Seeking

2 minutes ago, natural said:

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

No two people will take the same path recovering from depression.  It's not a simple illness with a one-size-fits-all solution.  Some might well benefit from doing as you suggest Seeking: taking the depression as a signal that something is going wrong in life and fixing it.  Others will need pharmaceutical help or therapy, often both.  We do a disservice to those suffering with this difficult disease when we imply that the way out is obvious or easy.

 

Once again, I didn't say that it was. What I did say was that the chemical imbalance theory is a complete scam to foist pills at a profit and that the various talk modalities range from totally useless to actually dangerous. For most people depression is caused by a lack of options which makes them feel powerless. The bodymind creates this state of malaise to motivate the person to get off their bottom and go and do something about it, change it aka create options. The money in this situation would make the average factory worker laid off with depression forget about all of that in an instant as he'd have a much wider focus.

 

Thing is he doesn't need the money to open his mind but for most people they need external strength to offset their internal weakness and that was the whole point of this rather flippant example that I've now drilled to death by decimating it to clarify it for you.

 

Idiots guide = Depression is due to feelings of powerlessness as an effect of continually narrowing options that seemingly get worse and worse. People misread the cue and other people makes lots of money out of it.

 

 

13 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

It was just a passing feeling.  When the feeling passed, I edited my post.  

 

I see *takes notes* *scratches beard* *adjusts tampon* So what you're saying is that these feelings, they come and go, correct? And when new ones come you wish to revise the previous perspective, yes? Interesting. How does that make you feel? Did you always feel that way? What do you think this means?

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

This is a depressing response.  Fifty million euros would likely cheer me up, at least for the afternoon, but civility would be the more fitting solution (though arguably harder to come by.)

 

*strokes beard* *looks thoughtful* *takes notes*

 

"Yes, I see... And why did it make you feel that way?"

3 minutes ago, natural said:

 

So wealthy peeps are immune to depression?

I beg to differ.

 

I didn't say that but you are free to rattle your begging cup as noisily as you wish.

On 5/5/2013 at 8:42 PM, dmattwads said:

I had some what of a personal insight to depression during meditation today. After sitting in mindfulness for a while I became aware of the feeling of depression. So I watched it for a while. The next thing I became aware of was that it seemed that underneath or beyond what I label "depression" or a depressing feeling was a specific inner dialogue. I saw / heard two sides of my subconscious talking to each other. One side was very critical, the other side was the side getting bummed out by being criticized. The next thing I became aware of was this very tight knotted feeling in my solar plexus area, specifically the left side of it going under my lower rib cage. I realized that these feelings were emanating from this area and that it was always tight there and usually I just didn't pay much attention to it. As I kept simply observing it for a while it seemed to lighten up quite a bit, and some of that tightness seemed to loosen up and turn into this "buzzing" feeling lol.

 

This is what it sounds like when Shens cry.

 

Depression is a message that your life isn't how its supposed to be so do something to change it. People misread the signal as "Hey Doc, give me some pills that don't really do a thing beyond distracting me as your attention is the most healing aspect of all of this" or going to bleat to a shrink who is actually more messed up than you are. They just have more paperwork to disguise it and, occasionally, some cool parlor tricks to keep you amused.

 

Take the most depressed person in the world and give them £50 million. Watch how quickly their "depression" evaporates because the money represents the potential to change and thats all they needed in the first place. Thing is they weren't creative enough to think of a solution without the paper but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

猴子在树上。男人只看到椰子。

 

成功有两个关键。首先：永远不要告诉任何人你所知道的一切。第二：

 

15 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Or based on the mechanisms of the style. A preskription for a specific ailment is different from a long term practice. 

I have, and there are clear differences in sensations. 

 

But, having a practice routine that fits with overall life is, in my opinion, of more value than trying to fit in my practice at a specific time based on sensations. 

 

Yes, exactly. Whilst neigong is the whole body thing there are certain qigong aspects that are aimed primarily at healing specific ailments and blockages. That is what I meant about tying in the times and directions to the practice for more aligned benefits.

 

The latter point is a problem of the modern age as we live our lives with very unnatural cycles that are coordinated to business interests moreso than our own rhythms and this cumulatively has an effect.

