freeform

What may be happening in you is that with some internal training you’ve developed sensitivity to what’s happening inside during a surge of emotion. That’s good. The chicken and egg type question is not particularly useful... of course Qi is involved. Of course Jing is involved. (They’re involved in every aspect of you here on earth). What came first is not particularly important. Emotions happen as a reaction. Stimulus - response. Your stimulus - response mechanism will have certain triggers and patterns of reaction depending on your particular Acquired Mind (genetics, personal history etc)... So you may react in anger to a certain stimulus whereas another person may react in fear. Lust is different. Yes it’s ‘normal’... but if you’re a cultivator, it is one of the major aspects that needs to be overcome. Lust/craving/desire (usually for sex, power/money) is the first difficult hurdle for spiritual cultivators... attachment to emotions is the second hurdle. Tackle the first hurdle first - don’t try to do both.

There is certainly such a thing as storing Qi. In fact at a certain stage it’s a must - or you’ll be frightening the life out of small animals and children after practice! Trouble is that there are so many milestones before that. It is certainly dangerous and counterproductive to try and store Qi before you’re ready. It’s an intermediate level of practice.

Goals are useful unless you fixate on them. As they say - when an airplane is flying to reach its destination (goal) - only for a fraction of the flight time is it actually on course - but it still arrives. Imagine if it had no goal at all though. We tend to mix contexts. Having zero goals is not for us normal humans. When you’re a Sage and you come and go as you please, you can let go of any goals, but at any point before that, goals are a must. It’s just important not to focus on the goal as you’re moving towards it. Have the goal, but focus on the task at hand. Set up a system of daily actions that move you closer to your goal - then just focus on those daily actions.

I’m sorry but you can’t enter into samadhi with emotions - whether positive or negative. Unless of course you have a completely different interpretation of samadhi... like the reverie/trance that’s popular in new age practices.

These texts are written on multiple ‘levels’ - applying to a number of contexts at the same time. (In my opinion it’s what makes them so magical) What a cultivator reads in these and what a ‘householder’ reads will be very different. I agree - in terms of philosophy of life for ‘householders’... or even for ‘self development’ - there are many other philosophies (including ones you mention) that are very good. But Daoism is amazingly wholistic - taking you from land management to the highest levels of spiritual cultivation under a single, all encompassing model of existence. I’ve not come across anything as ‘complete’ in it’s reach. I’m constantly blown away at the depth of wisdom in this tradition.

It’s important to realise that even though we seem to be on the brink of collapse, we’re most certainly living in a golden age!! It’s easy to forget. But not so long ago you would've more likely died from being bludgeoned to death than from eating too much!! Incidentally Daoism is the wisest, most elegant and pragmatic approach to spiritual cultivation I have come across - and I’ve searched far and wide. In terms of spiritual cultivation and philosophy of life Daoism is as ‘rational’ as you’ll get... it’s just that their frame of reference is different to modern people.

I certainly don’t ‘look’ spiritual. And I’m certainly not awakened... I’m very much at the preparatory stage of practice. Yes - this is so important. It’s a huge issue and a big, dangerous pitfall on the path. I discussed this on the Mooji suicide thread. As your energy is amplified all your personal ‘defilement’ is amplified too... that’s why you see so many brash and arrogant internal arts ‘masters’. And sex and power crazed gurus. It’s a really tricky stage because it can consume you without you noticing - and it often happens as aspects of you start to wake up. So often you’ll have a bit of freedom (that students can sense) but a lot of ego. That’s why I’m starting to see the wisdom of the ‘lineage’ system. Where peers at a later stage than you can keep an eye on your progress and nudge you back on course. And most importantly stop you from teaching during the amplified sex and power / inflated base desires stage.

It’s a problem in any tradition - zen is no more prone to it than anything else. The sad sad truth is the spiritual cultivation - the real stuff - is actually pretty rare. It’s just as rare in monasteries as it is in the cities and in the East just as in the West. The most spiritual ‘looking’ types tend to be the ones most mired in their ego while thinking they’re awakened. The bit about discomfort and uncomfortable positions... I’ve got a post brewing on that topic. But just for now... discomfort is just as irrelevant as that thought cloud passing through your mind.

This week I discovered the illusive Cha Qi (tea qi) - was given a very nice aged Pu Erh tea

Do you do any Qi Gong or Nei Gong too?

