Spaceofawareness

I have heard enlightenment described as “cessation”. It is described as the seeing through of maya or illusion. The illusion being this world and it’s suffering.

 

From a more Vedic context, it is when one realises they are Brahman, their sense of individuality drops away and world of luminosity and emptiness remain. 

 

Some describe all beings as already being enlightened, yet their enlightenment is hidden or covered by the projecting and veiling power of this illusory existence.

 

in all contexts, there is a seeing through the illusory world of suffering, the world is seen through, as is the construct of the self.

 

Thats my very limited grasp of this.

 

But in order to know where you are going, you need to know roughly what it is, or you may not realise when you find it.

 

you need an ontology to put it in context.

I’ve heard some people say it could be the nervous system, and or the endocrine system (hormones).

I am wondering, were you lost in the fear, or did you remain present? I assume the latter, as you had the presence of mind to defuse the situation and not become reactive. Overall I’d say it was wise.

 

When fear responses kick in, everything naturally becomes heightened, and our focus narrows naturally. Nature chooses for us, whether we can remain calm and collected or whether the bodies natural defences take over, but it seems altogether you remained true.

One thing I would ask, and it may be off base, but as these emotions are arising quite intrusively, and it seems you are averse to these emotions, are they attached to any current unfinished business?

 

What I mean is, are you trying to escape from the emotions by using meditation as a means to “zap” the emotions? 

 

If these emotions are simply left over waves in your being which no longer serve any purpose, then disregard my question, but typically, emotions point to something which we aren’t addressing in our lives. 

 

In this way, no amount of observing would be able to disconnect you from an emotion with an active source or root. 

 

I am not saying, follow the emotion and allow it to dictate your life, but maybe if it continually arises, there might be something which needs dealing with.

 

Alternatively, self inquiry could be useful. Asking yourself if there is emotion, and it is observed but with no distance, how is it this can be known. Could there be a deeper space of knowing in which this is appearing, and can you at least notice this space exists when the emotions subside?

 

Try bringing yourself back to the senses, such as observing sight, allowing colour, shapes, movement to come to you without naming it. Sitting quietly maybe sounds also come to you, merely just observing the quality and character of each sense experience. And definitely grounding this all in the felt sensation of the breath, which is the key to all of this. Become intimately linked to your breath, even when not sitting. Notice your breathing throughout the day whenever possible. But don’t make this a forced thing, and don’t tell yourself “keep noticing the breath”. Be kind to yourself, and allow the sensation of breath to come to you, and stick with you like a shadow, like you always have one eye on the breath. 

 

This might all be obvious stuff, but it sounds like going back to basics and just grounding yourself in this could be useful. 

 

Additionally, it could be you have been trying too hard. You might be caught up in doing this so much that it has become effortful which is antiproductive to this. Don’t force the attention on the breath, attention is the intentional and wilful directing of our consciousness towards a target. This is the “active”, effortful way of observing, but is not what you want to use. You also have a “passive” way of observing, which although can be gently directed, normally just allows the senses, or even the mind to direct it. This is what you need to become more in touch with. Rest more in the passive form of observation, just noticing things. This passive observing is already more spacious and detached compared to active attention. That’s not to say that emotions won’t rattle it, those emotions can and will overshadow this briefly, but, just make sure you come back to this passive observing space. Emotions shouldn’t be the target for now. If they arise, try to notice them, and come back to the breath in this passive observing. And if you do get caught in the emotion, it’s okay. You might be lost in the emotion for a little while. What is most important, is noticing when this has happened, not that it happens or not. Then, once you see clearly you were caught in that emotion, come back to the breath.

 

Another thing which might be useful is, instead of only doing this when doing sitting meditation, bring it into your day. For instance, when you are preparing dinner, observe the cutting, the actions, just notice that you are doing them. And all the while, link this noticing back to the breath.

 

If you are putting our the washing, focus on the way your body moves, grabbing the wet clothes, grabbing a peg, etc. 

 

If you are picking up the coffee cup to take a sip, observe the movement of your hand to the cup, the sensation of of the cup touching your lips, the sensation of swallowing the coffee. Also notice, did you choose to pick up the coffee cup, or did it just happen?

 

For all the mundane tasks in your life, do this. After a while it will become second nature, you will carry this mindfulness with you everywhere, like a shadow or an echo.  

 

But once again, don’t force any of this.

It seems the saying “turning the light around” has pretty pervasive usage in eastern traditions, through Buddhism, Zen as well as daoism.

