freeform

Sounds like you’re doing better than just fooling yourself with delusion! The reality of the matter is that this sort of stuff takes time and effort, it’s often difficult, uncomfortable and repetitive. There is no practice you can do for 5 minutes a day that will give you transformational experiences, sorry. You have to be honest with yourself with this stuff - if this is all just a passing interest that you don’t have time for and find boring, then why stress yourself out trying to force it? Think about it this way, if someone came to you saying they love the sound of the guitar, but don’t have time to learn to play, can’t afford a guitar or lessons and find playing for a few minutes really boring - what would you suggest? I’d say why bother with it at all!? Find something you actually enjoy I think some good exercise and a walk in the woods will do far more for you than forcing yourself to do some practice you don’t enjoy. Even better, why not do some exercise in the woods... Take your family too

A glimpse is useful, but it will not be stabilised or ‘expanded’ and ‘refined’ without a strong body, open channels and still mind (in that order). I’ve seen many experience chasers that go to advanced teachers to soak up the transmission but walk away with no actual inner growth, just a great experience.

Relaxed strength is another indication. I sometimes stand for hours in I Jong / Wuji posture. Most beginners can barely last 5 minutes in correct structure. For me it’s quite easy and relaxing, because when I settle into the posture, it’s like sitting into a stretchy, springy internal ‘hammock’... or trampoline... (took many years to get to this point mind you!) This shows that I have a relatively more unblocked and connected internal network. However I still have lots of issues to work on - because, for example, I get hot, sweaty and uncomfortable when I allow the energy to mobilise. My legs are also still contracted. So I know my channels aren’t open. The deeper channels have other physiological indications that they’re open.

Flexibility is only one indication of a lack of blockages in a specific aspect of a meridian. There are plenty of hyper-mobile people for example. They don’t have clear channels, they just have no connection through the soft tissues - just as bad as being completely stiff.

‘Elixir of Immortality’ Uncovered in 2,000-Year-Old Chinese Tomb

Thats clearly the case with certain people! I think if this is indeed the trend for this place, then I’ll have to leave myself. I enjoy some discussions and it’s nice to be helpful to sincere people - as others have been with me. But in reality it all just takes time and effort - especially when you’re trying to be articulate and thorough in your posts... Is it really worth it?

You just interpreted it they way that sounds best to you. The sage is not a child otherwise they would have said child. A sage is “he who can free his mind eternally of desire and attachment”... Children are all desire and attachment. As they should be at that stage. However you try, the classics of Buddhist and Daoist spirituality are pretty clear what is the spiritual way and what isn’t. The modern approach is to interpret everything in a way that fits with our own wishes. Which is what you’re doing - adapting sacred spiritual traditions to fit in with your political beliefs. Thats how you get ‘spiritual’ gurus manipulating and sexually exploiting their followers. Is that spiritual to you? Well if everything is then it must be! Hang on - suddenly spirituality is exclusive... Or are you just changing things to suit your beliefs again? In the words of the Buddha in the Dhammapada... verse 64: A fool associating with a sage for a lifetime, Will no more perceive the Dharma Than a spoon will perceive the taste of soup. verse 72: Reasoning is harmful To fools; It ruins their good fortune and splits open their heads

Now that would be a much better topic of conversation! And it goes against every spiritual tradition that I know of. I’ll pick just one word from your DDJ quote to illustrate my point: sage Why do they use sage and not ‘man’ or ‘person’ (as they often do in other verses). The sage is not an ordinary person - the sage is one who has cultivated spiritually. However unpalatable the idea is for you, spiritual cultivation is exclusive. Just as pretty much every human endeavour is in life. You calling something spiritual doesn’t make it so. Someone else viewing their behaviour through a spiritual lens also doesn’t make it so! This is not only nonsensical but actually dangerous. I’m sure you know of all the atrocities committed in the name of ‘spirituality’ when it’s maipulated to fit whatever meaning one wants.

Well... the Latin Church would certainly agree with that, during the Crusades at least. And most of the radical, murderous religious groups nowadays would applaud your view. So you’re in good company. They don't attract interest in a forum focused on spiritual cultivation. I'm very interested in gardening and the natural world, but I don’t discuss that here. I probably could, if I actively framed some gardening subject in a way that highlights some spiritual subject or process. And of course you’re free to do that too. And it might actually create some interest! But you repeatedly just post random snippets of news or some YouTube video you find interesting or controversial and then you post it here... And luckily there’s a subsection of this very forum that’s actually designed for this sort of thing - you’re more than welcome to post news, politics, rocket launch videos there. I’ve had messages saying ‘why don’t you just put him on ignore’. But that goes against what I believe - because I’m sure you have good things to contribute, and it’s pretty self centred to just hide away all your posts. Of course you don’t endear yourself to anyone when you’re being emotionally reactive and disrespectful - but that’s the nature of sitting behind a screen, I’m sure you’d be a lot more polite, articulate and respectful in person. That’s why I give you the benefit of the doubt.

It's great to have a spirituality forum. I've been a member for 14yrs and got lots of value from it for years. And I'm more than happy to share, help and add value where I can. However, if the trend for this forum is going down the Daily Mail clickbait political discussion route then I'll be reconsidering my participation in this place.