Some masters I’ve met almost seem like they’re pretending to be human... I’m wondering if it’s because they’ve reached the stage where the emotions are neutral and they kind of have to fake them to communicate with us ‘normal’ folk.

I agree. I kind of like having a ‘personality’ and do enjoy having some emotions - a joke and a laugh, feeling a little nervous or excited - I think I’d miss them when they’re gone. But the teachings are clear and they call for emotional neutrality. Although the virtues that replace them also sound pretty good. I’m certainly not even close to those though

Honestly, I don’t think I could do it justice with my explanation. I’m not a particularly scholarly, theoretical type. The way I discovered what they are is through practice... At one point I started to feel electric shocks on the surface of my skin during a certain phase of practice along with a huge increase in ‘vitality’ - in the sense that I wouldn’t get tired. I was told that I’m starting to build my own Yang Qi. I’ve also had transmissions of Yang Qi from my teachers which feels like a really strong, unpleasant electric shock moving deep in the body and making my muscles jump and spasm (different to spontaneous movement though). Like touching an electric cattle fence (and not letting go for way too long!) Yin Qi - again from specific practices that build it... feels like magnetic waves moving through the body and then beginning to compress under a strong pressure - really quite painful again. This is in the Qi Gong perspective - in Nei Dan it’s slightly different from what I understand. I don’t do alchemy yet. By the sounds of things, Mo Pai is a Nei Dan based school - with perhaps a focus on developing abilities rather than Spirit. Not of interest to me personally. Regarding storage... it’s important at the late-intermediate level of practice. Circulation is important at all times. Bear in mind that I’ve only met a handful of people at the intermediate level of practice as it’s defined in my tradition (that includes most teachers that we all know of). In the beginning the most important part is building the structure of the body and opening up. Next is activating the energetic aspects of the body. Then building the Dan tien - the container... Then you increase the body’s Qi production... and only then you start ‘collecting’ and storing... Then compressing... and so on... Each of these stages can take years of correct practice and there’s obviously many bits I’ve missed - harmonising, balancing, purging etc. Qi as intention in external martial arts practice - yeah that sounds right in that context. Qi can also be everything from action to information to movement to an actual ‘substance’ depending on context. But the contexts don’t cross over... as in it’s not that Qi is action but also a substance. This is why people think it’s such an abstract thing - it’s not. It’s very clear and precise within its own context.

Absolutely agree. But consider the difficulty of firstly achieving these results, let alone testing them scientifically - and in a way that doesn’t kill the poor subject. For example - we’ve had science for a while now... we’ve had human bodies for much longer... yet only very recently we discovered a whole new organ system that we had no idea about (the interstitium). Just because something can be researched and understood in a scientific way doesn’t mean it has or even will... I’ve asked one of my teachers about this... he has quite clear, physical signs of development. For example he has what feels like a physical, solid structure in his belly - he can move it around in his abdominal cavity. He thinks it’s made of connective tissue at the moment. He can project Qi that affects people and animals in a predictable(ish) way. He’s extremely heavy, but not big or muscly - he says it’s because all the spaces in his body have become filled with dense connective tissue. He can move his limbs with almost no muscular engagement... All these things could be tested in some way scientifically. Many students have asked why he won’t go in for scientific testing. He has several very good reasons. 1) Testing him scientificall will prove nothing other than he’s an anomaly. 2) It would attract attention he doesn’t want. 3) It would mean time out of practice. 4) Potentially detrimental effects of biopsies and scans could affect his subtle level of practice.

Firstly what may look like mumbo jumbo from your perspective may be quite ‘logical’ from a perspective who’s fundamental approach and way of thinking is completely different. Theoretical physics is also complete nonsence and mumbo jumbo... until it isn’t. This is the thing I’m recognising more and more. These ideas and concepts of Qi seem so vague and woolly to the western mentality. But the reality is that in their proper context, these terms are very specific and quite black and white. The internal arts are ‘operational’ and pragmatic - they’re more like engineering than science. They’re not trying to discover the truth about something in the same way as science. They’re trying to affect internal change - and the mental models, terms and ideas are designed for that specific purpose - not for the purpose of deducing ‘truth’. The models aren’t Daoism - the internal results are. The idea is not to create ‘beliefs’ or even to ‘understand’, but to communicate a process of internal development. These texts are often like operational instructions. ‘Understanding’ comes when you’ve put the instructions into practice. And this level of understanding is fully embodied - not just mental (but there is certainly a mental component). That’s why when one attempts to communicate these embodied results into words, you just get a string of (often fascinating, sometimes nonsensical) paradoxes. Now - puting these instructions into practice is a difficult, intensive process - this is not ‘ordinary’ stuff - there is a lot of subtlety and countless pitfalls along the path. It is certainly not for everybody. But I believe that if you have an interest in Daoism - even if you don’t wish to undertake the challenge of putting them into practice - it’s worth understanding that that’s how it all works.