 

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Turning the Light Around and Shining Back ekō henshō
回光返照
Shakyamuni Buddha (Sandhinirmochana Sutra, ~300 C.E.): “Buddhist Yoga” translated by Thomas Cleary, pages 44-46
Attentively meditate on the inner stream of the meditating consciousness...Continually focus attention on meditation on the uninterrupted mind, the mind that focuses on images. (this is called shamatha) Meditate on the one-pointedness of mind... This means realizing that images concentrated on are only consciousness; or realizing this, to meditate on suchness. (this is called the union of shamatha and vipashyana, calm-abiding and insight)
Bodhidharma, first Chinese Chan ancestor, d. 532 (Treatise on Contemplating Mind): “Zen Dawn” trans. by J.C. Cleary, page 81
Huike (the second ancestor) asked: For those intent on the path of enlightenment, what method should be practiced, what method is most essential and concise? Bodhidharma said: Just contemplate mind – this one method takes in all practices, and is indeed essential and concise.
While Bodhidharma was facing a wall, Huike said: My mind is not yet at peace. Please pacify my mind. Bodhidharma said: Bring me your mind and I will pacify it for you. Huike said: I have looked for my mind and cannot find it. Bodhidharma said: I have pacified your mind for you.
Jianzhi Sengcan, third ancestor, d. 606 (Song of the Trusting Mind): trans. by Richard Clarke, edited by Kokyo Henkel
To return to the root is to find the meaning, but to pursue appearances is to miss the source. At the moment of turning the light of awareness around (henshō), there is going beyond appearance and emptiness. (the first time henshō is used)
Shuangfeng Daoxin, fourth ancestor, 580-651 (Dharma Gate of Calming the Mind to Enter the Way): “Zen Dawn,” page 49
To be mindful of Buddha is to be mindful of mind...With constant mindfulness of Buddha, grasping at objects does not arise...This is the true reality-nature body of the Tathagata...It is also called bodhi, nirvana, prajna. There is no sense of the subject observing and the object observed.
Daman Hongren, fifth ancestor, 601-674 (Treatise on the Supreme Vehicle): “Minding Mind” trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 9
Calm yourself, quiet your senses. Look right into the source of mind, always keeping it shining bright, clear and pure.
Dajian Huineng, sixth ancestor, 617-713 (Platform Sutra): “Sutra of Hui-neng” trans. by Thomas Cleary, pages 13, 52
When you do not think of good and do not think of bad, what is your original face? (At these words, Huiming was greatly enlightened) What I have told you is no secret. If you reflect inwardly (henshō), the secret is in you.
Observe your own original mind; don’t cling to the appearances of external things.
Wang Wei, 699-761 (Retreat at Mt. Chungnan): “Roaring Stream” trans. by Nelson Foster, page 37
I follow the stream to its very source, then sit and watch where the clouds rise.
Shitou Xiqian, 700-790 (Song of the Grass-Roof Hermitage): “Cultivating the Empty Field” trans. by Taigen Leighton, page 58
Turn around the light to shine within (ekō henshō), then just return. The vast, inconceivable source can’t be faced or turned away from...If you want to know the undying person in the hut, don’t separate from this skin bag here & now.(1st time ekō henshō used) Yaoshan Weiyan, 751-834: “Shobogenzo” trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 10
As the Chan Master Yaoshan was sitting, a monk asked: What are you thinking of, so still and intent? Yaoshan said: I am thinking of that which is not thinking. The monk asked: How can one think of that which is not thinking? Yaoshan said: It isn’t thought (nonthinking, beyond thinking).
Linji Yixuan, d. 866: “Zen Teachings of Master Lin-chi” trans. by Burton Watson, page 68
You must right now turn your light around and shine it on yourselves (ekō henshō), not go seeking somewhere else. Then you will understand that in body and mind you are no different from the ancestors and buddhas, and that there is nothing to do.
Guishan Lingyu, 771-854: “Shobogenzo” trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 10, “Five Houses of Zen” trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 27 (ekō henshō on 17) Using the subtlety of thinking without thought, think back to the infinity of the flames of awareness. When thinking comes to an end, return to the source, where essence and characteristics always abide, phenomenon and noumenon are nondual. The real Buddha is suchness as-it-is. (Upon hearing these words, Yangshan realized great awakening)
Yangshan Huiji, 807-883: “Book of Serenity” case 32, trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 140
The thinker is the mind and the thought-of is the environment. Therein are mountains, rivers...and so forth; reverse your thought to think of the thinking mind – are there so many things there?
You people should all turn back your light and reflect (ekō henshō); do not memorize my words. Since beginningless eons you have turned your backs on the light and plunged into darkness; the roots of your false conceptions are deep.
Furong Daokai, 1042-1118: “Timeless Spring” trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 59
When you get here, turn the light around to shine back (ekō henshō), let go your hands and accept it.
Yuanwu Keqin, 1063-1135 (Zen Letters): “Zen Letters” trans. by J.C. and Thomas Cleary, pages 66, 85, 97
The most important thing is for people of great faculties and sharp wisdom to turn the light of mind around and shine back (ekō henshō) and clearly awaken to this mind before a single thought is born.
Go directly to your personal existence in the field of the five aggregates, turn the light around and reflect back (ekō henshō). Your true nature is clear and still and as-it-is – empty through and accept it. When you see clearly this true nature, this true nature is mind, and this mind is true nature... It is called the ever-abiding fundamental source.
Hongzhi Zhengjue, 1091-1157: “Cultivating the Empty Field” trans. by Taigen Leighton, page 16
Take the backward step and directly reach the middle of the circle from where the light issues forth.
Lanxi Daolong, 1213-1279 (Treatise on Sitting Meditation): “The Original Face” trans. by Thomas Cleary, pages 30-31
