freeform

https://youtu.be/iW0_U1O3ynQ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFB458458F14ED867 these sorts of things

Haha yeah I know. But this is generally broken up over two or more sessions. And I’m pretty obsessive about training - wouldn’t really recommend it to everyone. I do between 2 and 4hrs of training per day in total. In this context by ‘opening the body’ I mean just loosening joints, stretching out and ‘untightening’ - nothing too esoteric. That’s tricky. I combine quite a few things. I also focus on one a particular area at times (shoulders/hips/neck/spine)... A lot of the stretches I’ve seen Chinese martial arts practitioners performing for example. I also combine some joint mobility drills from Scott Sonnon. And some bodyweight strength training - animal walks, some bagua style leg strength and various core strength routines (planks etc). I’ll have a look for some videos on YouTube if that helps.

Qi level transmission works pretty well on these types though 😬

How long for? Which stretches? In general I do about an hours worth of stretching and joint mobility work per day. Some days way more. I’ve been doing this for many years. It takes a long while for the body to open. The way I’ve learned it, standing practice is not for opening the body and mobilising Qi, but for building structure and correct body principles. Later it can also be used for filling with Qi. You’re right to bend the knees. What about your kua and your hip joints? Do you sink into those? Do you go to sit on the imaginary bar stool behind you?

As Aetherous says - lots of stretching and joint mobility work. This is a necessary component of Qigong - and a good way to warm up before your standing practice.

I think you completely misunderstood me. We’re actually completely in agreement. I even mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that bodyweight based movement like the animal walks are an excellent (and imo necessary) component of the internal arts. Core strength, flexibility, fitness and skillful control of your ‘external’ movements are a must if you want to get anywhere with the ‘internal’ arts. The only thing incompatible is lifting heavy weights. In fact I’m actually replying to you after a two hour session of stretching, core work and slow, connected tiger walks.

🙈

ZZ is an intermediate level practice. Doing it before laying the foundations (internal connectivity) will do nothing at best and stiffen you up at worst. Unfortunately Qigong is a difficult and intricate art... because you’re retraining the very fundamental ‘engine’ of movement. While also building the correct body structure. This takes time as well as correct practice. It’s not easy or intuitive. It can only really be learned well with a good teacher. And you don’t see ‘benefits’ for several years. So it’s much harder to train than the likes of ido portal type movement. But the upside is that once the fundamentals are down, the scope of where you can take your art is way beyond ‘the ordinary’.

If you’re thinking that it sounds like a good way to create attraction and desire in people - it’s really not. Its far easier to just make a lot of money. It’s easier, quicker and more dependable. Daoist Longmen tradition (mostly).

Back to the after work pub chat it is then At least it’s in the correct part of the forum now.

To get out of our heads is not really the point. But that’s another discussion. So the crux of your argument is that throughout the thousands of years of documented spiritual practice all of these people that reportedly managed to gain enlightenment had it all wrong. But you’ve got it right. And you think it’s all bollocks. Which is fine - you can believe what you want. I’m not arguing with that. That would be pointless. But to call me a snob for following this path of an established esoteric spiritual tradition is a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?

Having gone through certain stages of Chong mai opening, I was advised to stay in solitude for a certain period because it creates strong attraction and desire in other people. I took the advice - so I’m not sure if it’s really the case. But the fact that I was advised to stay away from people suggests that it’s probably not good for your spiritual cultivation to be in control of people’s desires in such a way.

It looks like elitism and snobbery to you because you believe that ‘we’re all on a spiritual path’. You seem to think that somehow spiritual cultivation is completely apart from any other human endeavour. It’s quite common to think that spirituality is available to all... It’s about as available to all as surgery is. Yes you can become a surgeon, but you need to dedicate a part of your life to training to become one. And you may fail. Spirituality is even more involved - you often dedicate your whole life to it. Not to reading books, buying crystals and talking about spirituality, but to actual (often very challenging) spiritual practice. Which takes many hours a day, every day for decades on end and for some it’s their full time occupation. Would you call a surgeon elitist because he condemns diy surgeons? Is a surgeon a snob because he has trained in and therefore knows more about surgery than you? Now that I’ve explained my position - that spiritual cultivation is similar to any other complex and challenging human endeavour - explain to me why you think it’s something completely the opposite of that - something that everyone already does...

Qigong uses a different ‘engine’ to its movements. It’s what's called ‘internal’ movement. What that means is that over time as you actually achieve the aims of Qigong, you start to use something other than your muscles (although the muscles do have a small part to play). This ‘something other’ is something like the web of connective tissue, the fascial network - although in Qigong there are obviously finer distinctions. As you begin to be able to use this new ‘movement engine’ it starts to mobilise and build ‘Qi’. Also Once this new engine is built in your body (it takes time), it will extend into your other movement practices. Your body will feel denser, stronger and more fully connected. And after a while you begin to develop a very noticeable vitality and energy. Qigong and the likes of animal movements go very well together. But it doesn’t go well with weight training. Hope that helps. PS - what I’ve explained is only really with Qigong as taught by very good teachers. Most teachers just teach empty floaty movements. You’re far better off with the likes of animal movements than with bad Qigong.

I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that because I claim that something is trivial from the perspective of spiritual cultivation that means I’m lost in triviality? The triviality is in the eye of the beholder type thing? And you want examples of people not discussing identity politics?? You can probably see that instead of diving into the subject as is, I reframed it as a discussion about the place of identity politics in spiritual cultivation. That’s more interesting to me. And I think it’s a more pertinent point in a spiritual cultivation forum. I’m not sure where you got that I’m against freedom of choice. I repeated it several times that triviality is fun and entertaining and that it’s probably a good pastime for non spiritual cultivators. Without judgement or condemnation bit. Granted that new-age, Instagram-friendly spirituality is free of that, but the classics and the spiritual masters are not like that at all. At least not with their students and apprentices.

