ChimpSage

5 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The question of this post is to build Chi, not advancing spiritual practice, or having religious experience.  As far as Chi is concerned, it is no.   Don't forget inner alchemy comes from alchemy, which was a great experimenter of different combination of minerals, plants and animal parts.  It only kills Chi. 

Correct. Cannabis does not build Qi. Based on my understanding the conversion of Jing, Qi, and Shen is just increased. Same with psychedelics.

So, they use up Yuan Qi actually. 
 

Sometimes the benefit can be worth the detriment though  

On 9/29/2023 at 2:14 AM, silent thunder said:

@roamthevoid  It's your path in this life.  Only you can walk it.

 

In my experience, there's one source from which all arises and to which, all returns.   Due too this, I tend toward a fearlessness in exploration of consciousness and energetic exchange.

 

The use of elixirs, pills and a wide variety of intense and sometimes deadly substances is well documented in myriad sects of classical and modern daoism and many other traditions.  The list is nigh on endless.  Entheogenic use is foundational in shamanic processes across all traditions among the origins of our kind for a reason.  So I don't put much stock in the fundamentalist conservative bend of recent times and the over simplification in villifying all plants (or coffee, chocolate and rice).  We have cannibanoid receptors in our brains, this is a fact.  Myriad substances affect and have effect on our awareness.  Nature does not waste anything.  We are in constant relationship with our environment.

 

Yet this does not imply all things are beneficial at all stages in our process.  Only you'll be able to distinguish the effects on your mind and body, but you can benefit greatly from a teacher in an established lineage with a history of prior exploration. 

 

Stranger's opinions on the internet carry no value with me and rigid 'one way' thinking is always an enormous red flag.   Folks who claim one way with absolute certainty are usually selling something, even if it's not monetary but in propping up their authority ego.

 

Far more important to me than the effect of cannabis on my meditations would be access to a lineage and a teacher in whom I could trust.

 

If it were me and I didn't have an in person teacher or much experience, I'd not put much stock in the opinions of folks who habituate online forums (yea this includes me)... I'd keep things very simple and direct my energy toward finding a teacher and then let the questions flow.  In the absence of a teacher, explore as you can and reject whatever does not bring benefit.

 

At the origin of every established lineage, was a human being, exploring his or her own consciousness.  This is our primary birthright and no one can tell you with impunity what can work for you.

 

100% agree.

All drugs are medicine in their correct dosages.

A skillful alchemist knows the difference between poison and medicine.

To remove medicine from the toolkit entirely is a waste imo.

Finding methods from a proven lineage is most important. Ask the teacher. 
 

All good internal methods can be done without the use of any external chemicals, however that does not mean that they do not have a purpose.

I practice Neidan. People will tell you that taking entheogens is a false path that leads nowhere. It’s not true. They can help.

I’ve taken 5 MEO malt for awakening experiences and it actually benefited my practice. So open mindedness is most important when it comes to these things. Depletes Yuan Qi but helps in other ways. And if you can replenish it what does it matter. You just take it smartly in the correct way at the correct time.

People will tell you all sorts of things about drugs thinking that they know their effects 100%, but unless you know it all yourself you can’t close your mind to other possibilities. 

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

I believe that is your understanding and opinion. I will not argue about that. I can only tell what it is, other than what it is not. Peace!

Fair enough! Good talk  

16 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

There is no argument that. 氣海(sea of qi) is just a name of an acupoint. It has happens to be located below the navel. I wouldn't translate the name to make something out of it. The nomenclature 氣海 is just pointing out where the location of the acupoint is. It really has no significant meaning.

PS That applies to all of the nomenclatures. They are just names of the acupoints.

Ah, but in qigong, the lower field is quite frankly a sea of qi. You must build the reservoir and fill it.

I wouldn’t say they are just names of acu points. 
 

I would say the nomenclature points to the purpose of the thing in question. So, each acupoint has a certain label attached to it to give a name to its purpose.

This is the same for all things in the material realm. The label points to the purpose. In other words, the truest name is the truest purpose.

For the Dantian, the true name is elixir field because that points to its purpose.

In qigong or Taichi, the lower field is not used for the Dan, so then we could call it something else.

Sea of Qi/Lower Field/ect depending on its purpose

2 hours ago, Trunk said:

 

I wasn't trying to give advice to others about how to talk,

just shouting out my own working-things-out into the digital universe.