What is turning the light around and shining back? (ekō henshō) Illuminating outward things, one’s own light is turned back to shine on the inner self...The knowing mind is the light, errant thoughts are shadows; the light illumining things is called shining, and when the mind and thoughts do not range over things but are turned toward the original nature, this is called turning the light around and shining back. It is also called panoramic illumination; illumining the whole of the immediate substance, it is where neither delusion nor enlightenment have ever appeared...The nonproduction of a single thought is what is known as the original essence of mind. It is not stopping thought, yet it is also not not stopping thought; it is just the nonproduction of a single thought. Eihei Dogen, 1200-1253 (Universal Recommendation for Sitting Meditation): “Shobogenzo” trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 9
You should stop the intellectual activity of pursuing words and learn the stepping back of turning the light around and shining back (ekō henshō); body and mind will naturally drop off and the original face will appear...Think of what doesn’t think. How do you think of what doesn’t think? Nonthinking. This is the essential art of sitting meditation.
(Extensive Record): “Dogen’s Extensive Record” trans. by Taigen Leighton and Shohaku Okumura, page 268
Everyone without exception holds on to the jewel that glows in the night... Unless we turn the light around and shine it within (ekō henshō), how can we hold close the jewel when we are lost in the outlying countryside?
(Awesome Presence of Active Buddhas): “Treasury of the True Dharma Eye” trans. by Taigen Leighton & Kazuaki Tanahashi, page 268 Thoroughly practicing, thoroughly clarifying, is not forced. It is just like recognizing the shadow of deluded thought and turning the light around to shine within (ekō henshō). The clarity of clarity beyond clarity prevails in the activity of buddhas. This is totally surrendering to practice. To understand the meaning of totally surrendering, you should thoroughly investigate mind. In the steadfastness of thorough investigation, all phenomena are the unadorned clarity of mind. (also see Dogen’s One Bright Pearl for ekō henshō) Koun Ejo, 1198-1282 (Absorption in the Treasury of Light): “Minding Mind” trans. by Thomas Cleary, page 80
Just cast body and mind into the great treasury of light and don’t look back.
Keizan Jokin, 1268-1325 (Transmission of Light): “Record of Transmitting the Light” trans. by Francis Cook, page 222, 235
When you encounter the skill of a spiritual teacher and not a single thought arises, this is when you see smoke. If you stop here and rest, it is like stopping at warmth; but if you continue on, you will see fire. This means knowing the One who does not give rise to a single thought... It is called the indestructible hidden body; that body is empty and bright.
Learning the Way is said to be apart from mind, thought, and consciousness. These must not be thought of as body and mind. There is still a wonderful brightness that is eternally unmoving. If you look carefully, you will certainly reach it. If you are able to clarify this Mind, no body and mind can be found; no self and others can be involved. Therefore it is said, “Drop off body and mind.”... When you look, nothing is there.
Pojo Chinul, 1158-1210 (Complete Sudden Attainment of Buddhahood): “Selected Works of Chinul” trans. by Robert Buswell, page 268 Now I aim solely to induce ordinary people of great aspiration to look back on the radiance (henshō) of the one true Dharma-realm which is their own mind’s fundamental wisdom of universal brightness. They will then be able to awaken to the fact that, although the names of the Buddhas in the ten directions are different...these are the form and functioning of their minds’ wisdom of universal brightness; they are not external things.
Yondam Yuil, 1720-1799: “Selected Works of Chinul” trans. by Robert Buswell, page 63
To trace the radiance back (henshō) means to trace the radiance back to the numinous awareness of one’s own mind. It is like seeing the radiance of the sun’s rays and following it back until you see the orb of the sun itself.
Secret of the Golden Flower, attributed to Taoist Master Lu Yan (d.798): trans. by Thomas Cleary, pages 18, 19, 21, 37
Turning the light around (ekō) is not turning around the light of one body, but turning around the very energy of creation. It is not stopping random imagination only temporarily; it is truly emptying routine compulsion for all time.
The light is neither inside or outside the self. Mountains, rivers sun, moon and the whole earth are all this light, so it is not only in the self. All the operations of intelligence, knowledge and wisdom are also this light, so it is not outside the self. The light of heaven and earth fills the universe; the light of one individual also naturally extends through the heavens and covers the earth. Therefore, once you turn the light around, everything in the world is turned around.
The turning around is “stopping” (shamatha); the light is “seeing” (vipashyana). Stopping without seeing is called turning around without light. Seeing without stopping is called having light without turning it around. Remember this.
If you can look back again and again into the source of mind, whatever you are doing, not sticking to any image of person or self at all, then this is turning the light around wherever you are. This is the finest practice.
Tilopa, 988-1069 (Pith Instructions to Naropa on Mahamudra): “Straight from the Heart” trans. by Karl Brunnholzl, page 96
When you look at the center of the sky, seeing will cease. Likewise, when mind looks at mind, the swarms of thoughts cease and unsurpassable enlightenment is attained.
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, 1512-1587 (Clarifying the Natural State): “Clarifying the Natural State” trans. by Erik Pema Kunsang, page 27
While in the state of lucid and thought-free calm-abiding, look directly into your conscious mind. It is a wakefulness for which no words suffice. It is not a definable entity, but at the same time, it is a self-knowing aware emptiness that is clear, lucid and awake. Sustain this without distraction... This is what is given many names, such as buddha-nature, nature of mind, nonarising dharmakaya, basic natural state, innate mind, original wakefulness, and mahamudra.
Jamgon Mipham, 1846-1912 (Lamp that Dispels Darkness): “Perfect Clarity” trans. by Erik Pema Kunsang, page 27
When your mind experiences a vacant state, which lacks both thought and mental activity, look naturally into the one who notices this state, the one who is not thinking. When you do so, there is a thought-free knowing (rigpa) that is totally open, free from inside and outside, like a clear sky. This knowing is not a duality of that experienced and that experiencing, but you can resolve that it is your own nature and feel the conviction that “it is no other than this.”

