MetaDao

Jing to Qi refers to the refinement of the dense(lower frequency) state of Jing to the more subtle(higher frequency) state of Qi. It is not a direct conversion in the sense that you lose the properties of the Jing. In other words, you don't lose all the aspects included within the Jing, like vitality. In fact, your overall health greatly improves.

Jing to Qi refinement simply means that you upgrade or refine the energy you have to a higher frequency. They are the same substance in different states. Ice and water. When an ice cube melts into water, do you lose any of the substance? No. If you refreeze that melted water under optimal conditions, it would form the same sized ice cube.

Again, I think its necessary to clarify whether you are referring to the post-heaven Jing to Qi Refinement. I am aware you're a fan of Damo. His system talks of  "stilling" the post-heaven jing before melting the post-heaven Jing to post-heaven Qi, changing the physiology of the body in the process. This, to me, is Neigong because it is a post-heaven internal process aimed at preparing the body for pre-heaven processes.

Errors. The most common error for men, and the hardest obstacle to overcome is desire. You can have the best methods in existence, but if you cannot conquer desire, the Jing to Qi refinement will not occur in the correct manner. The most common obstacle in general  is diet. After that, consistent daily practice combined with overcoming desire and eating correctly. Besides the errors in the practice itself, those are the main obstacles.

There may in fact be truth to the fact that alchemical sex practices exist, but they serve particular purposes in the process. You can't change the fact that desire leads to loss of Yuan Jing. Some loss is okay if there is a purpose behind it.

Again, all of that process I described is the refinement of post-heaven jing to post-heaven qi. The refinement of pre-heaven Jing is where you move into Neidan.

First off, before you do any refinement, you replenish the pre-heaven Jing. This has many purposes, but I won't list them here. Only once the Yuan Jing has reached its peak capacity does it get refined. Once you refine the Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi, your physiology changes. Certain channels are opened, and certain ones are closed, resulting in a change in our desires. There isn't a constant battle of actively suppressing desire anymore. This is because the channel responsible for sexual desire closes off. Rather than converting to post-heaven Jing, the pre-heaven Jing, for the most-part, converts to pre-heaven Qi. You still have enough post-heaven Jing, but there is no wastage.

Errors and obstacles are the same as they are for the Neigong process. The Neidan process is just deeper and more involved. There are many similarities between the two processes as both are dealing with the refinement of Jing to Qi. However, the conversion of Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi is a much deeper and more involved process with greater benefits.

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

"內丹術是道教一種重要的修煉方法，現在一般視為道教氣功（道家多稱「煉氣術」）的一種。內丹術指以「人身是一小天地」的「天人合一」、「天人相應」思想為理論，進行性命的修煉，以人身為鼎爐，修煉「精、氣、神」等而達成強身健體、提高人體的生命功能、延長壽命、乃至成仙、長生不老之目的。"
Ref: https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/内丹术

"煉氣是道教徒日常修持的重要內容之一，就是以持久地鍛煉導引和呼吸(breathing)，融會天地之精氣於自身，祛除疾病，長生成仙。 "
Ref: https://zh.daoinfo.org/wiki/煉氣

Now, I see why you have errors in your understanding

Those articles and texts have tons of inaccuracies. Just find a teacher with the methods. Follow them. Then you will have the discernment to tell what is true vs what is false.
 

Not trying to be rude, but people who write things like this often do not even have methods and all they are really doing is spreading misinformation

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 Please show justification.

The justification is that at a certain stage breathing stops entirely. This requires no breathing method to achieve.

I don’t know where you are getting your neidan knowledge but it’s clear you don’t have a teacher. Why are you people posting here nonstop, quoting translations as if you know things? Just let yourself be guided by those who actually understand what they are talking about.

If you don’t have an authentic Neidan teacher, you cannot start teaching on here. I am telling you that yes, there are breathing methods in certain lineages but they are not required in the slightest to reach the elixir. The elixir can be reached without any guided intention of the breath. Certain traditions use guided intention of the breath to stabilize breathing qualities. That’s a different method for similar results. When you use blanket statements like Neidan requires the use of guided breathing, you are contradicting basic facts and becoming deluded.
 