If my viewpt is of use, well that's lucky.  Easily could be not.

 

fwiw, imo, you've made legit & discerning pts.

Good conversation.

I think your words were very useful. I love the way you speak  

I just wanted to give clear definitions. One could argue the lower field could be called sea of qi or other such terms as well.

In the end, they are just labels pointing to something that has a set purpose 

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

what is that?

Fusion of refined Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen.

Infinite engine of perpetual motion.

Spirit of Yang.

1 hour ago, Trunk said:

 

All good points.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's 3 definitions of dantian that "I've heard".

- Ren-6 (or somewhat inward from that).

- The relationship between the navel and the life-gate (between the kidneys) - and other pts and tissues engaged in body - to shift into "embryonic breathing".  It's a deep-deep nourishing physical practice.

 

Both of the above are oriented around health and physicality (even if very deep and esoteric) harmonization, integration, nourishment.

 

- integrating with (what I call) the "deep-center", the small quiet still place, the mysterious pass (where the lower center intersects with the central channel ~ sushumna), to integrate with the One Medicine, Spacious Luminous Awareness, transpersonal awareness, etc.  This is what I think of as the most deeply authentic.

 

(And when I hear people say 'dantian', I am often uncertain about their intended meaning, and I have doubts that they understand what they intend to mean .. and I am curious as to what their actual experience is ..)

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

That's just "what I've heard".  I do not claim to be deeply stable and fluently accomplished in this area.  I have enough experience to see that all 3 of the above are true, but still working on putting it all together with deeper stability and integration.  Can I connect to the One Medicine in my LDT fluently, reliably, (nearly) every time?  Nope.  Same re: embryonic breathing?  Nope.  And so I'm cautious about throwing around simple terms in navigating my own internal practice, that those simple terms mask the complexity of what I'm actually experiencing.

 

There are lots of layers of structure; there's a lot going on.  There's opening the various layers of tissue, there's sinew-changing through the abdominal area, (both of which are long term projects, perpetual even) ... and how that all connects to organs, channels, tissues, the rest of my body.  There's the processing of vitality and digestion.  There's a lot going on.

 

And, so, I am cautious in my own speaking (just for my own level, for myself, and not chastising anyone else for their expression - just slowly working out my own stuff) ... when I talk to myself about my practice ... while I know some taught maps and headed in those directions, and I do have some experience ... my own experience is not "fully baked" and I shy away from classic words that cover a complex territory with a single simple term that maybe I don't fully understand in the first place.  To stay engaged and connected to my actual process, of patiently placing attention (yi) in an area and simply being open, curious, patient, calm, tenacious, smooth integrative.

 

" all writing is a campaign against cliché. Not just clichés of the pen but clichés of the mind and clichés of the heart."

- Martin Amis

 

- Keith

 

p.s.

Often there are several (many, sometimes) interpretations for a Daoist term.  Different legit layers or methods, also misinterpretations.  it's often a mess.  I'd agree that connecting the LDT to the One Medicine is what makes it a *really* authentic dantian, but I'd also say that a lot of the work is to integrate the pieces, the layers - of very physical to very subtle - to integrate, work together harmoniously.

 

*ugh*, yet more ...

imho, any major dantian (or chakra) connects to the One Medicine at it's intersection with the central channel.  And, as that resonance develops, the whole central channel resonates with the Big Light like the filament of a light bulb.

 

All that being said, what is the harm in calling them the lower field, middle field, and upper field?

It is only Dantian when it is used to form elixir. That’s my final thought on it. All the stuff you said can be associated with field rather than Dantian.

And that’s what they are. Energetic fields.

12 hours ago, Trunk said:

 

I think there's a wide range of what each of us understand as 'elixir' and 'dantian'.  Both varying from each other and also varying degrees of/from accuracy... accuracy of actual structure and from various teachings.

 

It's a worthy struggle to:

- understand what the teachings mean

- connect to our own experience in a grounded way, and not letting the terminology disconnect us from the curiosity and engagement  of "what is there?".

Every teacher I've heard speak has struggled to put their practices, and traditional teachings, into common english language that connects.  It's not easy.

 

... more later ...

I suppose, but at the end of the day, there is always a clear and concise definition for every term if you truly understand it.

