Sahaja

Perhaps there are redeeming characteristics of religions when practiced at the  individual level  but unfortunately when people collectively create religious organizational beliefs and structure  it at some point brings out the worst in us collectively. I used to think the Eastern religions were better than the Abrahamic religions in this regard but recent history in Asia has shown me that there may be something more systematic at work intrinsic to organized religion in general. Perhaps it’s nationalism disguised as religion(or vice versa), or maybe it’s more a fundamental flaw in us that gets magnified when we act collectively rationalizing self serving behaviors on beliefs beyond ourselves. 
 

sorry if I sound a bit negative but just read an article about the popes executioner that didn’t sit well with me.  

If I recall correctly there is an action that should be taken if the wrong image is seen in the mirror. seeing images in a mirror that you didn’t intend  to see seems a bit spooky to me. Forewarned is forearmed. 

14 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I'm honestly not sure which version I do. 

 

I do not do mudras.

Do you do the mirror practice with it? 

I think it would be more accurate and interesting to identify sentences briefly describing the practices and tools used under each term to allow people to identify for themselves where there may be similarities.  In trying to reduce it to a one word equivalence it loses a lot/gets oversimplified and in some cases there is more not in common than in common in the practices equated.    (e.g. pranayama and qi gong). 
 

On 5/5/2024 at 9:20 AM, Trunk said:

“… just when I thought I’d stop talking, … pulls me back in”

 

adding Kwan Yin Mag.Qigong back …  

 

 

 

 

Left brain, right brain, whole brain…the whole brain is the right brain…not sure if that’s a double meaning for “right” but regardless - it’s cool stuff! 

On 4/24/2024 at 6:48 PM, Maddie said:

My original interest at the beginning of my journey was Qigong which led to an interest in Taoism. Although I found Taoism confusing and I had a hard time getting explanations to my questions so I eventually turned to Buddhism. As most people know Buddhism emphasizes the mind. It cultivates the mind through the mind primarily. 

 If I understand correct there is an aspect of Taoism that accesses the mind through the body? Lately I find this concept interesting and would like to know more about this and how it works.

One way of looking at this is that qi is the fluid of the mind that connects the mind with the body.  So I would say the work you do is an acupuncturist is working on the body to influence the mind in the sense of the mind’s involvement in using qi (its fluid) to regulate processes in the body.. 

My understanding of some Daoist approaches is that you are really working both simultaneously. Listening (ting - attention or mental presence without the intellect) and sung (relaxation - release of physical and mental contractions) involve both the mind and the body. In the early stages of qi gong it’s about learning to connect with the qi through listening/attention to use it deep inside to create physical bodily changes (“tendon changing”). These physical changes later enable changes in the mind to arise (part of “marrow washing”). 
 

Ultimately development of attention(ting) skills to a very high level (and related mindbody changes) allow you to move beyond identification with the limited self and things talked about like samadhi, sympathetic joy (joy without a cause) naturally  arise. Initially on this path you develop mental focus to stabilize awareness then you dial back the intention inherent in mental focus to bring you toward purer attention (purer means not goal directed, not full of discursive thought- just listening, just receiving without adding thoughts). Once you have this skill at a very basic level you can connect directly with the qi in your body to affect and effect change (e.g. form Dan tian, etc.) These bodily changes in turn change the mind and back again in an iterative supportive fashion. Working with the qi to change the body has the added benefit of having a physical manifestation that can be seen and felt (by yourself and others) to help avoid potential for delusion of mind based approaches that don’t early on have such an observable manifestation in our shared physical reality.
 

It’s my understanding that each of these separate paths (mind path, body path) has a different outcome with different characteristics, though if truly done correctly the achievement of one ultimately achieves the other so both fruits are obtained. However, done incorrectly or partially can result in errors like delusion/depression (stuck in the void) or energy sickness (mania).  The Daoist approaches I am familiar with are based on the view that the mind and body are not two separate things but  one made up of many layers (very similar to other Eastern traditions)  What you do at one level or layer affects all the other layers.  Philosophically wu wei (non governance, lack of intention) and Yin Yang, (balancing between the two aspects of cultivation) are integral to this path. 

 

48 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

You do not see the connection but your serious health issue is caused by this kind of groundless fantasizing. It is not too late to refrain from these fantasies, then you will get well.

Here is my reference to help you:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40543-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy-20/?do=findComment&comment=676097

Please get well soon.

