freeform

I disagree with this bit. Of course kindness is good. But there is a point where this sort of charity actually flips and creates more harm than good... Like for example Tom’s shoes... when you buy a pair of shoes they send a free pair to poverty stricken countries - this is (or was at least) their major selling point. The unintended consequence was that they put local shoemakers out of business - their lievlihood gone they couldn’t educate or feed their kids and so the spiral of poverty continues. Thats one example. Another was when agricultural “charities” moved in on the country of my birth. They put lots of money into modernising the local agriculture, where they still used techniques that were hundreds of years old. But the consequence was that they got the farmers hooked on fertilisers, special seeds, equipment, herbicides etc. And although the first taster was for free afterwards they had to pay... many people lost their farms and the quality of food went down considerably. (I believe that this was a market creation exercise, but it was sold as charity... but that’s besides the point) Cause and effect can be very complicated and there are many unintended consequences to our actions... these are good reasons for following the guidelines of the ancients - they learned to navigate cause and effect in a very elegant way. That’s why it’s wisdom - not cleverness

But which letter? Kha? Sha? https://www.omniglot.com/writing/tibetan.htm

That was in answer to whether you got somewhere with Nei Dan as practiced solely from the scriptures. Could you share your experience? Maybe you already have?

Thanks that’s a thorough description from a TCM perspective. The channels from a Qi Gong perspective are slightly different. From a taiji and neigong perspective different still. Interestingly the fascia does run through all bodily tissues - including the organs, bones etc. But you’re right the fascia lines are not the meridians, they are the ‘riverbed of Qi’ - subtle but important difference.

Tibetan script I reckon.

Actually, giving money to charity doesn’t really fulfill the two points I mentioned above. It’s easy, enjoyable and the charity will shower praise on you. An anonymous donation comes closer, but it’s still easy and pleasant. I volunteered for a while in a needle exchange and homeless kitchen. Although there was some praise, I also got spat on and almost stabbed. Getting better! A friend once talked someone off a bridge by asking what his kids are going to eat for dinner tonight. But then she told her friends - so not ideal yet again. Its pretty tricky actually! Now regarding how it works - I don’t know. There are cause and effect relationships that change the quality of mind, but I don’t understand the mechanics behind that. Beyond my pay grade Maybe you know from your study of the scriptures?

To set up the correct qualities of Mind for spiritual practice. There’s a shen level mechanic to it. Only really needed for spiritual practice... (cultivating Yuan Shen - not new age ‘spirituality’) Humour, Humility and ‘not taking things seriously’ is suitable for everyone though - particularly the ‘philosophical Daoists’.

The joys of autocorrect!

I think there’s a juicy discussion in this. I got Eva Wong’s translation of the Seven Taoist Masters for Christmas... and the very first pragraph starts with: ”Charitable deeds are not meant to be a public performance. If you display compassion in order to show others your virtue, then your actions are empty of meaning. No matter how much money you give to the poor, if you are doing it to impress others, it is not charity.” This sentiment is often a topic of discussion amongst two of my teachers. In fact one of them goes a little further. Hernia teacher recommends doing selfless service... but to do it in such a way that is: 1) not easy, enjoyable or pleasurable and 2) not to generate any gratitude from anyone (including the recepient of the charitable act). It’s surprisingly hard to do actually. The teacher goes on to say that in fact, for a spiritual aspirant, doing a charitable act without those two points is far worse than doing nothing. This normally raises some eyebrows.

Ah so you’re also Dragon gate. And you managed to get somewhere just practicing from classical writings? I’m impressed - but then again I find the classics quite impenetrable without guidance. Why the anti-teacher stance? Have you been burned by a teacher in the past?

Wonderful! Any specific line? Do/did you have a teacher? I’m sure I have lots more questions but that Christmas turkey won’t brine itself!

Oh you are! Do you teach publicly? What lineage?

