Apotheose

That’s interesting.

Dear Neirong, I totally understand your point, and I absolutely disagree with everything you said. And I say this with no resentment. Disagreements are actually excellent resources to fight the ego! Seeing that you have an utterly different perception of reality than me does humble myself — that’s because I learn that I could be wrong. Actually, neither do any of us completely know if we are right, and that’s honestly fun. So I’m really grateful for your insights. Just to point out a few things. I don’t mean “Light” in a literal way — I suppose you understood it and just played along with similar allegories. Also, I wouldn’t underestimate the Church’s wickedness — it’s easy to externalize problems and blame demons for them when we can’t fully accept people’s will. Finally, regarding the “Light” thing, I disagree with your statements to the point of thinking that they contradict very basic esoteric postulates: (i) “The more sensible something appears to the human mind, the more dangerous the underlying error can be.”. [this is a bold and dangerous generalization] (ii) “First, you cannot (…) reveal hidden truths simply by flooding a space with light, no matter how intense. Even if the light blinds you, it won’t expose everything. Demons, otherworldly creatures, and countless other entities do not reflect light, rendering them invisible”. [This is just not right from an esoteric standpoint. If you follow a certain religion and really believe this, that’s great. You might be right and I might be wrong, who knows? But, this does sound completely off to me]. Again, my friend, I respect your opinion and I’m thankful for all the information you provided me. All that I know is I know nothing (~Socrates)!!

Agreed, Nungali. I also think that much of demonology is internal and that there is an external factor to it which, paradoxically, isn’t originated from the outside, but, as you brilliantly said, is a externalization of energy. As one of your links states, Plato was very keen on Theurgy — which, at that time, was practiced with the purpose of “accessing” the Divinity through its intermediaries. It wasn’t a DIRECT mystical approach like some “protestant/alchemical/hermetic-based” esoteric systems and circles. Rather, it was done through intermediary “beings”. A great example of this (which is pretty modern) is Martinez de Pasqually’s theurgic system, based on a highly complex hierarchy of Spirits. My personal opinion is that each and every one of those Spirits and Daimons are exactly an externalization of a vibrational state which is consciously OR unconsciously (!) attainable from within (and not originated from outside). That also explains much of Jung’s approaches on “Archetypes”. The Daimonic Reality is very real, in my opinion, and it’s like radio stations. If one tunes into a certain frequency, all he will hear is the correspondent noise of that same frequency. And, by “tuning into a certain Daimon”, one starts operating in that same exact vibrational state of consciousness.

That’s very interesting. It reminds me of the year 2006, where I was obsessed with demonology and also obsessed with the christian concept of “trial”. I remember that, the more I thought that the bad things which were happening to me were inevitable “spiritual trials” or actual demons, the more the situation would get worse — meaning: the harder the “trials” would get and the toughest the demons would turn out to be. After some years of reflecting upon what really happened, I came to the conclusion that I fell prey not to demons or spiritual trials, but to my own habits of thinking. As the mirror principle states: as it is within so is without, and outer events are just a reflection of one’s inner conversation. So, I suppose my life turned into nothing but fighting demons and enduring spiritual trials exactly because my mystical beliefs were almost entirely based on fighting demons and enduring spiritual trials (how ironic!). And that seems to be somewhat related to what you said regarding accountability (as in “it just feels so much easier to say everything is a Demon and try my best. That may not be a good thing”). However, despite my harsh criticism towards demonology (which is notable in my last comments), I don’t claim to be right. I was just expressing my point of view, but I might be wrong about everything I said and everything I say in general. In general, I do think we overestimate our problems to the point of wrongly thinking they are due to purely external factors (like “god send spiritual trials” or demons, for no reason) — when they would be, actually, partially just effects of our own choices. But there might be exceptions… I definitely don’t know all there is out there.

I didn’t fully understand your comment. Is “progressing down the psychic rabbit hole” a good thing or a bad thing?

Jesus in fact lived and suffered human pain at the cross, but that doesn’t exclude the fact that he is an esoteric formula to be followed by humanity. I believe people truly do have free will, and souls like Hitler’s will learn what needs to be learned, and they will change for the better sooner or later, even if it takes thousands and thousands of years — exactly because of karma. However, God’s plan can’t be reduced to cause and effect. There are certain things we can’t explain and might be BEYOND free will. Not that our free will is limited, but because it’s completely and absolutely ineffable and surpasses all cognition. There is no esoteric understanding that can explain or describe God — only its secondary effects.

