Sahaja

There is a very large selection of documents on cultivation practices (qigong, neigong, neidan, magic, martial arts & yoga) in a Facebook group called the Arcanum Library that is administered by Jeff McDuffie. I think some here might find this FB site/group of interest.

On 6/2/2025 at 4:35 PM, Krenx said:

 

Yup. I think you have to be there in person, and have practiced for awhile to be able to judge. And I can say out of the 6 people who had aggressive spontaneous movements, 3 of them clinged to that spontaneous experience. Enjoyed it, relish in it. Vocally mumbling things like "love, yes, yes, love love". Did not want it to end, do not plan to end it. Have no control over it, has not plan to manage it. Almost knocking other attendees over from their movements and rolling around, when most of them just wanted some silence to experience the subtle conditions of the exercise. 

 

There is a blindness to the setting of the workshop that was really alarming. Alarmed Damo as well. He understood what was happening, and he had to try restraining them eventually. 

Let me see if I can connect the dots 

- 3 people at a class (of what a 100 people?) with Damo had Zi Fa Gong and it made you uncomfortable  so that none of the 50 or so teachers Damo has developed are any good

- allowing people to express energy in a qigong class in the form of zi fa gong makes you uncomfortable so Damo is not a good teacher irrespective of his other accomplishments (establishing multiple schools in TCM, Qigong and Martial arts with 100s of students, many hours of free materials on the internet and publishing numerous books on these subjects with 3 more being published this summer)

- While you acknowledge damo and his teachers are capable of doing qi emissions, your not having to see people with zi fa gong in class is more important than whether a teacher has this skill

 Yes it does sound like you’d be more comfortable in a class where you work with  the qi between your hands and your imagination.

12 hours ago, idquest said:

 

You did not mentioned it and I'm not sure to what extent you are aware, but Damo Mitchell studied with Mark Rasmus for several years, and I believe Damo's real core abilities come from Mark.

 

Often, people get entangled in language of the system and miss substance. Mark does not use daoist vocabulary much, but what he can do and what he teaches eclipses what most 'daoist' teachers teach.

franz Bardon/hermetics and qi is the physical breath in relation to qi gong/focus on the qi between your hands  - Rasmus 

vs

liu Yiming/Huang Yuanji/neidan and qi  is not the physical breath in relation to qi gong - inside is what is important, qi feeling on/between the hands is meaningless - Mitchell

seems there are some significant fundamental differences between them in both underlying philosophy and the foundation of their approaches. 

These writers on Neidan  (Yiming and Yuanji) and Damo are pretty conservative - no side doors, no sexual practices, no ayahuasca, as little use of the acquired mind as possible (wei wu wei with the first wei almost silent) including no visualizations, no imagination,  no shamanic magic, internal means only internal etc. I  can see how this conservative approach turns some people off. Particularly those using these methods. 

as far as Damo’s seniors - I am not sure whether you guys are referring to these folks on this list or why you don’t think highly of them. Damo has developed a large network of teachers so I don’t understand the comments on this. 

https://lotusneigong.com/branches-2/

People should choose who they want but I think one needs to go beyond just the gossip and innuendo. 

5 hours ago, Krenx said:

I have been to his workshops before. I can verify he uses more subtle frequencies of Qi to help attendees run energy a little stronger during workshops. But it is intentionally at the more subtle levels for workshops. 

 

There are people I trust who knows him personally, and have witnessed his skills. Like emitting qi in the quality similar to electricity, like the some other masters many of you have probably seen online. I hear he has improved a lot. 

 

He does not demonstrate these things publicly for obvious reasons. And I don't believe he ever will. So one will need to seek him out personally to find out in person. The answer to questions around his skill will end up "go find out yourself". It is by design, and will not really change anytime soon. People who know first hand will not share it in great detail, or any detail at all. 

 

But there is a clear pattern I think most people are starting to realize, that not many great students actually come out of the other end of the school/ system. If they did, we would be all interacting with them, attending their workshops. But instead it all keeps pointing back to Damo, which is odd after all these years. You see this odd pattern in a few schools. 

