freeform

That would be very concerning and disrespectful if true. I guess your friend has continued to train with Damo? Since he knows his curriculum? To be honest I find this hard to believe - for two reasons: 1. the Damo I know is full of integrity. 2. I've also had rumours spread about me when I stopped training with a teacher because I found them wanting...

It's a good question - with a very complex topic. There are many levels of 'depth' you can go into it... There are many contexts - jing in qigong is one context, jing in Chinese medicine is another, jing in alchemy yet another... So I'll try my best relate the fundamentals as best I can - mostly at the context of medicine or development in the human body... Dwai put it quite nicely - Jing, Qi and Shen exist along a spectrum of vibration. They are discussed as separate things, but in fact, they're aspects of the same thing, just at different stages of the spectrum - from the most ethereal to the most corporeal... Jing is at the densest end of the spectrum - before it becomes matter. It is not matter. It is not fluids. It isn't sperm. It's not a substance... You can think of jing in two ways - as a 'fuel' and as a 'blueprint' for the unfoldment of life processes... Jing is also split into two major categories: Post-natal jing and Pre-natal jing. Your prenatal jing conditions much of your constitution on a blueprint level. It is informed by many aspects - everything from karma to your bloodline - your parents, and the generations before... it's also strongly informed by astrological factors at the moment of conception and birth... and it is strongly informed by the 9 months spent in the womb - so your mother's quality of postnatal jing at that time - her qi, her mind and emotional state. Jing manifests into the body at the area of the Ming Fire (in the area between the kidneys, ming men etc.) The "fire" aspect of Ming Fire is that spark of life created at the moment of conception and is the catalyst of moving jing into the process of unfoldment of life... The "ming" part is the unfoldment of life and its circumstances - to put it far too simplistically - your 'destiny'. Some issues people find are often the result of a malfunction of the ming fire - meaning that jing isn't properly expressed into the life unfoldment process and you're unable to follow the path of your ming - so life becomes difficult and precarious and you feel lost. The ming fire is often damaged by a strong emotional trauma - usually in the form of some sexual assault or by being forced or dominated in a way that diminishes your sense of self. You can often see this manifesting in a person's body, where it seems that the growth of the body is halted at the stage of development when that trauma occurred. Not that you 'look young' - but your bone structure and body mechanics are frozen at an earlier developmental stage. Anyway... The kidneys are the root of prenatal jing. They're like the physical manifestation of prenatal jing - and they control the process of growth and decline - ageing - as well as the natural cycles of change as a result of ageing - such as puberty, menopause etc... there is a lot of interesting theory about these cycles, the numerology around them and so on - all in the yellow emperor's classic - so I won't go into more details here. Postnatal Jing is rooted in the spleen and stomach! So here's a clue on how to improve postnatal jing... Another clue is that the spleen and stomach are in charge of creating qi in the body... also in charge of building muscle and 'solidity' of the body... and the Yi - or the mind... Improving postnatal jing is the focus of Yang Sheng Fa - basically the healthy living protocols... and it's not surprising what they talk about considering the clues above. Diet is the major contributing force to both postnatal jing and normal people's Qi (spleen and stomach are in charge of digesting and processing food to turn into 'energy'). Along with diet - it's about exercise (muscles), rest, sleep, and the quality of one's mind. This is the fundamentals - good sleep, enough rest, enough exercise, a good diet, no over thinking or too much mental stress (breathing is related to that) as well as moderating sexual activity (for men in particular) and harmonising the menstrual period with the moon cycle for women. Beyond this, we have other ways of working with postnatal jing for specific practices - such as stilling one's desires and breaking habitual patterns of thinking and acting - but attempting this before having a solid foundation is not only pointless but potentially hazardous. Jing travels through the 8 extraordinary channels (not so much the organ meridians) - it moves to Guan Yuan point (bellow belly button) where it enters the uterus and is lost through periods for women. In women, it also travels up to a point in between the breasts and fills the breasts (particularly during lactation). In men, it converts to sperm and sexual fluid and is lost through orgasm and ejaculation. Jing will also travel to the Hui Yin - the perineum where it transforms into base desires. A lot of systems and practices use the perineum because that's where jing descends to. But a very important piece of the puzzle is often left out - and that's that one must still the base desires before working with the perineum. Because without stilling the base desires through meditative practice, you can inflame base desires and turn them into psychological issues as well as unethical behaviour... who's seen unethical behaviour and sexual deviancy in the spiritual arts? Back to kidneys. Jing also controls the kidney Qi system - Kidney Yin and Kidney Yang - these are the manifestation of Yin and Yang principles in the body. Kidney yin governs the cooling of the body, the creation of fluids etc. Kidney yang governs the warmth of the body and sexual desire. The balance between kidney yin and yang are behind a lot of the problems we find in the body. Too much yang, the body becomes fiery, hot, quickly burns up, strong desire. Too much yin - the body becomes cold, damp, slow sluggish low will. These, in turn, affect the other organ systems (heart palpitations, heated liver with out of control kidney yang - damp stagnated spleen, contracted, phlegmy lungs with too much yin). The kidneys are the root of your constitutional health - low vitality and energy and 'lust for life' as well as a weak immune system are all usually rooted in a kidney issue. Kidney jing also grows into the 'marrow' and the brain... if kidney jing is weak - bones get weak (osteoporosis, teeth falling out etc), back (spine) hurts, the brain doesn't get nourished and you develop mental fog, fuzzy thinking, dementia, Alzheimer's etc. Sooo... I wonder how the horse stance relates to any of that

