freeform

Thats not really what we want to honour. We want to honour the ancestral root. Nowadays we honour ‘innovation’ - in the past we used to honour our ancestors. We want to honour the ancestors because they are the ones that made (and continue to make) the path possible. My auntie’s oxtail stew recipe is out of this world. I could innovate my own that’s true. It might even be quite tasty. Someone else might innovate my recipe still. But as a result over the years, the root is lost - no one even remembers the taste of my auntie’s recipe. Even though these innovations might be great - it’s also possible that my auntie’s recipe was way way better. She might taste yours and say ‘it’s a great start, but try this’ - and what she has to offer is way beyond what you even thought was possible. With spiritual cultivation it’s similar. It just spans thousands of years. I believe that there was a ‘golden age’ of spiritual cultivation. Everything we have now comes from that time. And either what we have are just photocopies of photocopies with a bit of innovation thrown in - or there’s a thread that runs back and connects to the root. Which is what makes a lineage alive, vibrant and potent. Without the connection to the root, you simply have no idea whether your innovation is of comparable value or not. And so what happens is we lower the bar - significantly. Instead of complete physical embodiment of Yuan Shen being enlightenment - we make enlightenment just the glimpse or a dubious connection with Yuan Shen. And we do some semantic gymnastics - ‘there is no time and space and no destination or path’ - and in one way or another this places us at some ultimate position of completeness. That’s what happens when you don’t have a teacher - a superior to tell you that you’re veering off course. That what you think you have is a delusion. Not because they’re mean, but because they know the pitfalls and the myopic view you have when going through these processes. And they want the very best for you.

I’m not sure I understand. The signs are just signs. When fully enlightened, they simply arise... there are specific signs for full enlightenment. One of which is knowing everything

There are so many. Many of them are secret as they’re used to test students. I can probably tell you a couple that I’ve mentioned before or that I’ve seen teachers talk about publicly. A sign of having actually built the Dantien is having a physical golfball to orange sized sphere in your belly that moves - turns, twists, shifts etc. A sign that you’ve achieved Yang Qi is that when anyone touches you while you engage in a certain practice, they receive a shock - like touching a live wire. There are simple ones like having certain tissues grow around your spine and other areas of the body - they can be felt with the fingers... Later levels have to do with manifesting light in various ways (that can be picked up by a camera for example)... there’s a certain skill with transforming physical matter... etc... again I can’t talk about specifics - but you will probably have heard about holy people performing miracles. These are literal. They’re specific signposts on the way. There are other siddhi that can be built quite mechanistically (the Neigong examples above) - but they can also appear miraculous - such as changing weather patterns, affecting people at a distance in various ways etc. They are different than the ones that come about as a result of fully embodying the pure light of Yuan Shen. I realise it all sounds preposterous, if you told me this 10 years ago I would have laughed - but such is the way

Yes - you’re quite right. It also brings up the uncomfortable question of whether all lineages are equal. Are some empty and lost the ‘root’. Have some succumbed to an error along the generations? I can only share the perspective of where I’m coming from - primarily a line in the Daoist Longmen Pai, and a line of Thai/Burmese ‘forest tradition’ Buddhists. And this is after over 5 years of full-time searching. Imagine that at every stage of attainment you grow a real, physical horn on your head - with a blood supply, fully visible and obvious, xrayable etc. Ok - it’s not horns (unfortunately?) - but within many traditions the signposts are literally as blatant, physical and obvious as that. There is no guesswork. There is no question of the perceiver having a certain sensitivity. If you have eyes to see, if you have hands to feel or tongue to taste (ok it’s getting even weirder!) - then it is easily perceptible. It’s obvious to everyone who knows what to look for.

So the general rebuttal to something like this takes on two general forms. 1) You poor wretch - you’ve been fooled. Well I have been taken for a ride by a number of teachers not in relation to this sort of thing. But this has made me quite skeptical and discerning (a quality greatly appreciated by my current teachers). Of course there are many cons going on. I’m aware of them. These are not things that can be tricked and there is absolutely no motives for the people in question to trick anyone - no money changing hands, no recognition or publicity (in fact there’s a very careful ‘firewall’ to avoid these) - no gain apparent. 2) You poor thing, you think enlightenment has something to do with supernatural abilities - these are just low level siddhis - real enlightenment is just a simple recognition of truth etc. These normally come from people who have no such abilities, have no authentic lineage and are just using platitudes to not have to face their delusions. Over a decade ago, in my seeking days, I asked Michael Winn why he and other HT teachers don’t project Qi to help their students. He covered both 1) and 2) in his answer (without seeing the inherent contradiction) But the truth is he can’t do it and because he’s such a well known teacher, he’s never put himself in the humble position to experience Qi projection from another teacher. The truth is that this is very common in authentic Qigong circles - and really not that special - but to face that fact he’d have to throw out the decades of teaching he’s been part of as well as jeopardise his livelihood. If I was in his shoes, I don’t think I’d be willing to take my blinkers off either.