 

Which does not make sense. Because his knowledge is authentic. His training methods I have experienced is legitimate and effective. There is a missing piece to the puzzle; but have put it aside and will let things reveal itself on its own. 

 

But for good knowledge and insights, framework of internal work, and methods of training, damo and his books are valuable and answers many questions correctly 👍. Anyone who would like to learn fundamental theory of daoist arts, I will direct them to Damo's books. 

 I am curious which schools/teachers in your view are turning out good students. 

In this Damo talks about qi emissions - risks, benefits and relation to what he teaches (as well as his process for selecting who he teaches this to). I would suggest for specific questions you contact him directly through his Instagram site  Damomitchell  or through emails that are listed on his Instagram or websites. 

Was initially introduced to mudras using the hands in yoga over an extended period of years. While these were presented  in the context of elements, chakras or meditative practice I never experienced or could discern much direct physical impact from their usage. They seemed  more symbolic and intellectual than physical/energetic. 

a few years ago my body seems to have taken notice and now there are strong and specific physical and energetic effects that I experience uniquely associated with different hand mudras and other hand positions. For some simpler mudras  the specific internal effect they have and how they support a specific type of internal energetic development seem relatively straightforward to identify. For other  more complicated mudras or hand shapes/positions the specific physical effects while still quite evident, are much more difficult to specifically discern.  
 

My guess is that everyone has this built in wiring that can be triggered by mudras or other hand shapes/positions  that could be supportive in energetic or spiritual practice but they may or may not yet have discovered it. I imagine for some like me, there is some energetic threshold one must cross before this awareness/experience arises. for others maybe they were just born with this awareness built in. From my studies  use of hand mudras are not limited to yoga but are also found in a number of other self cultivation traditions. 
 

I am curious what others experiences are with mudras. Any comments you can share on your experiences with mudras or how mudras fit into your overall journey?

On 9/26/2010 at 10:26 AM, goonis38 said:

Hi everyone,

Ok... This is going to sound weird, But I'm hoping not to weird. And maybe someone can give me some insight on this. Now I don't practice any religion, but reading of the Bible, and praying. I like to listen to everyone on heres Idea's so I think everything has something to offer. I would say I am open minded...

 

Ok I had an experience tonight while I meditating, and last night same thing, but the placement of my arms where different. And in the past it had happened before, but only elbow up. This time whole arm all the way up. But just laying on my back listening to relaxing music, relaxing from my toes all the way up. Keeping my mind blank. I also started working on clearing my shakras bottom to top of head... I started moving my energy from my toes, to my head, and back, and forth, slowly. I felt floaty... And little by little my arms start to raise all the way straight up in the air. I just went with it. Keep my breathing going. And it held there awhile, and slowly lowered them gently back down on the bed.

 

I wasn't asleep for sure, if anyone is wondering this. And I'm not crazy, that I know of...lol So has anyone had this experience? and know what causes it? I felt no negative energy around me at all. Very peaceful experience. I would be able to feel negative energy.

So reason for this, anyone at all? Self induced? Spiritual? Any idea would be wonderful...

Thank You Melanie

In qi gong when the body starts to fill and pressurize with qi the arms will often start to float up, this is pretty common. The instruction is to keep them down so that the pressure is directed inside to open things up and create space . If you allow them to float it is less efficient (and it’s also kind of weird for others to see, haha).. It is a funny experience to have, particularly the first time but you get used to it. My suggestion is smile or giggle a little so you don’t take things too seriously and then just keep practicing without giving it too much thought. It is just part of the process of change, don’t get too excited or attached to it as this will slow the change process. 

I apologize if you’ve already heard this and tried it.