 

 

These points don't seem to be discussed much and I made the thread to see if others have considered them and experimented. If so I'm interested in hearing what differences you got from your form when you switched the timing, direction etc...

This thread ties in a lot to my incomplete knowledge thread.

 

Tangent but when it comes to Kundalini people think that when it kicks in you'll all of a sudden become some saintlike person. Wrong, it just makes you more of what you were and its up to you to shed those unwanted layers to actualize what you are. So if you're a crotchety moaner pre-K afterwards you'll be a horrendously negative person to be around. If you lack the insight you won't notice the change as you are too busy "being you" as all of your old familiar ways are amplified now, plus it feels great plus you're in the K Club so what can go wrong?

 

What happens is this extra energy is chewing up the system like gunked up engine oil in a car that is redlined all the time. Sure it feels great for the driver but he never looks under the hood and no one else told him about this bit so on he goes. End result? Great power internally whilst looking totally depleted externally. Bodybuilders in general are the flip of this as its rare you'll meet one with even an inkling of balance as they are too caught up in appearance/stats.

 

Now most of the Yoga out there is straight up BS, calisthenics dressed in Indian attire and totally devoid of the inner aspects and circulations beyond airy fairy lip service and visualization. But what it does do is "purify" the practitioners current level of embodiment by working out the previously acquired kinks. Net result = same energy as before but less resistance. Contrast with Captain K who has more energy but still the same old resistance in place that is now overpowered by the influx of energy.

 

Which one do you think would look more healthy and vital?

 

Its all because we have bits and pieces of complete systems that have been released in randomized chunks without the coherent framework, guidelines and general insight required in order to be able to sort out the modern messed up man. Most of the practitioners don't have a clue and frankly don't care. Intuition also isn't that high and if it is they're scared to "distort" the form by doing what their body wisdom says due to the rigid dogma attached.

 

In a nutshell what we have these days are fossilized, devitalized aspects of complete forms that were once living energies and are now reduced to a series of poses that are better than nothing but nothing like what they really should be.

 

There is a reason why the old practices had such long initiation periods as they were actually deconditioning to get the adept back to a baseline but that doesn't sell well in the modern world. Heck it didn't sell well in the old world but people took it if they wanted to ride the rollercoaster because there were no TVs to watch instead. That and the living energies part, this is why it was always a ear to mouth practice before being written down and that in itself killed most of the knowledge out there and we get to this point where people spin empty water wheels (or gunked up engine oil as they redline) and thinking they're making process.

 

If cultivation is an intelligence test a lot of people failed it and didn't even realize. Most of them went on to teach other people how to be exactly like them

Go to a library or bookstore. Wander around a bit then pick a title at random with closed eyes and see what it says to you. Dealing out playing cards into a pile of black and red with eyes closed is also another good one.

55 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Do you have any experience with this happening at all? This is not a general prescription that happens with all styles or teachers.

 

 

Again this depends on the style being practiced and the teacher. It's not a general one-size-fits-all approach.

 

 

 

Yes, thats what I mean in the sense that the teacher dictates the practice usually based on their insight of the student and whats needed whereas these days on the net its just a case of "hurry up and buy".

 

24 minutes ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

 

Right after you wake up and are completely well rested is the best time imho. 

 

If you are hungry eat a very light meal just enough to keep the stomach pangs away, eating too much will make you drowsy. 

 

 

Have you ever tried moving your practice to different times to check the variations (if any) in your experience?

Everything is natural. It only appears super to those who are of the world (as opposed to those in it) because they expect it to conform to their expectations/programming with the common delusions of the age.

Yes, thats what I mean. If, lets say, you get "prescribed" a Qigong form in China they'd give you a certain one to be done at a certain time to get the result you require by addressing the main imbalance first.

 

Now with the net and "All the forms you can eat" at your fingertips that diagnosis aspect is missing and I feel its a vital part that many gloss over. Like I said not much discussion on it but it could also explain why two people doing the same form get such totally different effects.