It’s obvious that this term has been in wide usage throughout eastern spirituality, that’s not to say that this is what the golden flower is referring to though. The internal alchemy side of golden flower seems distinct from any awareness based practice, it’s purifying and merging, circulating, etc. It does seem much more bodily focussed, yet it does also seem to incorporate awareness to guide the process, to shed light on the process. Obviously one must utilise their internal sensations to conduct the process, which requires one to direct awareness into the body. The golden pill supposedly is formed in the body, but then must be finally brought back to the source to be ingested, or merged back into awareness so the inner child can be “born”.

 

It seems light has long been associated with awareness, so SotGF would be a deviation from this traditional usage. What is interesting is, apparently the Chinese characters for golden and flower, when placed on top of one another, make together the symbol for light between them. I can’t confirm this as I can’t read such characters, but supposedly these kind of hidden meanings pervade much of the text. So maybe the actual secret is the secret of light, or maybe inner light.

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

That was actually a question and not a hidden statement. 

I was considering reading it, but would prefer a recommended translation. 

Okay, as I said, I like Cleary’s, going to give Jung and Wilhelm another go though, but I seem to remember it being a bit clunkier.

1 hour ago, steve said:

@thelerner

@Spaceofawareness

 

Done - let me know if any problems or questions

Thanks guys 

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Did you notice the reference to the dragon and tiger? 

 

I read somewhere that the golden flower is mainly on the Xing level. Now, I haven't read it in decades and haven't studied it as a part of a formal practice at all, but if I could speculate a bit; could it be so that the text is more useful after a practitioner have some proficiency in the Ming practices? 

 

In my view, that might clarify things. 

 

Btw, is Clearys translation the best option in english? 

Honestly not sure, Cleary talks himself up compared to Jung and Wilhelm. What would you suggest?

 

I found it clearer than the Jung version, and without his aspects of the shadow being reflected in it, though I am probably partial to it due to it resonating with the more Xing related elements in my background. Though it seems much of the neidan is focussed on Ming aspects, I have also heard that the two are intertwined, or at least, work together and maybe lead to each other.

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Turning the light around is done not by the eyes but by the mind; the mind is the eyes. After long persistence, the spirit congeals; only then do you see the mind-eyes become clear.
When you observe mind and become aware of openness, thereby you produce its vitality. When its virality srabi- lizes, it becomes manifest, and then you see the opening of the mysterious pass.
Gazing at the lower abdomen is external work. As for the inner work, when the mind-eye comes into being, that alone is the true "elixir field."
The light you see before your eyes is rat-light, not. the light of the tiger-eye or dragon-vitality. The light of mind does not belong to inside Or outside; if you look to see it with the physical eyes, that is bedevilment.

From GF Cleary version, questions and answers section, pg 66.

 

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The mind is the eyes

. This reminds me more of awareness, we have an inner eye, that is one way I conceptualise awareness. 

 

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As for the inner work, when the mind-eye comes into being, that alone is the true "elixir field."

The elixir field. So it seems what this elixir is made of, is within awareness, or the mind’s eye, or is made OF awareness. Or maybe, by field, they mean the daoist usage of the term field, which refers to the ground of potential which contains everything required. So the elixir might not actually be just awareness, yet awareness or the mind’s eye is one ingredient, tool, or part, which is somehow manipulate, circulated, etc.

 

when you can’t even trust the text it makes it is hard to interpret this stuff. But, surely what rings true, that which resonates with you, should be trusted and followed. 

 

There is just too much in the way of like freeform said, the inclusion of awareness based influences of thought, to just pass off as tampering. Yet, do we think maybe interventions and changes have been made to the text to the point where the main line has been altered beyond repair? 

 

Why include these awareness focussed references, throughout the text, if they aren’t essential to the practice? Just an attempt to change systems of spiritual influence?

 

 

 

 

You feel like an observer of your thoughts? I remember about a year about when I had what could be called an awakening, the way I characterised it was, I had become the observer, which was distinct from the “narrator” (my words) which I could observe.

 

It was more just the realisation of this. I had never really had an invasive inner voice, as some people do, like my wife, as she has told me, she is CONSTANTLY talking to herself. Yet now over a year later, the narrator seems to have almost vanished. For me, this hasn’t been a problem, due to it being closer to my nature. I can obviously still form thoughts, both internally and externally, but, I am very rarely dogged by them. I notice them when they arise, though not quite as quickly as when it first began.

 

But it seems like you have a fondness for this inner voice which you have lost a connection with. 

 

It seems by your description that it was very much linked to your imagination.