Dantian is the elixir field. If the field is not used to build the elixir, it’s not a dantian.

Now, you can keep calling it that if you wish, but it is incorrect to do so. Doesn’t matter to me what other teachers or students do. Accuracy is what is important.

Are you using the field to generate the elixir? No? Then why call it Dantian? It is just a field. 
 

Being okay with inaccuracies without ever correcting them is how we lose the art

On 11/19/2023 at 4:41 PM, Apech said:

I think both the DDJ and Chuang Tzu are helpful to read but I am unsure that they are really the core texts that we are led to believe.  Although there is some dispute aas to whether it is Daoist at all I think that understanding the changes (Yi Jing/I Ching) is the most important step in getting close to what the Dao is all about.

 

Perhaps I should have put this in Unpopular Opinions?

 

 

This is correct. Understanding complete truth of Yi Jing would be a complete understanding of Dao.

Daoism is the mountain towards infinite light and infinite virtue. It cannot be realized without practice.

The practices are the different paths up the mountain labeled under different names.

Hindu practices, Buddhist practices, Daoist practices, ect.

Each path up has its own unique pros and cons. Some paths only lead you up a certain distance and eventually glass ceiling.

What many people believe to be Daoism is not. Daoism is not a religion. Nor is it truly the path of Neidan. It is the mountain itself.

Only by taking a pathway up it can you truly know it.

Buddhists can be Daoists. Hindus can be Daoists. Ect. ect. It is a label for the labelless.

On 10/22/2023 at 10:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Let's have a fun debate!

 

If you were to discover how to cultivate just like the wuxia novels with flying sword and immortality, would you tell or teach the world or keep it a secret?

What would be the cons and pros of telling or teaching everyone immortal cultivation?

What would happen if you keep it a secret, yet keep experimenting with plants and livestock to make them "spiritual/divine"?

 

*Think of things like; the cons and pros of growing spiritual herbs and fruit, could lead to deadly byproducts for mortals, but not for cultivators and such*

 

- A sleepy but curious Bluejay.

I’d give everyone the information it was possible but restrict the methods to those who are truly worthy.

The heart must be tested. 

On 12/21/2023 at 8:16 PM, zoe said:

Very sorry if I'm repeating myself with what I was saying in my literature recommendation requesting thread but- I've become a bit confused on how Taoism can even address the topic of art- more specifically, artistic motivation. I've found myself in a fairly extreme lapse of creative motivation in general since the start of seasonal depression (first winter in a place that actually experiences winter) and in trying to turn to Daoism for assistance in this I can't help but realize that I pursue artistry because I have a desire to create art. In retrospect- for a very long time that desire had been to have art of my own creation, as opposed to the distinct act of creation which does not reason as a perspective well aligned with the Tao. I don't really see that as my main motive right now but who am I to say? Regardless, I feel affected by that having been my motive for some time at the very least, and maybe my lack of that desire now means there's just nothing and is why things are like this.

tl;dr though, if desire is poisonous then what besides desire should I rely on to drive me to create things? If not desire then what else is there? To create at all it feels as though it can only be reasoned that it was done because of desire, I presume that a large part of the problem with my creative work is that I am having trouble conceiving any reason to pursue it other than things which I could describe as desire. As something that seems like such a core tenant of Daoism, it admittedly seems like the shunning of desire is something I have a really poor understanding of, so I'd appreciate any clarification.

Well, to answer your question, we must ask if Daoism truly shuns the desire to create.

I would argue that Daoists have the greatest desire to create.

Where does everything come from? 
 

The creator.

Why did he create in the first place?

What was the desire? What was the purpose?

Infinite light and infinite love. Infinite Yang.

The greatest art is conceived when we realize the purpose for its creation.  
 

Once we have the purpose, we must have the desire to make it a reality using free will. 
 

In other words, find the purpose for the art rather than the desire.
 

This is the key to your art  

On 12/14/2023 at 12:03 PM, Sahaja said:

How did the concepts of reincarnation and karma become so important and widespread among people when seemingly so few people remember and feel accountable for behaviors in past lives?

 

How did belief in the importance of ending the cycle of birth and rebirth become so widespread among people when seemingly so few achieve enlightenment (are successful) and most people seemingly want continuance of life (regardless that it might entail some suffering)? 
 