 

Also, whilst we're on the topic:

 

What do you lot do as a warm up to before practicing to get the energies flowing and awaken the meridians? The same old joint circles routine everyone seems to know (feet circles, knee circles, hip circles, shoulder circles) or something a bit more fancy?

 

I've recently been thinking about that as well after a convo in which someone said "The first 45 minutes of most peoples practice is entirely wasted as it takes the bodies this long to gain equilibrium in order to optimally cultivate". That was quite an interesting observation and was the precursor to this topic we're now discussing but its these basics which are often not spoken of these days as the Chinese think "Everyone knows anyway" and the rest of the world doesn't know what they're missing. 

 

Its the same as opening and closing which I discussed here:

A vital aspect that means the difference between flow and stagnation that many are simply unaware of as its spoken of so little and people are expected to just "get it".

 

Advanced glycation end products (AGEs ironically enough) are what you need to look into in a practical sense before diving into the sea of theoretical mumbo jumbo and general sketchiness.

 

There was a good thread here about why so many Qigong masters look like shit thats worth a browse:

 

 

Other factors to consider (which are related to AGEs and aging) are inflammation, cortisol levels, quality of sleep and lymph circulation. The other one is genetics, some people only have the raw equipment to age like milk whilst others mature like whisky.

 

Better genes next time!

 

99% of what the mainstream tells you is was and will be straight up BS. Why? Because they treat people like mushrooms as its good for business.

What if all of the "deaths" you've been responsible for in the various games you play are actually attributed as actual murders when they weigh your soul against a feather (or whatever you believe)?

 

Purely an intellectual pursuit here to get you all to think outside of the frame as its an entirely viable possibility when you consider games take place in their own "world" and the (soon to be) AI assisted characters by default will have some rudimentary subjective experience/feels much like our own.

 

What if we're actually in a game with really good graphics? Are we playing or getting played?

One of the most obvious fallacies of modern Theravada Buddhism is the depiction of the Buddha with a full head of hair. Living in Southeast Asia, asking the average Buddhist about this results in a range of answers, from a shrug and smile (admitting that it is incorrect but supposing that it is not worth worrying about) over to the opposite extreme of taking offense and demanding to know how anyone could dare to raise the question. Some might ask how we could know what the Buddha looked like after so many centuries, if we didn’t blindly trust in a succession of statues and amulets. It is needless to say that the Pali canon does not contain photographic evidence, but it does contain evidence of another kind, and this article tries to answer the question (that almost nobody dares to ask) in as few words as possible, by working from the primary sources.

 

Rest of the article:

 

https://www.newmandala.org/the-buddha-was-bald/

 

Wondering what you lot make of this? It ties into what I've said previously about lies, distortions and half truths that amusingly permeate a way that is supposed to be all about truly perceiving reality.

 

Maybe thats all part of the test and those who buy into the party line failed, eh? I'm thinking it might be some kind of prank like that as things like this are so obvious. The article is very well written and raises a lot of good points about primary sources and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Haven't seen much chat on this topic and was wondering about it. Seeing as there are certain times and rhythms for certain organs/energy circuits as well as the bodies innate endocrine system plus cosmic cycles/influences it stands to reason that a form, any form, practiced consistently at differing times of day will generate different results for the cultivator.

 

Would you agree?

 

To me it seems self evident and something you can easily test by switching up your practice. The energy generated has a different hue/vibration and its quite noticeable.

 

This then got me thinking it makes sense to time your practice with whatever energy system needs the most attention as its getting the greatest effect that way.

 

What do you think? Ever experimented with this before? Also, whilst we're on it - what about the direction you're facing?

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The reality is that qigong and the internal arts are like any field of human endeavour - the vast majority are not good at all… a minority are mediocre and a tiny sliver are true masters of their art.

 

This should be printed out and hung up over the entrance to the world. Such a simple truth that can be applied to so many fields.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The people that came to the west were certainly not the best. The best had very good reputations, had their disciples and their schools to worry about… if the political situation made it difficult they would just move to the many other Chinese communities in other Asian countries next door.

 

The ones that came to the west were mediocre at best and complete charlatans at worst.
 