 

I used to have imaginary conversations, re-run scenarios in my head, even create non existent scenarios between myself and people in my life. It was less narration and more like a slide show with subtitles. But I would get lost in the imaginings, not always in a good way. It would sometimes affect my mood, and my relationships to people to which the imaginings were about. The mind is always wanting to know what is going to happen, trying to stay 1, 2, 10 steps ahead, and does this by literally projecting into possible futures. This can only happen when you are not present. You imagination “runs away”.

 

So, on the one hand, you may have lost this connection to the inner voice which you have such fond memories of, yet, there must also be benefits to this.

 

11 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Actually not a long term practitioner of GF specifically. I only started with that line of work in the last 2yrs. I prefer not to talk about spiritual stuff I'm working on. It's a subtle process - and not to be shared with others (at least that's how I feel about it at the moment).

 

Here's a thread where I go into the results of another (more foundational process):

 

It's spread over several posts as people asked questions...

Just read through that thread above re MCO. Coming at this from a complete newbie to internal alchemy, qigong, or any kind of qi exercises, where would you suggest I start, I don’t necessarily have the ability to see a teacher in person at least for the next few years, due to family commitments, however, I do most of my practices while I work, which sounds unlikely, however I have found ways to integrate training into my work schedule due to its repetitive nature, which allows me a freedom of awareness.

 

i know this stuff needs to be done while sitting, in a meditative setting, so I do have time in the evenings, though I have found meditation difficult at these hours due to falling into oblivion, which is why I have gravitated towards a more life integrated approach.

 

i would appreciate your experience in these matters, is there any way a person can guide themselves in these practices with videos or text, or is it so esoteric and individual that a teacher is a must? I consider myself a fairly intuitive person, however my mind body connection isn’t as strong as it could be, I feel like that might be a good place to start. Any ideas? Thanks.

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Actually not a long term practitioner of GF specifically. I only started with that line of work in the last 2yrs. I prefer not to talk about spiritual stuff I'm working on. It's a subtle process - and not to be shared with others (at least that's how I feel about it at the moment).

 

Here's a thread where I go into the results of another (more foundational process):

 

It's spread over several posts as people asked questions...

Of course I respect your privacy on this matter, I come at this purely as a seeker. Thanks, I have heard of the mco, though I’m not sure I fully grasp it.

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

No - this isn’t risky in the same way as kundalini. You don’t need kundalini as a prerequisite - but you do need several other internal conditions for it to work. 
 

GF is an advanced practice. Not advanced coz it’s hard or complicated or extra powerful. It’s advanced in the sense that you need to have achieved certain preconditions for it to actually work.

 

The preconditions are ‘building the foundation’ (the result of Neigong practice) and various Xin Fa (mind development methods) as well as the ability to sit in unwavering stillness (both body and mind)... This is sufficient to start the practice. However it works most effectively when you’re able to enter meditation (samadhi) and the inner light starts to manifest automatically for you.

 

Id estimate around 5 to 10yrs of dedicated practice to achieve the preconditions necessary.

 

These arts always build one thing on another... 

 

As modern people we think in reductionistic ways which means we like to isolate elements and look at them out of context (like the guy in the gym who does leg day and chest day - instead of treating his body as a whole)

 

But these arts are very context dependent. People in the past would not have access to classical texts without someone knowledgeable introducing them to it. This introduction usually happened in a teacher-student relationship - and only when the student was ready to receive it (just like you wouldn’t teach quantum mechanics to school kid who just started learning physics).

Okay. 

 

As a long term practitioner of the golden flower method, can you share insights, developments, thoughts, feelings, gleanings etc? Where has this work taken you? What has it achieved for you? 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Interpretations of interpretations I'm afraid.

 

With interpretations, people can only use their prior knowledge and experience to generate their interpretation... In this case it's understanding of Buddhist methods.

 

 

 

Yes - your impression is spot on. The GF deals with a similar 'level' as shakti... it's dealing with a form of Shen Light - a kind of divine light... but it's not stimulating the shakti force at the base of the spine... it's generating light at the centre of the central channel - then working with it in some specific ways.

So in your opinion, does this working with inner light come with the same risks as kundalini type of work? Is kundalini awakening or experience necessary to do this neidan inner light work?

What I don’t understand though, is much of the golden flower text actually mentions mindfulness, and thus the application of awareness to the mind.

 

specific parts talk of “stopping and seeing” which quite obviously refer to the process of interrupting awareness from distraction and observing a distraction, unless my interpretation is way off. 
 

it’s pretty clear at least some part of GF is aimed at awareness practices, yet it also has the neidan side which you both mentioned. 
 

Yet it doesn’t specifically differentiate the two practices, even though they seem rather distinct, at least to me, though I know little of neidan directly.

 

Not sure if it was intentional to make this vague on the part of the author, or maybe the text has been meddled with over time.

 

here is an excerpt from chapter 3:

 

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17. Stopping and observing (止观) is a Buddhist method that originally was not secret. One looks attentively with both eyes at the tip of the nose, sits upright in a comfortable position, and focuses the heart around the center, which is also called the Yellow Middle in Taoism. It not necessarily means the center of the head. It is only a matter of fixing one's attention on the point which lies between the two eyes. Light is something extremely volatile. When one fixes the attention on the mid-point between the two eyes, the light naturally enters. One doesn`t need to direct the attention to the middle castle. These few words include all essential points. As for the rest, matters of entering and exiting stillness, the prelude and the aftermath, one can check the book Small Stopping and Observing for a reference.                    