I am trying to improve my understanding of how these views became widespread among people from a behavioral or practical perspective. Not from a belief or authority perspective. 
 

note I use the word seemingly to reflect that this is my life experience with people’s behaviors that may be different from others. 

It’s quite easy to explain actually. 
 

They are answers that come from within.

From soul and spirit.

From the creator.

1 hour ago, Eduardo said:

 

You have a mental salad of concepts and I don't have the time or the desire to try to clarify these entanglements.

 

I can only tell you that the technique of creating the rainbow body is an esoteric technique and related to Tibetan Buddhism and Bön, that is, hundreds of years after the parinirvana of Gautama Buddha.

 

Buddha did not seek a Taoist-style form of inmortality or a rainbow body, human or celestial immortality since it is not the goal of the noble eightfold path that leads to nirvana.

 

Nirvana is existence outside of Samsara and therefore implies an irrevocable disconnection from the phenomenal planes of existence.

 

I also tell you that the Buddha suffered from illnesses and there is talk of a doctor of that time Jivaka Kumar Bhaccha, however in the Pali Canon it is noted that Buddha Gautama died from eating bad food that was donated to him by a blacksmith.

 

Are you confident that your definition of Nirvana is different than getting to the Immortal realms/Heavenly realms?

In my understanding, the heavenly realms can only be accessed when you fully escape samsara. So, you would no longer be required to be reborn. But, you could still enter any realm.

Why would you seek cessation over infinite spreading of light?

In my view, there is no higher path than the infinite spreading of light. So I’m curious what your view is.

You are just giving me timelines that could very well be false.

In my view, rainbow body existed far before the one known as Buddha.

In the vast cosmos, how could you possibly think rainbow body didn’t exist until a human on earth achieved it?

When I read your message, all I get it is a tone of arrogance, a ton of delusion, along with a closed mind.

You have far to go

Maybe try explaining to me why you believe Buddha sought cessation and what you believe the ultimate goal of the eightfold path is.

Is it different than the end goal of the Daoist practices?

How so? What is nirvana? What does escape from samsara signify? Answer these and maybe I can give you some guidance  

19 minutes ago, Eduardo said:

 

I cannot give you a categorical answer because I do not have access to all of your personal beliefs regarding what taoism is or is not.

 

I can only tell you that it is very easy to pretend to understand with certainty immortality in Taoism, and the exit from Samsara, right off the bat, keeping in mind that illness, old age and death are the vital imponderables that we must experience and which not even Gautama Buddha could transcend despite his enlightenment

 

It is very easy to fall into self-deception regarding our own worth, which is nothing more than another form of egoistic illusion that is another shackle in the mind that binds to samsara.

 

How do you know that Buddha did not transcend death?

One’s body can ‘die’ while one’s spirit lives on eternally

Rainbow body

I would define Daoism as the path towards embodying divinity and becoming infinite light and virtue.

If it’s not aimed at the very end goal of this, it’s not Daoism but a cheap imitation of it.

So, in this view, the Buddha was a Daoist even though he wasn’t labeled as such.

Now, different traditions all have their differences in technique and method.

Daoist tradition focuses far more on longevity and elixir which has its pros and cons.

Easy to get stuck at this level.

12 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Forgive my ignorance as I don't really understand a lot about Daoism, but is escaping Samsara part of it?

For sure. Nothing to forgive. Ignorance is normal.

Yes, we escape samsara but we are able to enter and exit every realm at will. 
 

The goal is not to escape.

The goal is to spread infinite light.

This is Spiritual Immortal level. Shen Xian

4 minutes ago, Eduardo said:

 

Very few people seek immortality in Taoism

 

The majority seek to make their personal lives and achieve economic achievements, including building families and satisfying their multiple desires.

 

And many people are just looking for food and also to survive deterioration and illness.

 

Desire and the subsequent search for satisfaction always brings suffering and disappointment.

 

The long-suffering human path finally leads to the experiential understanding of Buddha Dharma.

 

I hope your understanding flourishes above all human illusion.

I mean I suppose it depends on your definition of Daoism.

To me, it is not Daoism if it is not about immortality or freedom from samsara. 
 

That would just be using the philosophical principles of Dao to improve your life.

A basic understanding of Dao along with correct diet according to TCM and living in harmony with nature wouldn’t be considered Daoism to me. That’s just the standard way of living of humans

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Maybe so because very little of that book makes sense to me. 