Too much sugar is very often the cause of low grade inflammation . People that just dramatically reduce their sugar intake often have pretty profound positive health results. Though I use the word “just” it may be simple but it’s certainly not easy.  Sugars are in many foods so it takes some effort to reduce its consumption.  Given the ubiquity of this issue, you may want to start with reducing sugar  (along with a generally balanced diet that includes more vegetables and some regular exercise) before getting into more specific solutions. May also help you avoid  cancer and diabetes when you get older. 
 

from a Daoist perspective using your zhi (willpower) to reduce sugar (and exercise more) will be good for your Jing as well

 

Milestones for qi gong and tai chi are to some degree a function of teacher and approach but  in the end basically  they are about  how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. For qi gong in particular the rabbit hole is quite deep, so deep one could indeed spend a long time training and not find the end.

a lot of people stay pretty close to the entrance to the rabbit hole in their study of internal arts. They may practice these things at a more physical level, for example many people do tai chi without much in the way of focus on specific qi or Jin development. They practice it more like an external martial art using conventional body mechanics. However, they will still likely experience the health benefits of relaxation and improved range of motion. Similarly in qi gong they might choose to focus on breathing and movement forms that have some basic  experience of chi at the nervous system level,  usually in the hands or at skin level depth. Similarly they will likely experience relaxation and improved circulation/freedom of movement. Often some mental benefits of improved concentration are found at this level of practice as well.

In contrast to this, those who choose  to go deeper may elect to do an internal system that is based on the Yi Jin Jing tendon changing principles (principles not exercises)This is an approach where you use qi to change how your body and ultimately your mind operate to make them more efficient. This involves many  hours of static stance and seated practice along with some movement based practices to open the body’s joints and channels, strengthen the nervous system  and develop the mind’s attention capability while building, gathering  and mobilizing qi. Rather than focusing on muscles and muscle contraction to build strength, it uses release of tension (hanging the flesh off the bones) to change tissue by stretching and stressing it with gravity not contraction. This  leads to the building of new tissue inside that connects everything together in a different way and enables one to build more qi.. Initially in this approach one may experience zi fa gong (spontaneous movements ) as qi used for holding tension is released inside, starts to circulate and hits blockages. It may be  like someone is touching you with a tense machine creating involuntary movements  (it also can unleash other weirder stuff too) Later this calms down and evolves to a more magnetic experience of qi fields and internal connections between parts of the body that you wouldn’t typically understand to be associated. It also enables qi and Jin to flow under direction of the shape of your body and release of mental tension. This approach may also change the shape of the body as more qi building tissue forms between the muscles and bones. Having more qi also provides fuel for spiritual development which is further down the same rabbit hole.  It’s a lot easier resting your attention on a meditation object when the qi is there providing an assist.

There are many variations between these levels and certainly some that may go even deeper or use different means . Regardless of how deep you decide to go, doing internal arts at whatever level often require a different skill set than external arts. Internal arts require some level of change to how you practice as they are usually based on release of contraction (physical - muscle contraction and mental - strong intention)This is in many ways opposite of “normal” body behavior  and development techniques that are based on muscle strength/contraction and leverage and having a  strong mental intention. Conventional strength and health make you better at internal arts but initially the biggest challenge is to find/develop your strength in release of tension (not muscle contraction/leverage/bracing ) even when you are under pressure by someone or something. This different approach can be a big  change that can take time to emerge. It may initially result in feeling like you are going backwards, getting weaker not stronger. However, this changes with time and practice. 

best wishes with your training. 

On 10/21/2024 at 3:21 PM, Eden said:

Yes but everything is interconnected, interrelated and interdependent... so those who achieve some sort of spiritual awakening through a more meditative path, inevitably will have energetic shifts and transformations of the body, mind-body-consciousness-spirit-chi-nervous system-physiology-brain chemistry-prana-kundalini.. all interrelated.

maybe there are different depths to how deep realization can be? or how deep spiritual realization has been integrated?