Often they were outcasts from genuine traditions with a bad reputation in Asia. But when they escaped that reputation by coming to the west, they found a thirst for knowledge and a lack of insight and distinctions - so they could simply teach whatever they wanted and it would sell.

 

As a clue - if a teacher can’t name their teachers… or they’re reportedly some hermit with a cloud based name… or there’s some other mystical backstory - then it’s a big red flag suggesting that there’s something suspect in their history. Either they were kicked out, were never allowed to teach or just used books and imagination to create their systems.

 

This is what I’ve been told many times by some of the teachers that stayed…

 

Now we have a generation of people that learned from these ‘masters’ teaching others - and the results are horrific.

 

Theres also a trend of going to China to get all the ‘authentic’ pictures taken - and study at one of the ‘centres of cultural heritage’ (like Wudang) that CCP uses as a means of soft power… The photos, outfits and time spent in China legitimises their teachings… which are basically just choreography and callisthenics.

 

Honestly the situation is quite disheartening.

 

Yes, exactly. Its the next generation that compounds the previous ones errors and the problems this can cause. The partially sighted leading the blind is worse than the blind by themselves as at least that way they'd have a sense of caution. In another thread I mentioned the top draw don't leave home because they have no need to and what was shipped out was often thrown out or no good in the first place as you said. Couldn't match the standard so off they went because they'll buy anything in the West with no questions asked. 

 

It will be interesting to see how this develops now the world is "flat" thanks to the net as the real will have to rise, even if by accident.

 

6 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I came to realise pretty much the same a few years back. In the majority of wisdom traditions, you won't get the full system online. The only way is through years of practice and direct instruction from a qualified teacher. Then you have the problem of telling which teacher has real attainment or not.

 

Yes, it definitely seems like there are clear cut steps on this path as many people see the same things, time and again. Others obviously must see them too but choose not to pay attention as that would mean having to admit the error of their ways and flushing all of the investment in their practice. Their egos often can't take this. Nor will they brook any discussion on the topic. Quite sad really.

 

7 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Conversely, I've come to realise that the practice that is more powerful than any esoteric energy practice is your basic anapanasati. Just sitting and following the breath for a couple of hours, is more likely to be genuinely transformative than spending that time waving your arms around or doing complicated breathing patterns. 

 

Of course, you still need a retreat setting at times and direct feedback from a teacher, but in terms of the heart of the method being publicly available, the only place you see that is in theravada and some schools of zen.

 

100%. It is simple, effective, direct and thus wholly ignored by people who need something with a bit more drama and cool points. Can really Instagram sitting still and breathing, can you? Breath + awareness is really the key, the fundamental that underpins all and its often only mentioned in passing when it comes to standing on your head whilst making figure 8 movements with your legs as you breathe in and out like an accordion full of amphetamines.

 

 

I noticed this same hollow inauthenticity with Yoga as that is mostly a scam, same with most forms of meditation and most recently Qigong got my attention and, what do you know, more of the same. I can definitely say that my time served in just observing the sensation of breath, expanding to full body awareness then turning it around to witness the witness itself is what fueled the intuition I was speaking of. Its literally the basics and yet the most complex at the same time as it embraces everything by doing nothing yet by doing nothing all is done. Funny how that works.

 

Back to the topic though. I suppose the quest for a full system and one who can teach it is part of the whole adventure really. I definitely get the feeling they aren't online and selling any courses or CDs though. There are a couple for sure who have genuine potent systems, a wealth of experience and insight but they, for whatever reason, practice that privately and what they teach publicly is either a ) totally different/from a public lineage they were allowed to disclose or b ) real but very heavily diluted and skewed toward the yin concepts and very much downplaying the yang and true power of the form.

 

Funny thing is Bruce Lee was apparently exactly the same. He artfully misdirected his students and never taught them what he'd actually learned himself. Sure he gave them something that was far beyond what anyone else was offering but it wasn't what made him, him. And all this time later things haven't changed. Well apart from the fact that none of these "Masters" are Bruce in any way shape or form as they're selling an image with nothing behind it as he actually put the work in and learned it direct and in the flesh.