That’s the case with any real teacher. Although I’m always surprised by how much of the ‘real stuff’ he reveals even to the tourists. In general it’s the potentially dangerous parts that are left out... But potentially dangerous often also means very effective 😄

Spot on.

I’ll check if I can answer those. Bear in mind I’m not a student in his school...

He’s part of a genuine, established tradition

Yes - true, but being able to do magic, you’re not really that special - many hundreds of thousands - even millions of people can do magic. I think it’s easier and far more likely to become a millionaire or a rockstar than to develop any real skill with Qi.

It’s not their fault... Our identities yearn to build and strengthen a sense of self - so we tend to latch on to things we read or conclusions we make from our experience and we dig our heels in as a way of creating a self. Spiritual practice dismantles this sense of self... and as the self dismantles, different aspects of what makes up the self start to arise and these aspects are not the fluffy happy ‘spiritual’ stuff we’re told about in books... But the dismantling process is continuous and even the bluntness gives way to something else eventually. Although indifference seems to be a useful one that sticks around

Any genuine system knows this! Who you think you are - what you think you want - how you think reality works - completely unravels - and not in a pleasant ‘universal love and compassion’ sort of way either.

And I have plenty of criticism... mainly that his system is not for everybody. I don’t even practice his system directly... although the same line. It’s for the dedicated few. It takes a lot of time, is very powerful and not at all relaxing - mostly very uncomfortable. This is how most genuine spiritual cultivation systems are. There are many more health and well-being related qigong systems are much more suited to the majority of people. Spiritual transformation is no joke. It will probably ruin your life the way you have it. It’s probably not how you think it should be. And it’s not a pleasant process. It won’t ‘heal’ you in the way you think it ought to... For me it’s the biggest gift I could wish for. But for many others it’s a nightmare!

😄 - yes What you mentioned above won’t activate the Dantien in the way I’m talking about.