Yes @silent thunder it is my shtick,  you are right.  if you interested let me know, we can have a thoughtful discussion on  whether these entrepreneurs  are the real McCoy. If not, please consider that them, their ilk, and their marketing, have directly  whipped this young man's illness  (and the deviations of many others like him).

 

 

Thanks. I kind of wondered why I don’t experience heat from this stuff. 

8 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

It is more of a problem of dishonest claims they make during teaching to sell/push their info-business product to the masses. Even worse, they get knowledge from public books/sources and resell it as if their name has copyright on the tradition itself.

 

If people would sell Qigong classes casually for what it is. But, no they have to add that energy cures cancer/all kinds of diseases and grants enlightenment and immortality.

 

It is the same as saying that burnt paper is extremely valuable resource because it is literally same as diamond. Indeed, same carbon material, but not nearly the same quality.

 

I mean seriously, there are people around who think that simple body moves and simple qigong can turn you into an immortal, enlightened being and cure all ailments. Fragrant qigong? How much more delusional can it get?

 

Self-development is not in the same dimension as annunaki, homeopathy, astrology, flat earth, and ctulhu. People who believe any of that stuff are pretty much hopeless cases to teach.

 

How exactly would elixir make you immortal?

@Taoist Texts what kind of immortality do you expect from "internal alchemy" practices?

A part of it is your body producing the immortal medicine. However, it’s not really at the level of a practice. My understanding is it’s  more of an outcome to transformations that change how practices work and who you are. It does have a physical component to it related to the bodies  organ systems. I would say it’s not only part of certain alchemy lineages but is also referenced in certain old tantric yoga systems as well. 
 

we tend to approach things simply as practices as that’s the way the intellect works. However it’s much more subtle and  nuanced than that and way more difficult or so I’m told. Not something that arises from a few practices or reading a few books.  Probably requires substantial time in retreat from society, changes to the acquired mind and some feedback from others further along the path. 
 

I sometimes wonder if people really think through what it means to go beyond the acquired mind, if they really want to go through that much change to who they think they are. Though I don’t think you need to find a Taoist  immortal to learn about it just as you don’t need access to a Buddha to learn about Buddhist cultivation methods or a Yogic immortal to learn about yogic methods. Though I imagine it might help, haha. 

On 4/19/2024 at 11:57 AM, Taoist Texts said:

of course you did , and you were. Thank you very much. Who can forget the curious case of the travelling liver? Not me.

or this. Or the senior citizen who on this forum claimed to deflect a hurricane with magic. If an eyewitness says it happened then it happened. No argument there, i am totally convinced that it did happen for you good folk. Unfortuntely, it did not not happen in my reality which is my loss;)

 

Going back to the OP, what WLP and Brine purport to teach is immortality (neidan in western parlance) . Its a weird way to make a living but hey, not the weirdest one. Now when a teacher teaches immortality, is either he is  an immortal already - then he knows what he teaches. Or he is not immortal yet - then he is  a fraud. And being immortal or not starts from having a little thing called neidan, or the elixir. So per the OP whoever is interested in Brine  just gotta ask him: "Sifu with all due respect, you teach neidan, so....do you have the neidan? " Then watch the shuffle dance begin.

Only a Xian can teach ? Wow, thats quite a steep hurdle. 

Does this mean  only winners of  Wimbledon can teach one anything about tennis? The tennis lessons must be quite expensive. 

On 4/13/2024 at 11:38 PM, Nungali said:

I could not find the map on line  I was thinking of, it is in a book I have .  But I found this ;

 

 

 

https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/

 

 

About 18 years ago visited a  temple in rural Myanmar with my family that had ceremonies led by what appeared to us as transgender “priest/priestess” mediums.  Dance and music were a big part of the ceremony. The local people attending (the vast majority in attendance) appeared to treat the mediums with a great deal of seriousness and respect.  In our personal interactions with the mediums they were very open, light hearted/quick to laugh,  and were kind to us offering to pray for our daughters’ then upcoming school exams. 

to work with opening the ren, one may want to explore releasing/relaxing tension from the Tian Tu point in the upper chest as I understand this is a common sticking or blocking point for many people.  This relates to the instruction “sinking the chest” which per my understanding means releasing/relaxing of tension vertically down inside the body from that point. 

Curious whether there is any impact or change  at the chromosomal level to transition. - xx to xy or xy to xx. I realize there is a small percentage of the population don’t fit into these general  chromosomal categories. 