I answered both of these and we had an exchange about it. You just didn't like my answer You'd make a great Scientologist.

Space x launches, bugs caught on cruise ships or immigration are not spiritual cultivation topics. They might be interesting topics to discuss - but this is not the part of the forum for that.

Over and over I keep seeing you post news and politics in this forum based on spirituality. There’s ‘The Pavillion’ section to this forum - that’s the correct section for this - so please post these things there.

There’s a lot of ‘weidan’ still going on in Asia. Actually more often in the Buddhist traditions than the Daoist (in my experience). There are many herbal ‘pills’... herbal being a metaphor because they often contain minerals, precious metals and often powdered ‘relics’ - crystals recovered from the cremated remains of past masters. There are various such preparations - they can open channels, completely replenish Jing and start quite profound internal processes. But they always go together with specific types of internal training.

The secret is in the thumbs!

Nope Well kind of Ok ok I’ll explain. The original aim of Daoist medicine and internal arts is for aligning Xing and Ming in spiritual cultivation... So the aim isn’t to turn a negative emotional reaction to positive - the aim is to get rid of them altogether - like peeling layers of an onion, instead of patching those layers up. When you focus on fixing a problem, you create a new ‘layer’ around it - even if your intention is to get rid of it. Because by the very act of singling it out, you create aversion and you give it power (Qi follows Yi etc). The same is the case for positive aspects... If you do a good deed and then focus on it and think how good you are for having done this, you create a new layer (not based in aversion but in clinging)... Thus, the Sage governs: He is empty of Heart, full of Belly and free from desire. His resolve is strong. He keeps his people free of scheming and desire; he does not allow them to be interfered with by the knowledgeable. ‘The people’ by the way, is one’s internal thoughts/emotions/mental aspects.

Good one - that’s certainly an aspect of what I’m driving at. Except the modern approach is to try to reach the root by following the branch... which is counter to the Daoist approach.

The Daoist approach is generally never to single out a problem or emotional reaction and focus on fixing that. Anyone know why that is?

I’m always detracting from the original topic anyway! It’s tricky. There are similarities and there are differences... So they’re not the same thing, no, but they’re a similar ‘level’ of practice. If that makes sense.

Clear a patch of soil. Fertilise it. Plant a seed. Pay attention, pull the weeds, protect from extreme weather, irrigate. = Effort Then allow the seed to sprout, grow and then bloom = No effort

Thats actually a good description of much of ‘the path’. What if these modes of perception demonstrate an intimate knowledge and understanding of the universe?

I agree with much of what you say wandelaar. But I find this troubling: Thinking in this way, and using this term, I believe, limits your understanding of these arts. I understand that these things are often talked of as something very subjective - something akin to ‘mystical experiences’. But actually there are traditions, institutions that for hundreds of generations made it their life’s work to understand this and to pass on the methods of achieving these states. These people aren't the ones going on book tours or holding YouTube talks. But they do exist. And for them ‘awakening’ and ‘enlightenment’ are very specific things. What it is to me doesn’t matter, just as what light ‘is’ to you doesn’t matter - there are people that have gone before you and they’ve discovered the nature of light and you must go through a certain training to understand their reasoning and see the truth of their discovery.

Yes ok I see what you mean now. Well that’s not always the case. In fact it’s often very much the opposite within academia (one of my closest friends is a reasonably prominent biologist and deals with this constantly). The scientific ideal is of course great, but the reality is that dogmatism and money and ‘special interests’ are very prominent in science. So regarding this bit. It’s tricky because the proof is within the context of a spiritual tradition. They’re not for the purposes of validating some materialistic truth, but for the purposes of furthering one’s progress along their spiritual path. Many of these traditions will have specific physical signs that are readily testable. For example Thelerner mentioned that his startle reflex is lessened considerably when he’s regular with his sitting practice. In my tradition when a specific energy channel is open, your startle reflex completely disappears. It can actually be quite dangerous for students that have recently attained this. I know students that have been in traffic accidents, have burned themselves, got into unintended confrontations etc as a result. But there are many stages where the signs aren’t physical. For example entering Jhanna or perceiving Shen Ming... which are internal experiences, but can be verified by teachers who have gone further along the path. Without a teacher, without following a tradition, it becomes very difficult to know whether you’re deluding yourself or not. And sadly most people fall into this camp, because of how spirituality is marketed and understood in the West.

I think that’s a form of discernment - and an important one. The reality of the matter is that these arts are full of delusion. And it’s delusional to think that everyone that claims awakening really has gone through the transformations that are explained in the classics. The value of lineages is that it’s a line of peers who follow the same path - some further down than others - and they can recognise signs of progress and signs of delusion. It’s like a spiritual version of the peer approval process of scientific studies. Like it or not but a person who has gone through the various processes along the path manifests specific physical, physiological and cognitive changes that can be clearly tested and verified - and they are within authentic lineages. Unfortunately Wandelaar, you see this as spiritual arrogance. Much as a ‘flat earther’ would see scientific arrogance in the science world. That, unfortunately is your own delusion (and we all have these blind spots). And that’s where you’re falling short of your own call to discernment.

When you take a physics class at university they’ll tell you everything you learned in high school physics is rubbish. Context is everything. But you certainly wouldn’t be taking university level physics if you didn’t learn it in high school.