I recall that basically all my childhood prays used to materialize, because I used to pray with conviction and trust that they would turn real — just as the Bible advocates. I see it all as a manifestation of the inevitable and natural karmic apparatus of Life. Why does praying work? Well… because you asked for it. This is just cause and effect — added to a few other things that don’t matter that much as people think. If you don't ask for things and just leave your future in the hands of the random influence of entropy, be sure that your future will be governed by statistics.

That’s on point. I can see you know what you’re talking about. I’ll prefer to not answer some of your questions like “what exact group or book gave me a bad impression” etc. because I prefer not to expose certain ideologies and traditions, as I respect them even though I’m aware they are nourishing something fundamentally incoherent and derived from fantasy and daydreaming (as a big chunk of modern “mysticism” is). By the way, your comment made me remember the country I’m originally from, which has an incredibly strong presence of UNCALIBRATED esoteric practices which you could easily tell they would completely wreck the wellbeing of any practitioner of the esoteric (novice or experienced). Then, what happens after affiliating themselves with these people? They’ll come to forums like this to get help on psychological dissociation; lack of concentration; and signs os psychosis. That’s something which breaks my heart.

In my opinion, dear Turnip, the esoteric doesn’t operate the same as the scientific method. As Nungali explained, the authentic mystical (and empirical) method does not regard the “absence of Light” higher than the Light. Therefore, focusing on what isn’t the Light implies an automatic contradiction and a lack of coherence. I will ask you the same thing I asked another user of this forum. If you want to illuminate a dark room so that things become visible to you, do you remove the darkness from that room or do you turn on the lights?

That means, sir, you practice under legit traditions and/or organizations. But don’t underestimate the truly schizophrenic tendencies of (as you called) the “Post Victorian Occultists”. There is much nonsense in this field, that’s why I lost faith in a big part of it. The thing is, Nungali, there is a difference between what should be and what is being done out there. I’d say, without a doubt, that the vast majority of banishing rituals overlook the invocation of Light. Naive mystics really do thing that the ultimate resource to “repairing a disturbance” is through removing “demons” instead of doing what really matters: elevating the Light within! I’m on the same page as you regarding what SHOULD be done. And if you are experienced enough to have chosen to practice productive banishing rituals, that’s great and I’m happy to hear that.

Yes, in a religious way — not in a mystical/esoteric way. Simply because they are not equals. Hence the need to be careful not to step into false equivalence. Walking between the two columns does not mean being righteous, protecting widows, helping the homeless nor any other moral nonsense that religion has taught you. It means taking the path which is 0% “good” and 0% “bad” — or, even better, that path which is 0% “correct” and also 0% “incorrect”. Well, if such path is no good and no bad, then what is it…? The funny thing is, the answer is always right in front of our eyes. I only used the term “correct” because of the natural and innate lack of linguistic resources that can accurately explain the esoteric. A good way to summarize all this would be: If you want to illuminate a dark room so that things become visible to you, do you remove its darkness or do you turn on the lights? And, in this same context, is the light “correct” and its absence “incorrect”? Of course not… it’s just how the Law operates. There is no judgment of value in any of this.