I think an important part of it is moving from intention (conscious, subconscious  and unconscious) to pure attention (without desires, goals, discursive thought) to states beyond this. There are conditions and methods that facilitate this. Imagination is a form of intention or discursive thought so it’s not a tool for this practice in my understanding.
 

While there is likely similarity between apothetic methods across traditions as many deal with moving beyond the acquired mind to a unitive state, I think it’s better to keep them separate in application  so one doesn’t miss important nuances unique to each tradition. 

On 4/1/2024 at 1:52 AM, Apech said:

Bump

 

Anyone can supply good resources for sitting and forgetting practice????

 

please!

I enjoy reading the academic works on Daoist apophetic methods such as by Harold Roth, Stephen Eskildsen , Louis Komjecky and others.  I would say that my view is somewhat different on the translations of the Chinese terms into the English terms  like “breath” and “visualization”. Visualization (cun or cunxiang) maybe alternatively translated as paying attention to and see what actually arises as opposed to imagining something. This translation is more in alignment with the Daoist concept of wu wei or non doing particularly in the context of sitting and forgetting.  Qi is not just the breath in my understanding, it is much more. 

Maybe some wood qi gong would help with moderating excessive judgement. The five elements model of cultivation includes the path of balancing the emotions (at the initial level).
 

there is a difference between our natural tendency to categorize things and the ego driven need to compare. It’s important to understand the difference. Both arise from being a  limited self, but the first is useful for our survival as a physical entity the latter is more about the reinforcement/survival of the ego. 

Perhaps the probability of attaining enlightenment is near zero when we have an intent to achieve it. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we don’t have something/someone outside of ourselves pointing out when our intent to achieve it arises. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we don’t have a useful method to help us reach our potential. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we believe the chosen method and  helper is more important than the qualities inherent in the first statement. 

as much as it can be depressing to see so many people searching and not finding, the existence of the energy driving this search to me is quite a hopeful sign as it seems stronger and more resilient than both logic and intent. 

On 3/18/2024 at 1:12 PM, tao stillness said:

what is Zi fa gong?

It can also be translated as skill from the self.  Meaning it’s something from inside that’s not at the conscious level. It’s usually associated with active or yang qi getting freed up in a practice like releasing tension that hits a blockage in one’s body which results in involuntary movements, involuntary speech or sounds, shaking, involuntary prostrations etc. it can be innocuous or it can be quite dramatic but it’s really only the body opening up under the influence of active qi. Some “masters” get this initiated in their students and describe it as something magical or demonic taking advantage of its unusual involuntary nature to influence students to follow them  However in more serious lineages they treat it as more mundane, more like passing gas, that the teacher politely ignores.  If you are doing qi gong  with the mind absorbed deeply inside there is a good chance something like this will arise. Sometimes it can be triggered by something very simple, like a doing a hand mudra.  It’s just a phase that will pass so it’s best to let it do its thing (open you up more) and not to get too attached to it. Of course there is always a next phase, lol. 

My understanding of texts is they describe what had arisen at the end state, not the process to get there which comes from the teacher and from direct experience. The process is not binary and starts by charting out the route and is filled differently(yang qi, yin qi, light, the Dan etc.) at different stages of the process. Even at the earliest stages this is an unimposed non manufactured process that is quite strong somatically but effort is necessary to put the conditions where it can arise in place.Ultimately it even goes outside the physical body interacting with the yin fields around you. Actually  I should not say ultimately, as I don’t really know how many levels there are (the “10, 000” levels back to the one maybe the way to describe it)

The most important point is that it is a spiritual process anchored in a physical process based on moving beyond/releasing these contractions and colorings of the acquired bodymind. (Very analogous to yoga and Buddhist cultivation methods )The “doing” are these contractions and colorings of the bodymind - non doing or non governance is moving away from these intentions/contractions to pure attention uncolored by the acquired mind and then beyond this. When the tai chi masters talk about song and ting they are describing using these tools in a more prosaic way but in many ways it seems quite similar.  Even at a beginners level one can feel the qi strongly respond to the “releasing” of both physical and mental contractions if one is  “listening’”. 
 