 

Yes, my understanding is that all our mind body  layers are interconnected and influence each other in everything we do.  The spiritual paths of addition take you through the various layers with lots of practices, physical, behavioral, energetic, mental, etc. along the way all the mind body’s layers change in a systematic interconnected  fashion, including the physical body.  The spiritual paths of subtraction approach it from the other end, removing/simplifying things often focusing on consciousness and mental processes. However, at some point all the layers change in the paths of subtraction as well. This is because we are whole beings with mind and body connected as a single unit.  you are in all your  mind body layers and are affected by them all ( until you are not). Without the mind body layers being transformed to be able to anchor the changes from the learnings on the path into it  (whether on the path of addition or on the path of subtraction or some combination of the two ) , all one has are ephemeral experiences whose effects will fade. The human mind body complex design provides each of us the opportunity for spiritual growth but for most this requires change at many levels. 
 

I think it is an excellent discipline to examine one’s practice to see if one can articulate what the cause is that they are practicing is and what the outcome is from the practice and what conditions need to be in place for the outcome to arise from the practice (the cause). I find that this  brings insight & clarity to the practice that helps one focus their efforts on the cause and  to let the effect naturally arise (or letting it naturally not arise).  

conflating outcomes with practices and trying to practice outcomes is a very common error. Practicing outcomes (either because of desire to take a shortcut or through misunderstanding) will rarely produce anything that’s  helpful.  Having a vision arise on its own of something during practice (outcome)  is very different than consciously creating a vision of that something with your mind during practice (practicing an outcome).  

I agree with both responses . Adding my two cents on the process of perceiving it. 

My understanding is that its nature is ziran. Attempts by the acquired mind to specifically make it arise likely work to negate it.  What one can do (actually a form of not doing) is to release logical discursive thoughts so that they do not exclude it from our conscious perception. Going inside with bare attention (without the tension caused by goals, desires, agendas or logical expectations) provides  an opportunity for one to perceive it as it naturally arises. 

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think dream information spans the three levels of the body - physical, subtle and causal, not really much beyond that though. Nonetheless relatively objective information about issues on any of these levels is beneficial. Dream information may be superseded when one becomes fully conscious of all realities within these three bodies, but before that I see them as beneficial. I also acknowledge other forces are required beyond dreams, even to to get to the ‘spiritual’ level, I concur with the idea that true spirituality only begins once one has cut through rudra granthi, and i certainly don’t believe that can be done with dreams. In a way it’s all just a huge puzzle, and I appreciate any internally available tool to get me through it. 

Yes I think there are likely spiritual needles in the haystack of dreams (same in our waking world discursive thought) but it’s a tricky and painful process to sort through the hay   when relying on someone/something  that feels threatened by the needles (the acquired mind) to see them.

there are perhaps other  ways to differentiate the various spiritual paths that are useful such as the process of addition/process of subtraction or Ming/Xing.   I prefer continuums to binary systems as they are more flexible and seem to be better at accommodating all the nuances that exist (or that people believe exist.) like anything continuums have their problems too as it’s difficult to find pure anchor points at the far  edges. 

My understanding is that dreams are similar to discursive thought related to the acquired mind.  Focusing on them one runs the risk of getting stuck at that level. My understanding is that dreams end at some point on the spiritual path. 

i think methods that pursue and promote mental health are just that. Spiritual paths in my understanding are quite different. Improved mental health may be a byproduct but is not the goal of the spiritual path. However, the spiritual path may also (will likely) stress your mental health at some point, so it’s best to address health vulnerabilities prior to commencing your journey. 

Seems like both have the potential for problems. Integration model risks focusing one on the acquired mind with an endless stream of rumination all reinforcing itself that doesn’t go anywhere because it continues to be from that perspective . The transcendent may bypass the vehicle we are in  (the body) which has many interconnected layers influencing each other (physical, mental, emotional, energetic, causal etc ) that all participate in each activity you undertake. Bypassing these may take you somewhere that is irrelevant that you don’t want to be. I would describe both risks as taking/keeping you outside - either at the level of the acquired mind or at a void level (truly empty, nihilistic,negative). This void is different than  “emptiness”.

whichever route one takes it’s important to factor in these risks to your approach. I think the paths  that take you inside approaching things with just attention can help with both risks. I think viewing it as an either/or choice of paths is likely a false choice.i think a better choice is acknowledging the risks of each and making adjustments as needed to your path. 