I know it’s a total tease - I didn’t mean for that. But I realised that I should ask what from my personal experiences is appropriate to share openly and what isn’t. Suffice it to say that the ‘miracles’ that most of us are familiar with are literal. Not hyperbole, not exaggeration, not metaphors but real physical abilities.

Yup - it’s definitely one way. But most importantly whichever way you take to get to ‘enlightenment’ - after enlightenment your body is physically transformed. If I explained some of the physical aspects then it would sound like the supernatural ravings of a woowoo madman. When people talk of enlightenment as ‘just a realisation’ - they are talking about something other than enlightenment as I’ve described. They're talking about an important milestone - something many aim for but few ever reach. But in terms of spiritual cultivation it is literally just the very start. It is the discovery of your Spiritual self - the development of this eventually leads to actual enlightenment which is the full transformation of every aspect of you (including the physical) as the full embodiment of the pure Light of your Spiritual self. For someone who’s had a glimpse of ‘awakening’ this is either disheartening to hear or it’s exciting to hear. Because as amazing as it is - it is just the start

Ok! - finally we get to the crux of this discussion - at least you’re direct enough to say it... others just allude You probably also realise that this puts you on the spot a little. (Not surprised you left the discussion) Despite what you say, enlightenment (and pretty much every attainment along the way) is provable. And in fact in most classical lineages it must be ‘proved’ and recognised by your peers. This is both for your own sake (to overcome any possibility of delusion) and for the sake of the purity of the lineage. For example my teachers tell me that it’s relatively common to glimpse Yuan Shen (or the first Jhanna) and mistakenly think that you’re now awakened or enlightened. Because it is a transformative experience. It changes lives. But according to my teachers this is the start - abiding in this sort of oneness is what meditation actually is. This is the beginning of meditation practice I’ve been very fortunate to be introduced to a number of classical lineage teachers - both Daoist and Buddhist. The process was always the same. Firstly there is a formal introduction by someone the teacher trusts. Next I was tested - to see if I had the potential to be a student. The tests were generally very tough and gruelling (such as sitting in perfect posture and relative stillness for 4hrs in busy places) - but not always - sometimes just some tea . And I certainly was not accepted by all of them. The next step was meeting with the teacher and senior students - this usually starts with a specific description of the teacher’s own attainment and who it was verified by and usually including a demonstration by them and/or their students (such as a transmission of a state of consciousness or demonstration of skill in Qi or something else). This is the etiquette that is followed with classical lineage teachers in Asia. The value of this process is that everything is black and white - there’s little in terms of wise words shared - just simple action. That’s simply not the case in classical lineages. There are very obvious black and white truths and falsehoods. This is reflected in all the classics. Thousands of generations of geniuses dedicating their whole life to spiritual cultivation... creating all these useless classics, unnecessary paths of development and pointless lineages when all they had to do is realise that it’s all present already. Poor wretches. Or maybe you just haven quite grasped their teaching yet. I realise what I’m saying is disconcerting and maybe a bit harsh, but I’m honestly not trying to be rude or trying to embarrass anyone - or even downplaying anyone’s level of realisation or attainment. I’m just pointing out that maybe there is more to the path than they realise - that as amazing as their realisation is, that the bar of ‘enlightenment’ is set far far higher than what we may think.

Oh I’m not looking for agreement I’m just looking to see if I’m getting my point across or not. And by seeing what you’re feeding back to me, I can tell you’re not - not quite ‘The Buddha nature isn’t in you - there is no ‘in’ to begin with, there is no ‘out’ - there is nothing to be inside of and there is nothing to be outside of - Buddha nature can only be everywhere at once. The Buddha nature can’t be inside you - because there is no ‘you’ - there is no ‘not you’ - there is only one everythingness. That’s the true Buddha nature.’ You get it? When I talk like this, I’m misappropriating deep spiritual truths. It’s misappropriation because I’m not coming at this from an awakened perspective, but from my little ‘self’. I’m just aping an awakened sage’s manner of speaking. It’s negating what you said without the payback of actual transmission of truth - just the pretence of truth. And not just that, it contains no useful information. If I said “an awakened teacher once told me that there is no ‘you’ because there is no ‘not you’ and all one” - then it’s not misappropriation. It’s passing on information. You can pass on Jesus’s words to me and that would be fine. But if you talked as if you are Jesus... personally, I’d just cringe... You?

