parts of Neigong training to achieve a similar aim. Becoming a monk has a similar effect at the start. Your head is shaved, your clothes are taken - these are outward displays of identity - and that’s a way to sever the attachment to identity on a gross level.

 

They key quality is acceptance… and the key transformation is of the zhi.

 

Most of these sticky instincts are based around fear… we’re obsessed with status because we feel we don’t have enough of it, or we don’t feel accepted… or that we’re simply not xxxx enough to deserve it. It’s the same with lust, greed and so forth. It’s always this sense of lack and this fear that we’re not enough.

 

At certain points this fear simply drops away. And if there’s a spiritual component to our training, something else is allowed to take over.

 

On that retreat I didn’t completely lose my attachment. I just gained strength and acceptance - this isn’t a transformation as such - it’s simply a deep recognition that satisfying desires is not the point of life. That was certainly a big step.

 

I definitely have not shed all my attachments. For me at this time, it’s my connection to spirit that’s stronger and ‘brighter’ than my connection to my view of myself… but that doesn’t mean I’ve transformed my attachments yet