Exactly why I think it is overrated  

No one can understand it so what’s the point. A true master can outline it clearly and simply with 0 room for misinterpretation 

1 minute ago, NaturaNaturans said:

What is an immortal in this setting?

Elixir. Di Xian

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Really? Let’s ask someone who actually knows about the DDJ  @ChiDragon

 

 

You can become an immortal without ever taking a glance at the DDJ IMO

It’s just a key that goes along with practice. Without legit practice, you can’t understand DDJ fully

16 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

The DDJ is rooted in the yinyang concept, so dual. It prioritises yin, not yang (Ch 28: know the male, stick to the female).

 

 

This is why DDJ is overrated. This is a misinterpretation. The goal of alchemy is to shed all Yin. 
 

Most DDJ quotes are meant to be applied to stages of alchemy. They are only so good as the people reading them.
 

We shed vice, darkness, and delusion in favor of their Yang opposites.

We become spirit of pure Yang and cultivate Yang body. Infinite Yang with no yin. Infinite light. Infinite virtue. All positive with no negative.

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

 

@Taoist Texts aren’t they?

 

 

Like I said, they are not Dantian so by definition they cannot.

Yuan Qi(Ming) and Yuan Shen(Xing) fuse in the Dantian to form elixir. This can only take place in the lower field

54 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Hmmm… i have no clue, but i was under the impression that it was about embracing or at least accepting the… realities of life, and not binary in its approach? ☯️

It’s about reversing the course and becoming pure Yang rather than stuck in duality 

13 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Or, by another name, the "yellow sprouts court." 

 

What's the dantien for?  It's like any other potential that you can develop and use for whatever you're aiming to accomplish.  In this sense it's no different from the ability to acquire language, to read and write, to ride a bicycle, to juggle a dozen tennis balls, to form an emotional relationship with a human or animal or even a device. (Song in the background: "I'm In Love With My Car.")  You are born with the potential; you may learn to use this potential spontaneously upon exposure to whatever tools help it actualize, or (more often) via a particular set of practices that develop it.  

 

What do we develop the dantien for?  It's like asking what our writing ability is for.  Once you got it, how you refine and use it is your choice.  Become Shakespeare or get into arguments with strangers online.  Or both.   

In my opinion, the only true Dantian is the one used to create the elixir.

The middle and upper dantians really shouldn’t be called Dantians because they aren’t used to create the elixir.

But, in the end it’s all just terminology. Easier for people to understand lower, middle, and upper Dantian instead of only one Dantian. It’s terminology that has been simplified to help people understand better.

Likewise, the Dantian of qigong and Neigong is not really the true Dantian if it’s not being used for alchemy. It’s a false Dantian that is being labeled as something that it is not.

Better terminology would be lower field, middle field, and upper field. In other words, energy fields located in different locations that can be used for different purposes.

Elixir field is the only field that is used to combine the ingredients necessary for elixir. So it is called the Dantian.

Just my opinion  

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

What was it like?

Great! Can’t speak on the methods but I basically learned a complete system for the elixir and beyond. 
 

Now, the problem was that the teacher wasn’t very inspiring. And you should only really be a student of a teacher if you respect the qualities their practice has given them and feel that they embody what you would like to embody. 
 

So I separated myself from the teacher but still practice the methods

If I come across methods or a teacher that seems better suited for me, I will go learn under them. Until then, I am solo training.

Methods are Daoist alchemical methods, but I don’t really label myself as a Daoist in particular. I’m just taking the pathway of Daoist Neidan up the mountain towards embodying divinity.

If I feel that discarding the Daoist methods is what I should do, I will do that in favor of Hindu or Buddhist methods.

To me, a Daoist is someone who takes a pathway up the mountain towards God and embodies infinite light and virtue. So, whether you call yourself a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Daoist, ect, doesn’t really matter.

I would say I’m just a cultivator or ascendant.

Di Xian - Earth immortal. It is simply the attainment of the elixir. Human spirit becomes spirit of Yang. Can be deluded. Still have flaws. If you behave badly, Dao will kill you.

You seek out of sense of self preservation rather than selflessness.

Therefore, you will never find the true path. Or, if you do, you will die and end up lower than where you began.

One must become fully selfless to gain true immortality.