When authors take an end state and reverse engineer it into a process to follow based on imagination or visualization of the end state, they are just encouraging more contraction of the mind and actually impeding the process as they are directing the use of  energies toward more doing rather than the un doing  of these physical and mental contractions which is the effort required. It may sound contradictory but letting go of the contractions takes work particularly when the ego and the physical body don’t  want you to release the contractions. The ego in many ways defines itself through these contractions. It probably feels quite threatened when stuff arises it’s not directly controlling!
 

i enjoy reading the texts and appreciate the work of philologists, academics  and translators. When I read things  like “supreme yin” in the really old texts  I can see the connection to very important aspects of the process and it’s helpful to see that. I am grateful for the light they shed and they are doing something I clearly don’t have the skills for. They have done much good work that should be acknowledged. However I think errors can be made when outcomes are conflated with processes.

ok Taoist texts - have at me! Perhaps it will help me release my own contractions to get some humility. I undoubtedly have a lot more to learn.  (Only 10,000 more levels to go)

My understanding is that it arises  when the correct  conditions are in place. When it starts  moving  it’s pretty clear what is going on and that you are not directly governing it with your intention at that point. 

I see in my FB feed that  Max is teaching “kunlun” again - this week in San Jose. These days it seems like most any qi gong can produce zi fa gong. 

My understanding is similar to silent thunders. The subtle anatomy and associated practices of alchemy has some marked differences from TCM though there are similarities. While I haven’t ingested alchemical herbs  I know people who have and their effects can be quite strong. I guess it’s analogous to qi gong. You can practice qi gong at the level of health (more like TCM) or you can use qi gong to change the body(s) to support a spiritual practice. The latter is a lot more intense(much more than just waving your hands around). In terms of channels, some of the names might be similar (like the du) but size might dramatically change (become the width of your back or more) in alchemical applications of practice. I’ve found TCM herbs helpful from a medical perspective in my martial arts practices but my understanding is that it’s not the same thing. Because of common use of terms (and propensity for secrecy) a lot of confusion is created between TCM and alchemical/spiritual based approaches. 

My first wife was born in the year of the green dragon. Our marriage was a bit of a disaster but like the dragon she regenerated and made a career out of the disaster(wrote her autobiography,  TV shows,  Oprah, etc.). Kind of a rough ride for me at the time but now just ironic and humorous looking at it from a distance through the rear view mirror. Perhaps the point here is that as we face the dragon this year knowing that time will help put its challenges into perspective changing them into lessons ( that might even make us laugh at some point!).

My understanding is when one has moved from intentional based thought into absorption in awareness, dreams stop. Dreams are another version of intentional  thought based in the acquired mind/limited self, albeit  at the subconscious or unconscious  levels of intention.
 

On 12/13/2023 at 12:12 PM, Sanity Check said:

As far as I know, qi development follows a course where sensory perception increases proportionally to the amount of qi a person generates and amasses.

 

Having more qi increases sensitivity. The way that having a larger satellite dish makes it easier to detect signals from space.

 

There could be a good analogy for this in the moon and tides as observed by science.

 

Oceans have tides, influenced by the orbit of the moon.

 

In some cases the difference in low tide and high tide can be 12 to 20 feet difference.

 

While lakes, rivers, ponds and smaller bodies of water are not perceivably influenced by the moon's gravitational forces.

 

Could be an interesting train of thought for those who enjoy deducing puzzles present in nature.

 

While more qi does enable many things, I think a very important element isthe ability to soak the awareness into the body which enables one to both perceive and use qi more accurately  as well as make more qi.  I remember when I was young studying martial arts there was a lot of qi generated but my ability to internally connect with it and direct it was quite limited, more of an external application. Now more recently my practices have opened up the internal world much more through absorption of the awareness in the body (and applying the Yi Jin Jing principles) I think Freeform used to refer to the power of the absorption of awareness into the body in some of his posts and it certainly has been my experience. I think this changes one’s practice whether one is doing qi gong or martial arts or yoga. Perhaps someday this will evolve from absorption of awareness in the body to the body absorbed into awareness - this is where the game changes dramatically or so I’m told and takes one beyond regular qi to original qi.  My understanding is that this requires releasing all intention, conscious or otherwise. Not an easy thing to do. 

I am not a scientist but I believe tides are a function of the size of the body of water. Lakes don’t have meaningful tides because they are too small to notice the effect - I think the biggest lakes (e.g. Great Lakes)  have measurable ones but they are only a couple of centimeters and are dwarfed when compared with effects of the wind. 
 

In both the Nath lineage of yoga and some Daoist internal arts there are charts showing the relationship between the phases of the moon and energy in the body. Interesting both have a relationship between the top of the head and full moon. Direction of the energy movement from point to point  during waxing and waning and many of the points are in common. Naths utilize this knowledge in their yoga practice.  There are also some practices that utilize this knowledge in Daoist internal arts (e.g. full moon practice).