Patrick Brown

OK, morning here, second cup of coffee so I'll give this a shot. Karma tends to be overly conceptualised and this, to my mind, only muddies the waters which again might be why Taoism leaves the concept out (that's philosophical Taoism). So the Jain view is that karma is a form of finer and finer graduations of matter which Theosophy happened to take onboard. Now as we're trying to keep this simple, so as not to muddies the waters, we must consider the idea of washing our garments / vehicles / bodies. So say we have physical, emotional and mental bodies, we'll leave the causal body out for now, it makes sense that the process of cleaning must start at the bottom i.e. Physical body / level. Now we're all aware how physical addictions effect our moods i.e emotions. So by cleaning our physical body we will gain greater control over our emotions and this tempering of emotional activity in turn allows for greater clarity of thinking. Once we begin to realise that actions which stem from desire are causing us to suffer these desires, our karma, will fall away. So what happens at the mental level? Well this is where we bring the causal body in to play. Our mind is constantly drawing distinctions between this and that and judging something as being good or bad, right or wrong. As we begin to dissolve our erroneous view of "apparent reality" we relinquish mental concepts and move towards a more abstract view of reality. Now I'll stop here as words are no longer valid. Now this is where Taoism comes in, at least for me, as it reminds us that action should come from a spontaneous natural response rather than from any conceptualised predispositions. Or put another way we are predisposed to error because the physical, emotional and mental aspects of our being are muddied and in a state of confusion. Instead of seeing something as right or wrong we should simply flow without mind and judgement. So to sum up we must clean ourselves, cleanse our vision and rediscover our true nature as spontaneous beings without judgments. There is no good or bad karma as this view is simply a trap. There is only karma and the less karma you have the smoother you flow until you reach the ocean and become the flow. I don't think Taoism is referring to karma it's just pointing out our error and how we should act to release ourselves from this error. Taoism shows us how we polarise and then shows us the flow, that's all. Indeed it is all!

If you've seen this film what did you think?

I think I agree but am not that familiar with with the inner chapters but I do think sometimes that which is left unsaid might be the real key! My insights into Tibetan Buddhism, and derived from, are more abstract than conceptual and I see this also in Lao Tze proses. steve: I'm tired and drunk but will try and get back to you on this with some degree of coherence. I think we might both be right but we need to see what we are really doing before there's any conclusion.

Yes it was beautiful and perhaps that was what it was all about?

PMSL

I think you might be wrong there as I'm pretty sure Jainism, born of Hinduism and strongly related to Buddhism, sees karma as a finer graduation of matter that we build into ourselves as well as attract. Actions, as we know can often be misread but what you are physically, emotionally and mentally is what you are and is you karma.

LOL Yes I could do that but I like to travel lite so I'm dammed if I can remember much of the stuff I learned in my twenties. I always remember Plato's cave though! *shivers* Maybe I'm a Plataoist?

Tis better to be legless, than follow da carrot all your life! Oh no! You see all that complexity is NOT what it's about. Yes Tibetan Buddhism has/had the same cancer i.e. Tons of shit that unenlightened monks write/wrote because they were bored and full of self importance. It's simple but people are such ego driven arseholes! Alchemy my arse!

Yes even though I stated Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism dovetail nicely for me you're right to point out that they are distinct and separate. I don't have a problem with their distinctness because they work for me. Buddhism lead to my realisation, insight whatever you wish to call it and Taoism reminds me of the way. I haven't discarded Buddhism because it keeps me awake, as it were, especially the imagery. Also having a reasonable grasp of many of the concepts of Buddhism means I have something to offer to others that may be struggling. I'm probably more hippie in my Taoist views/ways but alas I missed the orgies, I really shouldn't be so lazy! And again I agree that philosophical Taoism should indeed be defended although I'm not that familiar with the inner chapters I've always stated that the TTC is the core of Taoism and much if not all of the mystic stuff claiming to be Taoist is balls! But hey if people want to engage in promiscuous sex that's their choice. All the cultivating powers stuff gets on my tits as well. Taoism is the most accessible and simple system around and that's it's strength. A few simple texts and a spot of Tai Chi and bobs your uncle! Hmm yeah I need to get back into my Tai Chi but as said I'm rather lazy and it's tricky to get motivated when you looking after an elderly mother as I am.