18. Focusing around the center is a very subtle expression. The center is omnipresent; the whole universe is contained in it. This indicates the crucial point of Creation, and through this one enters the gate. One takes focusing as a hint, so that one doesn`t become rigidly fixed. This expression is alive and subtle.  

19. Stopping and observing are inseparable; they mean concentration and insight. When thoughts arise, you don't need to sit still as before, but you should investigate this thought: where is it? Where does it come from? Where does it go? Repeat this inquiry until you realize it cannot be grasped, then you will see where thoughts arise. After that you don`t need to seek out the point of arising any more. Having looked for my mind, I realize it cannot be grasped; I have pacified your mind for you.

20. This is right observation. What opposes this is incorrect. Once one realizes it cannot be grasped, one keeps practicing stopping followed by observing and keeps practicing observing followed by stopping. This is the double cultivation of  stopping and observing. This is turning the light around. The turning around is stopping, the light is observing. Stopping without observing is called turning around without light; observing without stopping is called having the light without turning it around. Remember this.

It seems there are at least two interpretations of what turning the light around is focussed on in the GF.

6 hours ago, Creation said:

Hi @Spaceofawareness,

 

The reversal of ordinary awareness to it's source, the what you could call the space of awareness, is something that is done in paths that focus on sudden awakening to what is variously called the nature of mind, nature of consciousness, or the nature of self.  For instance, Dzogchen, Zen, and Mahamudra. 

 

It would seem that this is not actually what The Secret of the Golden Flower is talking about, although the connection is very tempting to make if you are familiar with one of these paths and come across SotGF.  The light referred to in SotGF is more like the light of the nimitta in Theravada Buddhism, and the light seen in the third eye in Samadhi-oriented Yoga traditions such as Kriya Yoga.  There is also some information out there that says SotGF is a way to awaken kundalini.  freeform can speak with (much) more authority about this than I can, but the impression I get is that part of the Daoist path that deals with kundalini awakening is not the same as the part that SotGF is describing. 

Thanks Creation, 

 

after delving further into this text and topic, it seems to be more clear to me that you are correct, though Thomas Cleary’s interpretation of GF seems more inline with an awareness interpretation, yet the unknown and more esoteric parts of the text still seem to allude to that which you mention.

On 07/12/2020 at 6:52 PM, helpfuldemon said:

Personally, just by virtue of the definition- consciousness means to be aware, and if its not through senses- then what?  Being unconscious doesn't sound like consciousness to me.  What is eternal about not being aware?

Awareness can know itself, but only like a shadow of itself, never knowing directly, because awareness has no characteristics, anything that can be seen is not it, it is what sees. But it can be felt as a presence of self. Normally, we aren’t aware of ourselves, only of the world, but awareness can “feel” itself, which is how it knows itself. 

 

It is a naturally pleasant state, calm, peaceful, and yet completely alert of the world. If you can watch yourself always, you will be it.

22 hours ago, freeform said:

Without meaning to sound harsh or critical (I'm aiming for 'helpful' instead )

 

 

Interpretations of classical methods won't get you far.

 

There's a very unambiguous oral tradition that explains exactly how to achieve the milestones talked about. (Wang Liping teaches it - it's one of the core aspects of several Longmen Pai (and in fact Shangqing) traditions.)

 

Despite how it appears - it's very unambiguous...

 

For instance when the light appears - it's not in the least bit subtle or vague - it's a brilliant, almost painfully bright light. Although it's talked about vaguely in texts - which invites interpretation... these texts were designed as handbooks for students already going through the process with a teacher.

 

If this is really fascinating for you (as it is for me!) - I would suggest trying to find a genuine teacher that can teach the method and theory... Wang Liping and his student Nathan Brine are a great start

Not at all.

 

GF talks of the “celestial eye” which I think is actually what I am describing. But it seems that is just the starting point. So what I mention is just the basis of what this Neidan work talks about. I don’t actually know anything firsthand about neidan. Maybe I am just not there yet.

 

But what I speak of does seem to be part of GF.

 

I have stumbled across Nathan Brine, still evaluating whether it’s all bs or something there.

 

i come at this from a skeptics POV, unfortunately it’s just a perspective I have to work from. I assume something which sounds ridiculous is, unless I experience otherwise. Yet at the same time, I am open to new things. I am open to discovering this new world of neidan. I place the burden squarely on myself to discover any truth in claims.

 

Most people wouldn’t even believe what I have discovered about the nature of reality, so I also realise my view is an extreme or not normal one, yet it seems there is much more to discover potentially.

On 09/12/2020 at 9:49 PM, freeform said:

 

Both 'the light' and the 'turning around of the light' are much more subtle than what's been mentioned above.

 

There's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding of the GF method - largely because the classical texts describe certain manifestations and principles - but not the methodology. The methodology is only ever taught directly by a teacher to a disciple. Any methodology in books is largely guesswork.