Just because you can read Chinese texts about Neidan or Daoism does not mean you know anything about the practice. You must forget all of what you think you know and just find a teacher with the right methods. It’s that simple. Many of those texts have inaccuracies. I can’t explain it, other than it must be the fate of some of you to just parrot texts on here without ever striving for the actual methods

22 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Have you read the Chinese version of Neidan? Without the special technique of breathing, Neidan cannot be accomplished. However, without the special breathing technique, breath will not and cannot change automatically when certain stages are reached.

That’s not true lol

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yuen Shen, 元神(original soul) remains the same, yes. The way of humans was born is their Ming(命), thus it cannot be changed.

Correct, except Ming can be changed to a certain extent using Ming gong

9 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Neidan is mainly a Qigong breathing practice method.

Use some discernment to figure out what is wrong with this sentence please

Firstly, how is Neidan a Qigong method?

Secondly, there are Neidan lineages without a single breathing method. Breath changes automatically when certain stages are reached.

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This cannot be true if one was born blind or deformed!

In that case, it is the Ming that is different.

Yuan Shen remains the same. Yuan Shen simplified is awareness. A blind man is still aware. A person born with no legs is still aware. It is their Ming that is different than fully functioning humans.

So, humans are not all the same. We may have the same ingredients that make up our being, but the quality of these ingredients varies from person to person. 
 

Does this make those with better ingredients more important though? In capitalistic society, people seem to value those that are ‘superior’ on a higher scale. Yet Dao does not.

You might then say, well what if Jesus is born again?! If Jesus is still in the reincarnation cycle and there truly will be a ‘second coming’, surely the person with Jesus’s soul is more important than a man born in poverty without any legs who can contribute nothing to society. Wrong. They are equally unimportant.

Again, this brings me to the point. Does spiritual growth really matter? Or is it simply a path we take when we grow bored of mundane living?

5 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

were all the same

Are we though? Are you sure? Who is we? What makes us the same? The fact that we are conscious? We still have differences.

How can we be the same if we are different?

Our personal natures are all different. Our pre-heaven nature is the thing that is the same.

1 minute ago, blue eyed snake said:

You cannot experience that, as when that 'realization' hits the experiencer is gone, but there is awareness and the memory of that awareness.

Awareness is the thing that experiences. You is thing that realizes 

19 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Just reacting to stuff in real time and thinking out loud:

 

If we could attain full consciousness that there is nothing special about us – that we are in fact exactly the same as any other being or object – in that we are all ephemeral manifestations of a fundamental energy which can never disappear, but which is instead continually transmuting into something different, would that not in itself be a form of immortality?   

That’s realization. Even then, you cannot realize such a thing or a similar such thing without experiencing it. I think such ideas are both true and false at the same time. Sure, we are all made of the same ‘stuff’, but that does not mean we are all the same.

Now, the labels of important and unimportant. Those, I feel like, can be transcended. It does not mean we are all the same. It means we are all on the same level of importance. Sage or otherwise. Of course your mind will reject this.

How could an earth immortal be just as important as a homeless man? To the normal, ape like mind, it seems like that cannot be true. To the Sage, it is.

@freeformAll facts.  No cap. On god

It is strange talking with those who have reached the elixir stage because they are still apes, it seems to me. Maybe just a bit more evolved, but they can still have bias, let’s say talking about other teachers for example.

In an attempt to classify the unclassifiable, it seems to me that Shen Xian is the true stage where our inner ape finally disappears, as there is no mind.
 

Yet, I cannot comprehend why a Shen Xian would downgrade itself to become ape again. It is a mystery that I guess doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.

In fact, why does creating harmony between heaven and earth even matter if at some point you transcend even the concepts of heaven and earth? If there are many universes, what’s the special thing about this particular one? It would seem that there is nothing special about this universe at all. I’m not just talking about the physical universe but the formless as well. 
 