Just to bring it down to my current (lowly) level of practice so I understand... I’m assuming you’ve managed fully open you microcosmic orbit... could you share what (physical/physiological) changes you experienced at that level of practice?

Sounds like your Dan Tien was activated I was mentioning in another post the difficulties we (with a western mindset) tend to have with these terms. Yin Qi and Yang Qi are specific terms - very specific. And they are being confused by Yin and Yang as terms of quality. Two fundamentally different things... like ‘sugar’ and ‘sweetness’.

There is another deeply ingrained western philosophical stance that hinders us in the internal arts (and in life too!)... anyone care to guess what that is?

The deeper I get into the Daoist arts the more I recognise just how specific the terms being used are and just how literal some of the things described can be. The issue is that the cultural and philosophical background of the East is very different to that of the West. It can be boiled down to the verb “to be” - or “is”. This is a fundamental thing in the western mind and comes all the way from the faulty logic of Aristotle. So you can say “the grass is green” and everyone would agree. But the reality is that it’s actually very context dependent... would the grass still be green under a red light? Or as seen through colour-blind eyes? This Aristotelian logic is always colouring our way of thinking and is pretty much invisible. That’s why we get so hung up on “what is Qi!?” In the Eastern mind this isn’t so much an issue because in this mentality it’s all about context! The Eastern way of thinking is not hunting for an objective ‘isness’ but it is always hunting for context. I work in design, and have read several research studies on how people perceive images. Using eyetracking they present an image and track what part of the image the observer looks at. Say it’s a photo of a tiger... In the West the tendency is for the focus to be solely on the tiger and particularly its face, in the East the tendency is for the eyes to check the background as much as the tiger itself... is the tiger in a zoo or in a jungle - to an Eastern mind that’s just as important as the tiger itself. So although the western mindset has major issues with the fact that “Qi” means so many different things depending on context... to an eastern mindset that’s just completely natural! Wandelaar - this is another reason why the scientific approach to studying Qi will be very difficult because there is the Qi of feng shui, the Qi of qigong, the Qi of taiji - and they are all completely and fundamentally different. Mind you, we do have this in West too - you might call your wife ‘sugar’ but you (hopefully) won’t try to bake her into a cake. But in the East this contextuality is at the fundamental level of all mental models and ways of thinking - let alone colloquial language.

Rideforever - to be honest I don’t really understand what you’re saying. You seem to be saying: 1- everything is a feeling, including ‘the Tao’ so Daoism must’ve got it wrong 2 - the crowd doesn’t understand what they’re feeling they’re mistaking terror and suffering for excitement. But you’re accessing some deeper truer feeling of excitement? But I could be wrong. Even if I’ve sort of got it, I’m still confused You didn’t seem to answer the question - why Daoism sees feelings and emotions as not only irrelevant, but detrimental at a certain stage.

Well it’s the same for happiness, joy and excitement - it’s said to be bad for the purposes of cultivation. Have you considered why? I mean you you don’t have to agree - most of the world certainly doesn’t! The human race loves feelings and emotions... even some of our best art forms are inspired by feelings... But the Daoists reckon they’re no good. Why?

Have you wondered why in Daoism joy and excitement are considered negative?

Haha - no nothing like that. A good laugh will open the heart, dispel heat and lighten the mood

This. Even if you fake your laugh for a while.

Straying off which path? I think selfless service is obviously part of a number of the great spiritual paths. The masochistic thing - yeah not that bit I think the reason that service shouldn’t be easy and enjoyable is because it has less of a chance to feed your ego. And I think you’re right, if you contrive your service into a masochistic martyrdom then this is bound to feed your ego too. Basic human kindness is for everyone. Being kind should be a given whatever path you’re on. I’m not saying you should start over analysing before you help someone in need...