Or it suggests a reluctance to engage in triviality. The more you discuss and engage with trivial matters the more importance you give them and the more momentum they gain and the more force they carry which is what harms society. My cat caught a bird the other day. A very pretty, colourful one. He didn’t even eat it. I imagine he just tortured it until it died. Then he vomited on my carpet and went for a nap. Now if we decided that this is abhorrent and we published each occurrence of such an act in the papers and we discussed the issue in forums and we took sides, campaigning against cats and their viscious nature or for cats and their natural instincts... we might even draw parallels with our own darker aspects and call into question our own natural instincts and tendencies. Maybe we need some laws around the issue. Maybe we could get some charities involved. Have some celebrity spokesperson talk about it all... Get some experts in... If this happens all that results is adding layers and layers to our acquired minds and our moving further and further away from spiritual cultivation. It’s fine I guess if spiritual cultivation is not your thing... afterall life is boring without such entertainment. But if you’re a cultivator and you engage in this type of stuff, then you’re no longer on the path. You’re once again mired in triviality.

This is what it really comes down to I believe. When I talk about spiritual cultivation I’m talking about the path one takes to cultivate the spirit in themselves. It is an arduous lifetime process of spiritual practices that invariably separate one from society - if not by distance (most of the high level masters I’ve met tend to live in cities) - but by their disconnection from the societal mentality. This is not everyone’s thing. In fact it’s very very few people’s real thing. Obviously there are those that enjoy feeling spiritual and dabbling in mindfulness for 12 minutes a day. Just as people like to to talk about health but not everyone becomes a doctor. People like to watch gymnastics or musical performances but they generally don’t train to be gymnasts or musicians. At least very few do. And fewer still dedicate their whole life to becoming masters of it. Spiritual cultivation is not for everyone. It’s a process of stripping down your ‘acquired self’ - everything from mental habits, to self identities, to emotions and preferences. It involves a lifetime of dedicated practice and lifestyle compromises. Just like what it takes to become a top solo violinist for example. Most people don’t understand this. They think spirituality is just believing in god or being kind and grateful or doing ‘the right thing’ or furthering a cause or becoming a better person or ‘meditating’ and doing yoga once in a while or lighting incense and chanting om etc etc etc. This is the difference between humming along to a violin solo and being the violinist. And the difference is huge.

Personally, I completely agree with that myself. But that’s completely besides the point I’m making. That’s your penetrating question? Because they are different and have different needs in cultivation. Why that’s so shocking and provocative I don’t understand. For some reason people tend to think that if they’re part of some political argument, the ones that disagree with them hold the opposite political view. That’s not the case with me. I’m not supporting one team or the other - I don’t want any part of the game itself. Sure - I have a view, but I don’t think it’s important at all and not something to demonstrate about or have heated, emotionally charged debates about. Men and women are different. If your body is a male body, you’ve different attributes to a female body - of course competition where these attributes are directly tested isn’t fair. Am I going to get into a heated argument with someone with the opposite view? Am I going to be defending someone with the same view? No. This argument has about the same innate value as whether broccoli or asparagus is the superior vegetable. It’s all just a trivial waste of time. It has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual cultivation and it detracts from it. People fall into the trap of the inherent drama of any such debate - and by giving it a sense of importance just perpetuate this pathetic triviality. If spiritual cultivation is not your main thing in life then have at it, of course - it can be entertaining, just as vehemently supporting ‘your’ sports team is entertaining. But if you think this is anything to do with spiritual cultivation then your definition of spirituality must have come from an Instagram meme.

And now this thread is in the correct part of the forum for just that Well it’s not just me that got it wrong then - but the majority of the classical spiritual systems of the world too. And you’ll need a more sophisticated argument than ‘you need to know where you come from’ to argue against those. According to the spiritual traditions ‘where you come from’ is Spirit, Wuji, Dao etc - not some ‘country’ or race or gender or anything that has any relevance to identity. That doesn’t mean that you have no ‘identity’ on the human level - of course you do, but the aim of spiritual cultivation is to gradually shed it - layer by layer. Not to discuss it and form opinions and take sides on it etc. That’s identity politics. And that just adds layers. Which is fine - it’s just not spiritual cultivation.

Exactly - but PatrickBrown did not frame this issue through the spiritual perspective, just brought up another political hot potato for people to argue over. I believe that any focus on identity politics is counter-spiritual. In Daoist traditions you’re given a new name, in Buddhist traditions you’re told to break away from your family and get your head shaved - all examples of stripping away identity.

I think you’re mistaking this place for an identity politics forum.

Taser body actually

Yeah he’s right - I’d personally stay away from teachers using any such demos for promotion. I’ve only experienced this projected zapping as part of a healing session. Wasn’t expecting it either 😬 It’s tricky to be exact because at certain stages of Neigong, aspects of Neidan will start to intersect. For example the water and fire mixing already gets going automatically in the early to intermediate Neigong stages. In the lineage I’m training - yes you open all the channels... start building internal Yin Qi and Yang Qi and build a physical Dantien before moving on to Neidan. The Qi projection is only taught to certain individuals who are very proficient in medicine - a few of the senior students can do it... and it’s all done before going on to actual Neidan training. At the very least a decade’s worth of dedicated practice there.

PS. A lot of the ‘shiny trinkets’ mentioned are actually the result of just having your channels fully open... before Neidan is even of any relevance.

Michael Winn certainly agrees.