Thanks. Gives me something to think about.  the ding shi is the focus for me now as it seems quite strong. Direction seems relative to me, perhaps because I am not fixed. Though where I live is notorious for change.  Earth and wood seem to be the strongest  influences in me. From your comments I detect a bit of wood in you too…haha.

Sifu Laoxi (Christopher Matsuo) in addition to teaching the Kwan Yin Magnetic qi gong he teaches a Kwan Yin form.  He also teaches stuff related to the forms  discussed on the Flying Phoenix thread here on the forum including some different forms relying on  breath percentages like flying Phoenix. 
 

On 12/19/2024 at 10:12 PM, Gerard said:

1. What exactly would you like to know? Some stuff, I won't discuss online...how deep does the rabbit hole go? Unless you have gone deep enough, one won't be able to understand it. 

 

2. How long have you been practising 

i am not looking for secrets but just a framework (sort of like I wrote using qi and Jin to do the movements through release) about what makes it internal in your practice. 

I recall you mentioning the organ systems and I am familiar with how this model  is used in the internal mechanic framework (elements/organs - wuxing) of Xing Yi and Tai chi (and Neidan) , but not bagua Zhang. Seems like there is more of a connection to Yi Jing in the bagua I have seen. I realize bagua may go very deep, as deep or deeper than tai chi well beyond my ability to comprehend but I don’t think this is solely based on which step you use or how to use the kua or the dang. 
 

On 12/20/2024 at 5:01 PM, ralis said:

Let’s just stop all sex and within a hundred years or so planet earth can breathe a sigh of relief when all humans have vanished. 😂😂

There is a term called mitahara in yoga that I think is applicable. It’s usually translated as the “controlled intake of healthy food”. The idea here is selectively eating both in amount, type and time. Generally amount is less than what fully fills you, the type is largely based on listening to your body but is assumed to be limiting certain types like sugars and meats, and time could be time of day  or in relation to your practice. Now one could write books on the meaning of each of these and it’s not intended as a singular solution but as a guideline that is organic that to some degree you have to find on your own. Those involved with self cultivation often find that their ability to discern what is healthy for them increases with practice as they become more aware and sensitive. 
 

the way mitahara was taught to me it didn’t just include foods but rather applied to all the things consumed by your senses (watching tv, use of computers, attending events, really anything that stimulates the senses which includes sex). . The idea was to manage the intake to all of your senses in terms of  quantity, type, and time. It meant being aware that all these activities carried consequences that you need to manage as an adult in terms of costs and benefits   Controlled intake means conscious choice based on what is healthy for you as best as you can determine. It’s not repression but sometimes it might mean using your will to control your behavior. Using your will in moderate doses is healthy for you. The Daoists would say it’s good for your Jing to exercise this. It’s called discipline. Repression is moving the desires to the unconscious level and this can create  serious psychological problems. Suppression means you are conscious of your desires but you are deciding that their cost to you exceeds their benefit. 

 From both a yogic and Daoist perspective sex uses energy that might otherwise be used for other purposes, such as self cultivation.  Sex also exposes one to others energy (at the physical, emotional and energetic levels) , which can be healthy or not depending on the relationship to  your partner and your partner’s hygiene (at all levels). Even a computer screen carries some type of energy you are opening yourself energetically to with porn.  So it’s important to make good decisions on it.   the Daoists actually have guides based on age for how much sex is healthy/unhealthy  but I think it’s a little more complicated than that but perhaps it’s a start.  Ultimately it’s up to each individual as an adult to find the balance that works for them 

In these traditions thinking is viewed as one of the senses. This means mitahara applies to discursive thinking as well and that it has cost and benefits and should be managed like the other senses. 