 

Thing I don't get (well, I do - ego investment) is how people who follow and practice these methods don't even have the insight to think "Wait a minute I've been doing this for 2 decades and I'm pretty much exactly the same as I was when I started". Maybe thats why they avoid the simple breath awareness aspect as that as a barometer alone would make the lack of progress self evident.

 

So odd.

Don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

 

Now we've got that out of the way, what do you think it is? A bunch of neurochemical secretions to ensure the propagation of the species or something more ephemeral and magical? Do people truly love another or do they simply love what they provide/make them feel? Is love entirely selfish at its root or is it selfless when ideal?

 

For those that have done drugs its interesting how love acts very much like them when you're high on it and can have a similar comedown when the honeymoon is over. Its also fascinating how the vast majority of the populace possesses almost no love for themselves and yet say they have plenty to give whilst being totally unaware of the contradiction and how impossible that is. Its also amusing that one who gives this state to themselves, freely and without restraint is seen as "arrogant" "self centered" "full of himself".

 

The ironies. They're something else. Take it away, ladies and gentlemen.

Don't say a word.

 

Stick out your tongue, let them feel your pulse, maybe check your eyes and then compare what they offer with your actual state of dysfunction at the present moment. If they get 80% of the way there you've got a good un. Also the best TCM practitioners tend not to leave China as they have no need to. Those that do are often the dregs or ones who couldn't make it in competition with the locals so they hop on a plane to feel tall in a land of mental midgets where the populace lack the wherewithal and experience to question their methods.

Have you noticed this? Maybe its just the Chinese way of disinfo to weed out the real from the fake by who sees through the trick and who falls, hook line and sink. The way I see it is like this:

 

Intuitively I sense that a lot of practices/forms that are in the public domain are either obviously watered down, incomplete or just straight up forgeries of the real deal. Its hard to express linguistically because intuition is preverbal but on an energetic level its like this:

 

There is a "field" shall we say, an energetic blueprint of wholeness that is around certain forms. One very popular form on here has it present and correct but only at the foundational/middle level as there are higher aspects of it that are obviously not released to the public yet. Its like I can feel the "shape" of the form, its non physical point of origin and then there is whats being taught and you can compare and contrast the sensations, if you get what I'm saying? Like a glass half filled with negative space in the rest. Whats that old saying? "If a man is thirsty give him half a cup. If he truly thirsts he will ask for more". Like I said, its cultural and naturally ingrained in the Eastern belief system and seems obvious to me.

 

I do get the feeling that during the Qigong boom of the 70s lots of half assed info was spread that was then further mangled in translation with compounded errors added on by "Masters" in the West who pay obesience to Oriental gentlemen that aren't actually equipped to sweep the temple steps, let alone guide anyone else. Simply put they're faking it to people who can't tell the difference anyway.

 

Its super common in the magick field for those of you who know as Grimoires are parallel to a form and people hold them close to their chest. Workings that are shared are often flipped, edited or distorted to keep the originator in a place of power or just to plain through the followers off course and waste their time in pointless busy work. The parallel in the energy fields is quite evident and I'm wondering if anyone else has spotted it?

 

Out of respect I won't be naming names as to what I see as fraudulent as that really doesn't serve any purpose as its up to the practitioner to be discerning and heed that inner wisdom. Sometimes its like this:

 

 

Where the whole practice is correct but taught "off script" so that the pieces are in the incorrect order and there is not optimal correlation with the energy field of the form in its optimal state. Others are more like:

 

 

In that what you have will never fit, no matter what you try. Most people are just happy enough to have some pieces to play with due to the distraction and busy work it brings even if cumulatively they are running on an energetic treadmill as a total waste of their effort.

 

Intuition is preverbal but hopefully you get my imagery and intent. There are also loads of other factors like cultural cues which are self evident and felt like they never needed to be expressed when mouth to ear teachings were written down only to have them literally translated centuries later and make absolutely no sense. Yet people dare not question "the old ways" because they lack the discernment to see what I've outlined.

 

Do you agree or disagree? Or is my attitude of nonchalant bravado showing again?

”I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” said a man who knew a thing or two about a thing or two.