Yes you’re right. Think of this statement not as a statement passing on ‘information’ but as a kind of medicine that has an effect. It works when the one saying it is saying it whilst fully present and transmitting the light of her Devine Self. This, as a medicine, can have a profound effect. It bypasses the logical mind and hits deep (if the transmission is there). However when you read it as an Instagram meme, or as an utterance from someone who’s not radiating this Divine Light - then it’s simply a meaningless misappropriation. It lacks both information and it lacks the medicinal effect and it panders to our preferences. When I was sitting with a very well respected Buddhist teacher in retreat in Burma, one of his students asked why there are so few westerners that really get the Dharma (I was the only white fellow in his inner-door group - but he had dozens in his main centre). His answer was literally - they don’t work hard enough. They all seem to think they’re already enlightened.

Dude seriously... You still believe in time!? Wake up man. And how can anything be revealed when nothing is hidden from the light of the ever present I AM consciousness bro?!

If this is a truth that is fully realised in you as you speak then you have every right to say what you please. Just tell us that you’re an Awakened sage and I’ll be happy to defer to you. Otherwise you’re misappropriating the words of sages to fit some aim devised by your personality.

There IS no combination of one thing with another thing. All things and non-things are one. If you don’t see that yet you’re totally asleep man. And by ‘you’ I also mean ‘me’ and everyone else - because we’re all one, abiding in the unfoldment of the present... There are no circumstances man - for there is only one ever-present circumstance of oneness. There is no real or unreal... Everything is both real and unreal at the same time... and time is not real either... and real too... What do you mean ‘your personality’? - there is no You - there is no I. We are all one everythingness man. You’re totally stuck in the western consumerist paradigm dude. What personality!? There is no such thing as personality there’s only the appearance of personality but even that appearance is just an illusion because everything is oneness and pure beingness... wake up dude. Actually it’s quite fun to talk like this... maybe I’ll carry on this way from now on!

Behind this message is a good intention - it’s trying to mirror a sense of a pure, unconditional compassion. But as with anything - if you take a pure virtue like compassion and use it from the perspective of the acquired mind then it will become subverted and this light will cast a shadow. ‘We’re all equal’ turns into ‘we all deserve the same’, ‘everyone’s opinion counts’, ‘we’re all already enlightened ()’ etc.

I believe that a Zheng Ren is closest to ‘an enlightened person’. There are probably different levels - or ‘characteristics’. For example you can completely bypass the transformation of ‘the five lights’ of your emotional personality and jump straight to development of Yuan Shen. Then usually your personality will stay intact but you’ll still radiate your original light... but you will not radiate the fully benevolent virtues (De) - wisdom, compassion etc.

The newageism is talking like you’re writing the classics. The classics are classic because they’re complete and they’re written from a certain perspective. If you go ahead and say that actually you’re a Sheng Ren, and your words are coming from the divine light of Yuan Shen then I’ll stop harassing you and listen closely If, however, just like the rest of us, you’re a spiritual cultivator who understands the message of the ancients but hasn't reached sainthood yet, then I suggest you talk like a cultivator, not a saint. Because the pitfall is that your Acquired Mind will use these words to build another (great looking) layer of little self.

Let’s put it this way. Are you operating fully from the perspective of your Yuan Shen (congenital self) when you ‘speak’ these words to me - or are you operating from your personality? When one is operating from their Yuan Shen at the moment of saying something like ‘you’re already enlightened, you just need to realise it’ then that carries a deep message, a kind of transmission that opens the door to realising this truth. When one is operating from their personality when they say this, it’s just a useless, deluded cliche. I’m sorry if that seems harsh - but that’s just the case. Because it’s a statement beyond words and beyond personality - it needs to be backed up by actual transmission of truth - otherwise it’s empty and meaningless. Again - this sort of ‘there’s no path because you’re already there’ type thing - from the point of a fully awakened primordial self is a great truth. From the perspective of a normal personality it’s just parroting the words of a wiseman - like handing out photocopied sheet music because you can’t play any instruments. Its true that for all I know Wayfarer and everyone else talking this way may well be enlightened beings just trying to help the rest of us realise what’s right under our noses. However just as you’re not likely to find Warren Buffet on a stock trading forum, you’re not likely to find an enlightened person on here. That and I’m not picking up a transmission I’ve met dozens of teachers that talk this way, but have no real attainment to speak of. They may have had en experience at some point, but now they’ve just subverted it into another layer of ego. And the longer they talk this way the more the delusion sets in that they’re enlightened (both in themselves and in their cohort). And that slowly morphs them into a caricature of a human being. And all the creepy power and sex stuff slowly creeps in to the organisation. I’ve also met a teacher who has access to Yuan Shen - and when he talked this way he was radiating the Light and it caused an awakening in me. Because he could actually demonstrate what his words were pointing to. I’m trying not to be rude. And I’m not denouncing any person - just this activity of talking as if your words are coming straight from your primordial consciousness. Let’s all just be real with each other There is a reason that the Dao is translated as the Way... its a path that you take. I understand the underlying truth - ‘The Dao that can be trodden is not the unchanging Dao’... just bear in mind that that’s the first line of the Dao De Jing - it then goes on for 81 verses telling you how to walk the Dao. I understand that there’s a paradox. My side of the paradox is that I’m still walking the path - with a very occasional, very brief glimpse of awakening - and so my words and behaviour match where I’m at. And again - I apologise for being offensive. That’s not my purpose. My purpose is to highlight the difference between awakened and enlightened whilst being real and not talking like an enlightened teacher - because I’m not one. Not even close. And I suspect that you’re not either - which is fine