On 2/15/2023 at 10:58 PM, Gerard said:

 

The key points are regardless of Ba Gua styles, lineages and teachers:

 

1. Circle walking

2. Correct body alignment

3. Correct execution of kou bu (hook step, inwards) and bai bu (swing step, outwards) stepping. Whether is mud stepping or crane is irrelevant, even though the first is definitively more Yin than the latter

4. Integrated movement: Man placed between Heaven & Earth (Taoist trinity and one of the foundations of philosophy and medicine, of which this art is renowned for)

 

The test are accessories, some people focus on combat, others on form while others on healing and fitness. Yet there is another category: the ones that have connected with the original mind, the spirit, the real US. This group is a minority and it doesn't belong to any of the above categories; it just happens when you practice the art DEEPLY. 
 

What is practising Ba Gua deeply?

 

When emphasis is placed upon:

 

1. Doing foundation work. Refer to He Jing Han's teachings (youtube channel)

2. Focusing on the Eight Mother Palms 

3. Focusing on a single Palm for extended periods of time while walking many circles before changing direction; eg. 100 circles clockwise & 100 circles anti-clockwise

4. Integrating seated meditation in practice 

5. Celibacy/regulating jing emission. Difficult when being involved in a relationship

6. Diet

7, Lifestyle. Living in busy society vs living like a hermit or a monk; that is a fully commitment to the path of integrating Body & Mind

 

 

 

 

What about internal energetics?  Anything you can share on this?

Baguazhang is usually designated as an internal martial art. In my understanding this means  the art doesn’t rely on conventional external body mechanics but rather harnesses the energetic body to move the physical body by using soong  (release of tension) to mobilize the qi through the body’s soft tissues. In other words  yi then qi then upper body movement, not yi then muscle contraction to move. For example I am learning a version of Cheng (Liu Jinru’s). In it I am attempting to do each arm and torso movement in this fairly twisty form by using release to initiate upper body movement not by conventional muscle contraction. It’s not easy but it’s pretty interesting when it works…it’s like the body is moving on its own and your job is to direct it with the shape and to keep from letting the energy uproot or twist you as it can be quite fast and strong . The  way I have learned relies on the yellow court/middle Dan tian as the central point/director of the process. The release creates a lot of internal movement and stretching of tissue deep inside which provides the connectivity/strength behind the movement. 

Using release also means you can use it in grappling to compromise the  opponents ability to apply conventional force on you when bridging (touching) similarly  to what happens in tai chi push hands/rubbing hands.  The term I’ve heard used to describe the analogous activity in bagua is rou shou or soft hands. The internal energetic engine of bagua is different than tai chi as are the applications to use it  in grappling but soong/release purportedly has a similar effect on the opponent’s body  in bagua as in tai chi. As Cheng style Baguazhang was developed by a master with wrestling skills it likely came in quite handy. Release also can be used to quickly propel strikes like the piercing palm. 

Habit forming aspect of it burns through Jing as it can be very addictive. Can think of it like anything that has a strong attraction that has the potential to compromises one’s will (alcohol, drugs, greed, power, obsessions,  etc) It’s not just because of the sexual part. Soon as it hooks you to look your will has been affected and you’re burning Jing. Then soon  as sexual desire is stimulated more Jing is burned. Most of the damage is actually already done before climax is reached. 

Also sort of connects you karmically to what is happening to the people on the screen in terms of their potential abuse by their handlers. 

For me I seem need to apply willpower initially to escape the  “gravity” ofThe attachment to break the pattern . Once the effects of this gravity are reduced acceptance/emptiness works fine. I think going directly to emptiness for some people might not be realistic and perhaps result in an intellectual delusion. 
 

also another interpretation of returning to original may have a second meaning related to the alchemical process - stilling the Jing process as prep for alchemy. It’s about removing the stresses/attachments  of everyday life so that one can go beyond normal functioning through cultivation of original Jing/qi etc. it’s not just breaking habits it’s about not being distracted or affected  by the stimulus associated with them. In some cases this might require being away from modern society.