I have to add that although Damo teaches the posture in books and a video - he does not show how to activate the Dantien - which is where things can get a lot more dangerous. I believe this is reserved for in person training with him

Oops! Makes much more sense now

Interesting. I thought the primary posture for Xin Yin is San Ti? This is coming from someone (me) who doesn’t train in Xin Yi though!

yes exactly - great term, it explains the concept perfectly. Yup - it’s not a common one. Most systems use a variation of the above from Lam. I call it ‘the cowboy’ Wuji from Damo’s system is qigong / neigong specific - and specific to the purposes of his system. I wouldn’t take this posture out of the system and I wouldn’t take the system out of the posture! When done in the way that he teaches it - with all the principles correctly applied - I think it is a little too powerful for some people. If they’re very sensitive, have mental disorders or even a tendency for heat or for Qi to rise strongly to the head, it’s too much. I can’t remember if he includes all the principles in his book, I imagine probably not all.

Wuji isn’t the same in every system. The wuji posture is simply the primary posture of the system. Different systems have different primary postures.

I might regret asking this... when you say ‘we’ - you mean you’ve been officially initiated in the school?

No that’s not the only alternative. I spent several years searching for teachers. If you cultivate humility, openness, discernment, sincerity and train hard, you’ll find your teacher. With teachers look for kindness first. Particularly look at how they treat people who’re not high status. To see skill and spiritual advancement - that is harder. I some how developed a sense for it. But I couldn’t tell you how to look for it.

Yeah I’m always interested in why people get into these arts. Mo Pai specifically - I think the initial draw is to be special. As clearly if you became like john Chang you’d be a very special person - people would look up to you, respect you and treat you as a very special person. Most people who get into these arts are wounded in some way, feel some kind of dissatisfaction with life or the way things are or feel alienated. It’s often a wound from childhood. And people look to these arts to help fix them in some way. Maybe you were made to feel small and insignificant and now you want ‘show them’ just how big and significant you are... In my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. If we all had normal happy childhoods we’d probably just be into sports, movies, shopping and drinking. But often as you progress with these arts, your motivations change. I actually have no idea why I’m doing this anymore. I guess I’m curious. I want to see what’s possible. I’d like to develop virtue.

It’s not practical to get into these arts! Nothing about them is practical. They’re not fair. They’re not safe. They’re hard to find. Harder still to discern real practice from the not real. Even harder to practice. They will affect your relationships, take up all your time and money your body will look like a big baby’s body and you probably won’t get anywhere far with them anyway (myself included).

Yes! Exactly Im often asked why I discourage people going down the Daoist path. The simple answer is that in my experience what they think they’ll get out of it is not actually what they’ll get out of it. What they really want they can get from some exercise or martial arts or even dancing! Dancing is so underrated. I think most people would be better off taking dance lessons than Neigong training. In all seriousness! For some people there’s something other than ‘benefits’ or even ‘self actualisation’ drawing them to the Daoist or other spiritual path - those people will get into the arts despite my discouragement