 

There are a lot of prerequisites before the GF method becomes possible. It's a pretty advanced practice...

 

The light being talked about is the light of Shen Ming - it's the light of your original spirit - it appears only at certain levels of meditation. It becomes apparent at the Jhana level of inner absorption - so beyond the stillness of samadhi...

 

So samadhi and jhana are a major prerequisite... without these, it's all just imagination. This is further confounded because what people think samadhi and jhana are is not right either... Often people confuse calmness and euphoria for these.

 

The light isn't the after-image behind the eyelids

 

The light isn't simply awareness.

 

The turning around is a fundamental shift in how your primordial spirit manifests into the earthly realm (our physical world).

 

It's possible to practice in an awareness-only approach, but this is only for the very gifted who naturally generate a huge amount of qi and have a natural ability to concentrate and absorb... One in a billion type of person.

 

For the rest of us there's about a decade of preliminary work to be done before we get to GF

I think it depends on the person and how active their mind is, and how identified as ego they are. For a person deeply identified, it might take a lifetime, for a more reflective person, maybe the 100days mentioned in the text is time enough with consistent practice.

 

If your effort is like water, acting only via the natural forces which move it, yet always returning to the most neutral place, it shouldn’t take a lifetime to realise, but consistency and the continual returning I would imagine are of utmost importance to stabilisation.

 

My basic understanding of the golden flower method is the discovery of your true nature as the space of awareness and the moving into this space and realisation of your nature as this space.

 

but first one needs to realise or notice this space before they can even move into it, Which is why the light must be turned around because the space will never be noticed outside of Oneself.

On 07/12/2020 at 3:12 AM, Nintendao said:

 

To swim up stream takes some effort, but to reverse the flow of the entire river, takes way more and is likely to mess up. To return to light ( 回光 ) just close your eyes. Literally look at the light that is still there. Usually some afterimage hovers there, especially if you were looking at a light bulb for example. That will fade away in a minute though. Then you can see the actual glow that's hidden inside of you. Usually so much light is coming into the eye from outside ☲, but the retina might also be stimulated by electrochemical actions in nearby nerves and other living tissues ☵, particularly the prefrontal cortex. So now you have reversed the light. Don't try to force its movement or intensity. Just watch. Establish the physical sensation of ease and alignment that naturally arises, as when looking at clouds drifting in the sky. This state, once familiar, can be engaged with or without closing the eyes. After about 10,000 hours accumulatively of practicing in this way, or so I've heard, the rest of the mystery is as easy to understand as obtaining a ripened fruit from the branch.

That’s very interesting. I haven’t heard of that method.

 

Just to clarify, when I say the light was turned around, I don’t refer to light appearing inside visually, but rather the light refers to awareness itself, and the turning around refers to instead of awareness being constantly directed outwardly, it becomes looped back on itself, through paying attention to things like the breath, thoughts, etc. after a while, it has a sense of itself, then, this sense of self seems to detach from the sense of normal identity with the body and thoughts, so that they become more as objects without any real meaning, the world seems to be dream like. A spacious detached awareness seems to unfold, and a constant sense of presence of awareness, like a shadow hanging there always, which seems to be awareness feeding back onto itself. 

 

This is is how I understand turning the light around, though it is my interpretation. I have seen other interpretations leaning more towards the microcosmic orbit, of flowing energies, etc. I have no experience with these kind of sensations or practice, my interpretation is purely awareness based.

 

The further methods describing golden elixirs and practices to achieve immortality seem very esoteric and likely unless one learns directly from someone initiated in the practice you are bound to go down the wrong path. What the aim actually is, I am not sure, the extension of life, and longevity, improved health etc.

 

I’m currently reading a book called “Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard” by Kaiguo, Chen, which goes into the Taoist teachings of the dragon’s gate school of complete reality, which the golden flower was supposedly based on. Some of the practices and claims of attainment are pretty extraordinary, likely much of it embellished, but it’s a fun read. I just want to get to the bottom of this internal alchemy thing, what exactly is possible, what’s fantasy, and what one should be aiming for.

 

 

Has anyone had much luck actually engaging this reversal process of awareness through deliberate practice? I know for myself, I stumbled upon it, it simply happened, and it was almost as though I instinctively knew or was being pulled towards this reversing, yet when it eventually went after some months, no amount of deliberate attempts to turn the light around seem to engage the correct method of relaxing back into the reversal.

 

It seems like it must be an organic, non deliberate process, which subverts the intentional modes of being.

14 hours ago, Cleansox said:

You will find some interpretations of this stuff in Damo Mitchell's book White moon on the mountain peak. 

You will also find that there is some disagreement between traditions on how these classics should be interpreted. 

Thanks, I will look into that one.

 

So is there a general consensus on the interpretation of what the GF is trying to achieve? Is it purely an internal awareness practice, rather than the energetic practice like the Wilhelm/Jung interpretation seemed to imply? To me it seems to imply more awareness focus rather than chi related. Especially the call to ‘turn the light around’.

Does anyone have much knowledge about the descriptions of internal alchemical symbolism in GF, such as the firing process? Much of it reminds me of the ‘book of balance and harmony’, which goes into much detail but is a little too symbolic and above my ability to decode into practical advice.