The tune was "everything but the girl: before today". Yeah that country specific stuff gets on my nerves. Here's the live version which might play although not as good as the album version: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_psfGyfYFk4

There's the old saying about baby and bathwater and in the context of this bend in the road I don't think there's anything wrong with throwing out ideas but never never throw out open mindedness! I've often heard it said that perhaps the Taoist masters just chose to leave karma and reincarnation out for some specific reason. So what might that reason be? It takes the student out of the now or perhaps karma and reincarnation are only relative truths so distract from the deeper truth? As I've said before perhaps what isn't said is the more profound teaching one might even say esoteric! God that was hard work writing that as my brain is currently Swiss cheese!

You'll miss the bass if you're listening on a laptop: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tfcd1rNBQ3c

OH MY! http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uBD9EoMHSyA

We're all limited to a greater or lesser extent but what often annoys me is that most people allow themselves to be herded and dictated to. I periodically drop all my assumptions and return to beginners-mind yet after a short while end up pretty much back in the same place I started from. Most people live in a perpetual haze which is why the world is going down the pan! People are moaning about the global recession like spoilt brats. They don't need to have holidays abroad or buy a new car and hoard all the crap that consumerism tells them they need. They are digging their own grave and are oblivious to the final outcome. Yeah breed, do as your told, work for the beast of vanity and greed and then die without ever really living! So getting back to religion, I think it's just a control mechanism forcing people to conform so as to build a society based upon ignorance. As I keep saying, Taoism is about non-attachment and that includes Taoism itself. You'll find many people are part of a religion purely for financial gain or because they can easily manipulate the vulnerable! So what can we do? I don't think we can do anything other than be true to ourselves yet people love a lie because it's the easy option. LOL How ironic can you get?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEmhhJuMXR0

More good stuff here: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=HDykXpBiIr0

LOL! This is the thing about TTB's I love, yes Manitou's post was beautiful and enticing, even erudite, but: Well he left out the drunken fools and the piss-artists and the many people I have met in my life who are really rather beautiful even with all their flaws. I really loved the thing about the twisted circle (!), pretty sure I've used that one before, but hey non-attachment and that includes ideas and concepts. I have mentioned the "two truths" of Tibetan Buddhism before and it's easy to find on Goodle if you need to read it. No I will do whatever I like as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. Even the very highest realise, well one would hope, that we are all looking after number one. Yes we will do everything in our power to help those in need who appear on our path but the thread of ego remains, as it must and as it only can be. Now lets get pissed, or not, but at least sing:

Very educational. Thanks for the clarity.

"Twenty Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles. Is there a difference between yes and no? Is there a difference between good and evil? Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense! Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox. In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace, But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am. Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, I am alone, without a place to go. Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing. I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused. Others are clear and bright, But I alone am dim and weak. Others are sharp and clever, But I alone am dull and stupid. Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, Without direction, like the restless wind. Everyone else is busy, But I alone am aimless and depressed. I am different. I am nourished by the great mother." Yes I try but often forget although I am getting better! "Seventy-one Knowing ignorance is strength. Ignoring knowledge is sickness. If one is sick of sickness, then one is not sick. The sage is not sick because he is sick of sickness. Therefore he is not sick."

Source: http://en.wikipedia....Truths_Doctrine

As an afterthought I think the main reason Taoism doesn't mention enlightenment is because it's seen as an unfolding without end. So whereas other systems often suggest that enlightenment is a flash of insight or a sudden realisation Taoism sees it as an integral part of the journey. I don't think Buddhists would have a problem with this idea as they talk about realising our innate Buddha nature. Having said that perhaps without the idea of something to be realised / awakened people would just live there life as a monotone and never be truly fulfilled? Perhaps this is what's missing from the TTC?