I’m aware of the long history of arguments on the Mo Pai subject - however I avoided reading into it, and have no interest in doing that now. However I think that maybe it’s worth sharing my experiences in these arts - might shed some light to both sides of the argument. The truth is that at the higher levels in these arts - ‘objective’ proofs and validation of one’s skill are both tested and demonstrated. This is normally done very much away from the public eye... If you’ve proven yourself with a school’s ‘outer door’ practice or have shown some level of achievement you might be invited to be initiated into the tradition. There’s often all kinds of ceremonies, empowerments etc that go along with that. Then you’re shown verification of the results of the inner door practice. Sometimes it’s some physiological change in the body... sometimes it’s more ‘paranormal’... usually it’s a combination of all of these at various stages of development. The fact is that ‘reality’ - including physical reality is all an aspect of Mind... and as you go deeper into the inner transformation of Mind, some weird and unusual changes take place - either as ‘abilities’ or side effects. Some abilities you have to work to achieve - some just happen as a byproduct of training. Generally you will be given a method and told to go away to practice it. Then after a period of time you’re tested - and the test isn’t “did you feel Qi moving through your spine”... the test would be a specific physical change in the structure of your spine and the tissues around it. Self evaluation is fraught with delusion - that’s why each lineage will have specific changes that they’re looking for at each stage of practice... at the much later stages these ‘changes’ become pretty supernatural. But 1. If you go to a teacher and demand to see evidence of their skill, you’ll be sorely disappointed. The onus is on you to show that you’re a good student. The reality is that for most high level teachers another student is the last thing they want. They have an over abundance of them already. And teaching is a huge burden. If a teacher is very keen to show their supernatural abilities then something is not right. They’re probably a charlatan - with either real abilities but questionable motives or tricks and questionable motives. 2. Proving anything to anyone is the last thing an advanced teacher wishes to do. It is of no interest to them. It’s like being asked to prove that you can count to a million. The only reason the results of practice are shown after you’ve proved yourself and been accepted into the school - is specifically to create trust - that it’s a genuine practice... and later for the teacher testing you it’s to see that the practice has had the required effect. That is all. Being paid to do tricks is a warning sign. Doing these things in public is a warning sign. Talking openly in public about being able to do these things is a warning sign. 3. As Thelerner says - the best indication of the validity of a school is that there are many senior students that can do what they claim they can. There are many unscrupulous teachers with real abilities - there are many more unscrupulous teachers with fake abilities. 4. You always have a teacher. Your teacher might be a document you downloaded online... it might be a book... it might be a dvd series - or it might be a real teacher. To get anywhere beyond the basics you need to have a real teacher. It’s the way these arts work. There is an exchange that takes place - without it, even if your method is legitimate, it won’t take you beyond the very foundational stages. 5. The main thing to look for in a school and a teacher is virtue. Without virtue you might learn skills but it won’t take you far in the spiritual arts. 6. These arts are hard to master. The people that do well in them tend to be the talented ones that do well in anything they put their mind to. It requires hard work, money, time, favourable life circumstances, favourable karmic circumstances - incredible level of dedication - the ability to bounce back from failure. It requires virtue - humility and the letting go of selfish and ‘self-making’ tendencies. It requires great sacrifice. It is almost impossible. 7. These arts are not only difficult, but they’re also dangerous. It’s like going from not knowing how to ride a bike to having to ride a unicycle along a razor blade for hundreds of miles without falling off. Cancer is certainly a danger in these arts - Yang Qi can quickly latch onto any small bit of stagnation and turn it into uncontrolled growth. 8. Most people that come to such high level teachers thinking that they’re already highly developed and advanced - they simply aren’t. In most cases they’ve not even started to build the foundation. 9. The ‘powers’ are not the point of the practice. The point of being a surgeon is to save people’s lives - not to be skilled in surgery. Getting attached to powers will stop progress. 10. Delusion is rife in these arts. This is one reason that objectively verifiable signs of progress are sought. 11. Teachers will often teach you outer door methods for years before teaching you anything real. More often than not they won’t even teach you anything real. This is to satisfy your thirst for power in the least harmful way possible. Another factor is... you’d call it racism maybe... but really it’s culturalism. Most teachers don’t thing modern people are up to the level of dedication or sacrifice it takes to succeed. 12. If you find it hard to train for 4hrs a day in a fully focused, unwavering way - then the more advanced levels are not for you. You may have all kinds of good reasons - jobs, kids, relationships, low energy, no space to practice, too sensitive, not sensitive enough etc etc - these are all completely understandable, but each one of them would preclude you from being able to reach beyond the beginning to intermediate levels. 13. To become healthy physically and psychologically, to transform some of our habits and tendencies to become emotionally resilient, vibrant and energetic, virtuous and at ease - that’s what most of us really want - and that’s not what these higher levels give you! You can get these benefits from authentic methods without having to dedicate your whole life to these arts. A lot of people claiming to want to develop powers and spiritual advancement actually just want to feel happy, confident and at peace. Ask yourself - what would having abilities like john chang give me that’s even more important than the abilities themselves? There is often a wound we’re looking to heal by feeling special or significant. When you feel like you’re enough, like there’s no inner emptiness or ‘hunger’ for something you can’t put your finger on then usually this craving for the supernatural quickly falls away. What you really need is much more achievable than what you think you want. That’s the good news! The other good news is that achieving this health, comfort, virtue and resilience is actually a prerequisite for doing well at the higher levels! So let’s just aim for becoming better people. Better sons, better friends, better mothers. Put others needs ahead of your own. Create a happy home for you and your family. Find a way of being kind and being strong and being at ease no matter the circumstances. This will have a much greater effect on your spiritual development than some esoteric Dantien compression that you have no business doing at this stage!