Yes

That’s a Sheng Ren I describe the difference in this thread.

Ok, I see. My teachers differentiate between awakening and enlightenment. Enlightenment being extremely rare, and awakening being comparatively common. So is Nirguna Brahman attainment equivalent to a Zheng Ren? Is it a full embodiment as pure Yuan Shen in physical form?

Yes exactly. More the second ‘light of awareness in which all is known’. It’s your ‘face’ before you were born. But there is also a manifestation of intensely bright light with closed eyes. Some people with deeply set religious beliefs will see Jesus or Buddha or some other ‘personification’ of this Devine light. Sometimes the light flashes like a strobe. But however it manifests there is definitely that sense of a Devine all encompassing awareness.

Sheng Ren A Sheng Ren is a ‘sage’ said to be awakened (Wu). What this means is that they’ve fully experienced the Devine light of her Yuan Shen. Yuan Shen is the congenital ‘light’ of your true being. The experience is often a bright white light that feels almost too bright and dissolves everything that is not the true you. The experience is very transformative - life is never the same again because you have a deep realisation of your true nature beyond your Acquired Mind. This is awakening to the true nature of Self. Zhen Ren A Zhen Ren is a ‘true person’. They have not only experienced the light of Yuan Shen, but over time, through practice, allowed it to completely dissolve their Acquired Mind. The light of Yuan Shen is constantly present in every moment. As a result a Zhen Ren lives and acts purely from the perspective of Yuan Shen continually. They become a pure physical manifestation of Yuan Shen. A Zhen Ren has fully transformed their emotions into fully benevolent virtues - they have no attachments, ‘reactions’ or even a personality (unless they decide to take one on). They are beyond saints, closer to being a devine deity on earth. Their awareness is omnipresent and they have access to all knowledge (literally). Xian A Xian in an immortal (there are many different ‘sub-types’). I won’t go into this too much (not something I know much about). Basically they are able to not die if they wish. They can also dissolve their physical body into pure light and exist in the spiritual realm if they choose.

You're also talking in concepts. I'm just not pretending that we can get beyond concepts in a format largely based on written text. I am talking from experience of meeting awakened people and meeting enlightened people (well - person). They are very different. I've already explained the difference. I think it may be better to talk about the difference between a Sheng Ren and a Zhen Ren - as someone else has asked me about that and it's a good question. I'll write about it when I have time. PS - I recognise my view is unpopular. My teachers don't talk about these things in the open - and I realise why

I think he's trying to use this circular type logic that I've heard countless times. When it comes from a person with a high level of attainment and in person then it can transmit a certain type of truth. In fact, anything a person of genuine achievement says will transmit a certain type of truth. It's a way of talking that navigates its way through a student's mind and reaches a deeper truth than logic. However, this sort of idea has been constantly regurgitated by every New Age spiritual guru going - and it doesn't mean much - just like the difference between listening to a live orchestra vs reading the sheet music. I'm not saying Wayfarer isn't a highly achieved being. I wouldn't know. But this sort of talk is lost on me after having heard it over and over and over again from new-age and neo-Advaita type teachers. When you spend time with classical teachers the type of things they say mirror these verses: Inactive when one should be active, Lazy though young and strong, Disheartened in one's resolves, Such an indolent, lethargic person Doesn't find the path of insight. Wisdom arises from practice; Without practice it decays. Knowing this two-way path for gain and loss, Conduct yourself so that wisdom grows. PS - it's always hugely unpopular! So they rarely talk this way outside of the 'inner door' group.

Nope I don't think there's even a word for enlightenment.