Nungali, I’m very familiar with western banishing rituals and I completely lost faith in them… The same way I used to believe in the power of the Exorcist rite (from the Catholic Church) and, after many years, I no longer believe in it. There was something in my comment I believe not a single one of you understood. And I’m not being a religious fundamentalist here, neither am I being biased towards christian dogma. But I am, in fact, talking about christian (!) demonology, so please disregard anything from the East, such as Taoism, Yoga and others. I am talking from an Abrahamic standpoint (!). I believe no one understood what I said about John 1:5. Well, if Light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not comprehend the Light, then darkness isn’t a thing. There is no such thing as “Darkness”, but, rather, there is “absence of Light”. Darkness isn’t a “Being” in and of itself. There is no such thing as REMOVING Darkness or “demons” from someone or something. In reality, what happens is you ATTRACT/INVOKE Light at your presence and at the presence of others and, most importantly, in your Heart. So, in response to your conclusion that “It’s a bit like saying if you are healthy enough you will not catch a cold”… Well… If you don’t have enough Light in you, you will certainly catch a cold and you will certainly be bothered by your “demons”. But you will never catch a cold because some “outsider” took over your “inner conversation” or, worse, your consciousness —that, I believe, is something taken straight out of “Role Playing Games” (very popular in my day) which have criminally been inoculated into mysticism and esotericism. Yes, unfortunately we live in a time —specially after modern british “mystics” such as Crowley— where some allegorical ideas have turned into actual “real” and literal things in esoteric books. And I have nothing against British spiritualists, but some of them were, indeed, somewhat responsible for this huge schizophrenic tendency that western mysticism have been displaying since late 1800’s, which —to make matters worse— is unfortunately still a thing in a certain group where people go very well dressed, if you know what I mean. I have practiced banishing rituals for a long time because I did not understand the true meaning of John 1:5. Remember, there isn’t “Darkness” to be taken out of someone; there is only Light that you can call on, praise and invoke. Every “banishing” ritual which has the premise of increasing one’s Lightness has the potential to be damn good Magic. However, if a banishing ritual only pretends to get rid of maleficent sources of information and energy (“demons”), then it surely contradicts the Holy Bible, because Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot comprehend it (John 1:5). And, personally, I think it would only work when there is either placebo effect involved or when the magus (even if borderline unconsciously) is able to elevate the Light during the ritual. Fact is: fighting nothingness leads to nothingness. Fighting the “absence of Light” cannot lead to somewhere even slightly productive. It’s a tautological and naive way of nourishing a healthy way of life, in my opinion. Then you could ask me: but doesn’t the Catholic Church practice Exorcisms where they solely pretend to get rid of negative energies instead of increasing your level of awareness and Lightness? That’s correct, but does the Catholic Church actually follow the Holy Bible?

Not at all. I meant everything is karma in the end of the day. Many things people believe to be external (uncalled for) forces are actually effects of previous causes. There is never a random “demon”.

I’m into Magic too, and the kind of Magic I practice is that of the Heart. And that leads me to disagree with some of your points like [by Ascetic] (i) “The value of Runes alone on a Demon is often more than what most gain after a lifetime of meditation” and [by Neirong] (ii) “If you cannot resist and protect your energy and mind from external influences, you will inevitably become prey”. Respectfully, believing that external forces can takeover your wellbeing when your have a strong enough inner conversation is a excessively bold idea IMO. I don’t know if any of you are into christian mysticism, but that premise, in and of itself, entirely contradicts the Holy Bible (John 1:5 being maybe the best example of it). Runes are not needed, neither is resisting maleficent external sources of information, if you truly are a source of Light. In general, I see that (christian) practices like Magic and Theurgy come from a very strong premise that “outer” things can never takeover one’s “inner” state if the latter is of Light. Hence the hermeneutical exegesis of “taking the correct path” instead of “avoiding the wrong paths”. No need to occupy yourself with “not doing wrong things” when you could just be “doing the right things”. Of course demonology can be informative to someone who is suffering from anger, depression or anxiety, but first we need to address the compulsory karmic nature of life. There’s no “occasional” anger or depression as well as there’s no “random” demons. For every action there is a proportional educative compensation. So, if one happens to reap what he’d sowed, it will be his own inner atributes that will be responsible for putting him on the right tracks again. In my opinion, the best way to protect yourself from external waves of negative “outsiders” is to cultivate a healthy inner world, which of course is attainable through Magic — and not through the practical or theoretical approaches of demonology.

So, as I’ve been studying christian demonology for a few years now, I still can’t help but to think that it is an absolute waste of time. Reason why I’m planning to quit it for good. Why study demons when you can avoid “them” if you sustain a healthy and balanced way of living life? Of course, you can definitely “encounter” “demons” if you cultivate extreme opinions and identity yourself with strong worldviews, hence the karmic-educational nature of life. But why would an actual mystic —who practices under a legit organization or tradition— would spend his time studying in detail such a negative field which, by the way, actually leads to nowhere? In fact, all demons are representations of something, and the Holy Bible is on point, since there are no random demons. However, isn’t it more productive to improve your spiritual experience through “taking the correct path” instead of “avoiding the wrong paths”? (Obviously) The study of demonology, because of its very nature, tends to be sought after by teens and young adults, which is justified. But why would an adult mystic —who likely knows the allegorical implications of its study— think he would find so much answers in its study? Have they forgotten the meaning of John 1:5? ”And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not”.