Anything effective is potentially dangerous But in this case - looking forward to your training... personally I wouldn’t call that potentially dangerous. From people I’ve talked to that started with wuji - they had the opposite reaction... it makes them hot, uncomfortable, their insides moving, trembling, wanting to stop etc... I suspect you probably have a few corrections that need to be made in your wuji practice - then you’d find it a lot less pleasant And it’s worth bearing in mind - wuji is one part of a pretty substantial system. If you only did wuji - and none of the other elements of the system, then you’re going off-course - which is certainly dangerous long term.

Not upset in the least actually You are right that I haven’t pandered to your self interest - but being rude or offensive was not my objective. My objective was to help you see things from someone else’s perspective - but being offended seems to have gotten in the way of that for you. That really doesn’t bother me - I have have no interest in challenging your views if you’re not interested in having them be challenged. What’s more important to me is that there are others with similar questions to you - silently reading and taking things on board. If this exchange has helped anyone else getting started in these arts, then I’m happy - if not, then a bit of my time has been wasted - but so be it

It’s interesting to me seeing two different perspectives colliding in this thread. What interests me is the attitude and the mental qualities that are built by different traditions and the different approaches to training. I’ve always found that people into magick tend to display an inflated sense of self (this is including myself, when I explored this tradition)... There is a sense of feeling rather smart for seeing behind ‘the veil’ and realising the possibilities open to you... The Daoist mental quality is very different (I’m talking about one developed over years training with a legitimate teacher - not self-directed study, which tends to result in the same attitudes as formed by getting into Magick)... It’s a combination of humility, strength and humour. Humility is the key to getting anywhere in the spiritual traditions (particularly Daoist) - and it’s substantially lacking in most people that want to get into spirituality... When someone says they’re interested in becoming an immortal after they’ve read a book on Daoism - what’s missing is the sense of the enormity of the task... Amazing things are possible - of course. But think of it this way... You've just read a book about the stock market and you decide - “I want to amass more wealth than Warren Buffet!”... (bearing in mind, this guy makes around $35 million a day) “...but I want to do it without any mentor - I only want to work 20hrs a week and I’m only interested in trading gold commodities - coz that sounds cool to me - Now give me advice on how to do it”... How does that sound? Naive? Self entitled? Imagine if someone with experience (and some patience) then suggested “oh you should go and be an intern at a small investment fund, see how they work and take it from there”... ”I’m not interested in being an intern. I already read books. I have friends that have investments - I just want the information on how to get bigger than Warren Buffet - without all stuff that doesn’t interest me.” How does that look? If you were an experienced investor, would you be interested in helping this person out? Earl Grey mentioned how authentic teachers work. The most highly achieved teachers I’ve come across are even harsher than that to be honest... Before discussing anything, you’ll be tested. They might put you in a position and tell you to stand and relax... or they might tell you to sit and quieten your mind... then they’ll leave you there. Most people stop their practice after 30 minutes... some manage an hr or two... I’ve been in this situation - and 5 hrs later, my body in unbelievable pain and a large puddle of my sweat on the ground - I was told to come back the next day for a chat. And this wasn’t passing the test - this was an opportunity to sit the real test Self entitlement precludes you from any real training. Yes some teachers will train you - they’re either just interested in your money or they’re waiting to see if you drop the act before teaching you anything genuine... Consider this as some more advice