Just to clarify - my old teacher is not the one from the video. This episode happened when a small group of us were in the Swiss mountains on retreat, staying in one of our fellow student’s house. I think we were walking back from (or to) some outdoor training. As we were walking and talking (it was just a few of us) one of the newer students who just recently had his Dan Tien activated by the teacher asked how transmission works. In the midst of the discussion he asked if it works on animals and if he could transmit into a cow in a field we were passing and what would be the effect etc. Basically he managed to convince the teacher to do it - the cow was in a random field, not tied up. There was no dramatic preparation - he just transmitted the way he does to us. The cow got down on the ground (not passed out like in that video) then started mooing loudly and shaking and spasming its muscles. It was back up and staring at us by the time we left. This is NOT a high level skill. I’ve witnessed many teachers and students who can do it to some degree. What that video shows is something quite different and if real it’s a little more advanced. I don’t know if it’s fake or not. I know that it’s possible as I’ve seen much much weirder things. Im generally quite sceptical by nature, which might seem weird as I ‘believe in’ Qi and so on. But sceptical is different from cynical. Taoist Texts - I’m wondering, do you train in any of the internal arts? [edit] - just noticed that you posted some links to some Taoist texts (😬) in reply to whether you train or not. So you train in internal alchemy but doubt that Qi can be projected? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Agreed. I’m skeptical by nature, so it took a lot in my case. Which is lucky because many teachers only have imaginary Qi. I’m glad I persevered!

Yeah - that’s if you want to test it ‘scientifically’. But when you’ve been regularly experiencing the effects of Qi transmission it just isn’t necessary for personal, experiential validation. Just like you don’t need love to be proven to know it exists. In this case, however, it was one cow amongst several (unaffected) standing around in a field maybe 20m away, not paying attention to us (although they could see us probably). There was no big movements being made. And the cow’s experience looked to us (the students) very familiar

That video is hypnosis. Qi projection looks and feels quite different. It’s not a high level skill either - way before Nei Dan comes into play. It’s not subtle, it usually feels at least a little unpleasant. It’s different to hypnosis because it has an immediate physiological effect - certain type of Qi transmission feels literally like touching an electric fence, for example. I’ve seen an old teacher of mine project into a cow (who went from calm chewing to laying down on the ground, loudly mooing and spasming and twitching quite intensely).

I can’t, no. My teacher can do a few of those things. Other teachers that I have met can do even more, but they wouldn’t teach me. I don’t practice Nei Dan anyway. I respect the privacy of these teachers (unless they teach publicly) - I had to be formally introduced and ‘tested’ to even meet with them. I assume it’s for a good reason.

There is a lot of delusion in the internal arts. Very few people can actually do real Qi gong (beyond stress relief and health for the frail and elderly) - fewer still can do Nei gong properly... and even fewer can meditate (in the Daoist sense)... and these are all preparatory practices to start Nei Dan. How many people do you think manage to get something going in Nei Dan!? Very very few. The ones that have had some success will demonstrate ‘abilities’ that come as byproducts - whether it’s being able to change weather patterns, affect physical objects at a distance, project various types of Qi, create intense spiritual experiences in students and other even less believable things. Unless someone demonstrates some such ability (it’s built in to most lineages as a method of verification of progress), then there’s no point in discussing Nei Dan beyond the general.

Could you share your view on this? Is it because Nei Dan came later?

To me that sounds like a healthy individual. But it’s important to realise that this is not the crowning achievement of these ancient wisdom traditions. And by thinking that they are, we’re selling ourselves short on what’s possible (yes I’m obviously talking about butcheek diamonds!)

I think that’s the whole point. Its actually pretty rare. There’s a lot of delusion in these arts unfortunately. It becomes quite obvious when you see the difference between a real teacher with real achievement and ones with very little (but with all the adornments). Saying that - practitioners with even very little cultivation are generally much calmer, more centred and at ease than the average modern westerner... But that’s not saying much...

Ok. Could you share your experience then?

Experience

I’m sorry I didn’t read the full thread - but the OP makes an excellent point. I completely agree. But I disagree that Buddhist meditators look any better - in fact in most cases their mind is dull and distant and the energy is sluggish and dissipated. The reason is that most Qi Gong teachers who teach openly in public tend to have completely empty practices - they’re just moving imaginary energy around. And sadly they also believe that they don’t need exercise. So yoga practitioners, who most often also have completely empty forms, at least get regular physical exercise, stretching and so on. Sometimes Qi Gong practitioners will have a generally authentic practice, but they get caught at the first major hurdle - overcoming their base desires - and you’ll find them addicted to cigarettes, alcohol, sex and junk food. Also a common sight. Many like this in China.

Well the formulations were secret or at least some of them - not that I would’ve understood all the odd ingredients anyway. They’re basically used to clear out the energy system in particular ways. The alchemical preparations were particularly interesting. There is a tradition of external alchemy within some esoteric Buddhist lineages in Burma. I met one of these alchemists - his preparation was made using precious metals that were purified, prayed over, transmitted into and then fermented with wild honey, special herbs and wild fruits. This was all sealed in a clay pot and then buried and unburied at specific time intervals for 20 years. Sadly this alchemist died recently. He did have an apprentice, but I don’t know if the tradition was fully transmitted to him. I hope so.