Thanks thelerner,

 

I hope to soak up the residual wisdom from this place and members, and maybe in kind give back at some stage.

 

 

Hello all,

 

I’m very glad to have found an online community which seems to share some of the ideas, practices, and essential experiences which I have been having over the last year or so.

 

My story begins with me searching for a way to be comfortable with seemingly meaningless work. My job is one which is repetitive and physical, however also rather complex. It requires a high degree of precision. Yet over the years I have mastered it, to the point where “I” no longer need to be in charge. The work does itself. You could say this already reflects a reversed version of the Taoist way of “action through non-action”.

 

So while it might seem a good thing to be free of needing to act, this leaves one with a lot of time to think, something which I wasn’t comfortable with. My mind would run off on long and sometimes chaotic lines of thought, often into paranoia. This was due to an inability to just be, even while I was doing something, like working. So I turned to distraction. First it was music, but, after that was exhausted for novelty, i turned to podcasts. This kept my mind occupied while my body worked. I was (and still do sometime) learning and jumping down long rabbit holes of thought, discussions, etc. while this managed to calm the mind, unfortunately my interests became more crystallised, and there is only so much content one can find on a particular thing before it’s exhausted.

 

i was consuming these podcasts in a very western obsessive manner. When the pool was exhausted, I was back to my paranoid craving mind, which was sometimes unbearable.

 

I listen to these podcasts on wireless headphones, to avoid wires getting tangled while I work. But, sometimes they may run out of charge, or fall out, leaving me interrupting my work process in order to fix the problem.

 

i noticed this in myself, and saw it as an issue. So, I decided to defy my mind’s need for this consumptive habit, and one day, simply stopped listening. But, instead of being lost in thought, I was focusing on what I was doing, but not like I was doing it, because I had already formed these automatic behaviours which allowed me to be an “observer”.

 

So as I observed myself working, I would simply watch the movements being performed, the sensations of the movements. The sensation of the movements of the limbs in space, making contact with the objects in the world. All the while i would also be aware of my breath. I had done one session of mindfulness prior, and found it to be useful for quieting my mind. 

 

As this was happening, I noticed I felt more “present”, and my mind wasn’t wandering as much. But, I also noticed when my mind did start to go off on its tangents, “I” could observe it, but it felt different this time, not so much like “I” was thinking those thoughts, but more like they were appearing, and I was becoming aware of them. 

 

As this happened a few times, slowly I felt a change and an opening up of awareness. But awareness also had some kind of sensation of itself. I began to rest in this state of self knowing awareness. While working, I would be observing the world, the body, the thoughts, but all the while, feeling like this observer of everything, aware of itself. This followed into driving between jobs, driving behaviour happened with little mental help (thanks to  GPS). It seemed my awareness was separating from sensations, almost like the sensations were in another bubble on the surface of me, this bubble of awareness. There seemed to be some kind of boundary which was forming between awareness and sensations and thoughts. 

 

There were times of great peace, contentment, and, inherent meaningfulness. Nothing else needed to be happening. I had previously struggled with the meaninglessness of doing the same thing over and over for years. But now, it seemed infinitely worthwhile, simply to be there in the moment.

 

This carried on for months. I noticed I could observe bad habits and seemingly with this focusing of awareness, squash them as they arose, or sometimes, before. The same was possible with negative emotions, or even negative reactions to pain. The light of awareness seemed to overcome any negativity. 

 

As this process unfolded, I also noticed I was becoming more and more detached from the world. Not through resistance, but due to the quieting of the egoic tendency to reach out in the world. It felt like to remain as this awareness, the ego had to be shut down. 

 

This became a problem, as, being part of the world, one must also interact with the world to remain in balance. 

 

I my mind inherently knew this, because I began to struggle to remain in this awareness after a few months, some days would be clearer than others, the ego seemed to be merging back with awareness, but, as this happened, awareness was no longer pure, and would get lost in the trials and tribulations of the ego and its reactive tendencies.

 

After a while, I no longer felt I was this pure light of awareness, and felt like I was back where I started. But, the difference being, the awareness still feels like it’s there in the background, but I appear in it, along with the ego and everything else. As such everything is watched, but, when I look for the sense of being here, all there is is that awareness, with no sense of presence, compared to before it felt very close, then when detached it felt like I was this awareness.

 

This brought me to a Taoist text which I stumbled across, the secret of the golden flower. It seemed to be speaking to my experience somehow, especially the call to “turn the light around”. This was what it felt like when awareness had this sense of presence, like it could somehow know itself at all times, yet not phenomenally. It was never an act of effort, but always a relaxing back into what was already here, a zooming out of a kind.

 

It felt like home.

 

So now I find myself knowing the light, wanting to turn it back around, but I feel there are forces which want to unfold in another way first, a kind of transcending and including. The transcendence occurred, which gave a view of the world and the ego and body, but now, it feels like I need to reintegrate all of that back into this awareness.

 

So, after searching different practices and spiritual traditions, I find myself lead to Taoism, which seems to inherently contain this transformational and inclusive practice at its essence. I seek to know more and to understand the way this organism is seeking to unfold and flower.

 

Thats my story, I look forward to learning from you all and interacting.

 

peace.