 

There was a time when forms and practices were closely guarded secrets and one had to show ones worth before gaining access. These days the internet encourages a Pollyanna attitude and there is always something shinier and newer so people barely scratch the surface due to their lack of dedication and short attention spans that crave novelty.

 

Or as the philosopher sage known as Garfield once opined:

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/21/2021 at 11:45 PM, freeform said:

All religious paths have an outer ‘common’ face and a hidden ‘inner’ face.

 

The common folk use worship, prayers and mantras as means of generating favour, luck or some sort of gain (in merit, in spiritual growth, a better rebirth etc).

 

The hidden aspect of ‘worship’ is internal… meaning that one isn’t actually worshiping something outside of themselves - but they do use an outer form as a means to generate a state of deep inner humility which opens up the space necessary to allow the divine aspect  of themselves to arise. This is what Buddha or Guan Yin or some other deity represents - a divine quality within.

 

Observing these two approaches will look the same to an onlooker… ritual respect - whether its bowing or lighting incense or some other ritual. But what’s happening on the inside is very different.

 

Its worth knowing that what you think you see is also subject to the outer and the inner form of seeing  

 

Beautiful, this is exactly it. The difference between listening and hearing. I feel that I hear whilst those who inspired this thread did listen and weren't aware of the difference between sitting out the outer gate or actually making an entrance to the temple, only to find yourself seated within, waiting saying "Glad to make your acquaintance" and then the next spiral begins.

I've often suspected that monkeys are way more intelligent than the current "evolution" of the human species. They're definitely far better embodied, more in touch with the earth and the resonant cycles of life whilst we have stripy toothpaste and flat screens.

 

Yippee!

On 11/29/2021 at 7:17 PM, Nungali said:

 

In many ways people try to make Buddhism a religion , its human nature, we dont seem to be able to help it .  The same with Buddha himself , he has been deified , worshipped, idolised , etc . 

 

really , he should be approached more like Socrates or Plato - a philosopher of the mind teaching practices . But his  area of operation was very exoteric  and 'out there'  -    meaning, people there where immersed in a society that saw everything as religious and magical  and  the associated practices where open explored  in public .   Maybe they and many people nowadays have difficulty putting it in a context that is not religious .

 

And they didnt like that pointed out to them ?   Really  ?   .....   

 

A word on worship . Its a great practice as long as it is  consciously understood as part of invocation  and it is supposed to be directed towards a 'force' (  a 'God' one wants to evoke  so as to incorporate a articular energy into your psyche .  ) But  in magic this is said to be a dangerous practice for the unprepared ; the magician may loose himself in it as it is powerful .

 

Eg. Instead of the magician  convincing all the other parts of himself that a particular God force is real and  he is receiving the qualities of that God , he might start actually believing that himself .  Its like the difference  of practising certain Hare Krishna beliefs  to becoming some sort of mindless devotee that only ever has an interest or operation in that area . Eventually that can blind one  to lead to obsession or fanaticism . 

 

Yes, exactly. From what I see of Buddha he was very much attempting to get people to make the leap from mensch to ubermensch by thinking for themselves aka "Do the works I do and greater by being you" and instead people want to walk around looking like a straight up mess within but with a cutout Buddha face they wear as a mask. Who are they trying to fool? The circle jerk echo chambers congratulate each other on their fakeness as they buy into each others pretense and this is evidenced by the simple fact that none of the supposed "followers" have ever reached enlightenment or anything close to the insight and impact of the one they try and emulate.

 

My intent was purely to question the ritualism, the contradiction, the surface level understanding of the obviously profound realizations of which he speaks. Later I came to realize that describing enlightenment and the steps required to get there is akin to instructing a blind paraplegic how to dance into the sunset. They simply lack the frame of reference but good on old Buddsy for giving it a pop as some us get his drift and stroll along the way via the guidance of our own inner glow.

 

On 12/4/2021 at 12:56 AM, Mark Foote said:

In the speeches recorded close to his death, Gautama said:

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves.

 

Nothing more needs to be said. This quote reflects my intent perfectly as you can't borrow anothers light and the plan is to make your own by recognizing your own glow ergo none is high nor low. Feel me?