I thought I practiced for a grand reason. I will perfect myself one day at a time and preserve the path of alchemy without bias to create harmony between heaven and earth to allow more humans to achieve Yang Shen again. To achieve freedom. Yet, I am not so sure. Sometimes I wonder if slipping back into the tides of fate and normalcy would really be so bad.

We already have Shen Xian. What’s one more? We already have Heavenly immortals. What’s one more? In the end, I am still left wondering, why practice at all? 
 

Sure, I can say I practice for the betterment of all and to help others gain freedom. It may in fact be partially true. I can say I practice to understand both Heaven and Earth so that I may come to perceive how to create harmony between the two to help all of humanity.

Yet, when I understand more, why does this particular universe even matter? I don’t matter at all, therefore, it should get along well enough without me. So, why practice? I have no interest in siddhi. My health will get along well enough till I die. Maybe I should just smoke weed, party, and fuck like a normal ape. Is that so bad?

Instead, here I am. Still practicing. Am I choosing to practice or is it still fate that controls me? I am unsure. I guess I’ll just keep swimming and see where it leads

19 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

If I believed you it would 100% be jealousy, that's true.  But I don't, so maybe it's just general dickheadedness 😂

 

And I'd feel this way about anyone making that claim, simply cause everyone from Lu Dongbin on down was said to have needed a guide.  I think the lore goes that Gautama made the leap himself at the end, but even he had teachers help him most of the way (and iirc he's said to be the last one who's gonna do this in the current Yuga).  

 

But as you say, I'm just a guy sharing idle thoughts through the internet for all I know you could be the second coming (and if you are - get tf off Daobums and do something with your life!)

Oh god no, I am not the second coming. That’d be quite awful.

Yes, every student needs a teacher no matter how much discernment you have. That’s because the methods don’t simply appear in your head. Also, a teacher is able to see your energetic state when you lack the ability. I do not think anyone can jump to Yang Shen without a teacher.

Trust me, I won’t be posting here much longer. Quite honestly, I just like interacting with @freeform

He is going to reach the elixir in this life. 

29 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI Elixir is the result of 外丹, wei dan (external alchemy). However, everything fails in wei dan, therefore, the Taoists went from external to internal alchemy( 內丹neidan).

Wei dan, 外丹, takes place in a cauldron to produce an elixir in pill form. It was done externally, thus that is why it was called external alchemy. Neidan, (內丹) was done inside the dantian(abdomen). It was accomplish by qigong(breathing exercise) to produce an imaginary pill inside the dantian which is called Neidan(internal pill). It was done internally, thus that is why it was called internal alchemy.

Sorry to say, Taoists used some poisonous elements such as lead, arsenic and other harmful elements. It failed to have the effect of longevity but caused death.  Therefore, the Taoist had decided to do it inside the body and due away with the harmful external elements to prevent death for once and for all.

The Taoist came up with three treasures of internal elements and they are jing(精), chi(氣) and shen(神). These three elements suppose to interact with each other to produce a health body to accomplish longevity. Their explanation of the process is very obfuscated and vague. I know what they are trying to say. However, I can only comprehend 75% of it and cannot repeat it in my own words. This is where stand.

Thanks!

Yes, I am confused on what’s funny about my post, as devices do in fact exist that ‘generate’ post-heaven Yin Qi. If you found one and could feel it, you would know it exists.

Also, there are many inaccuracies in this post, but those with discernment can see them so I won’t point them out

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Love you bro 🙏

 

Yes, but what is your motivation for pointing such a thing out? Is it jealousy, envy, or intention to help? Only you can answer that.

I know where I am at on that scale. It is the confidence and self-belief in knowing that I can reach the end of the path while also knowing I lack ability in this specific lifetime.

The scale is useful, sure. But only you can tell where you’re at. Not someone who judges you through a screen

I can discern my own placement, but thank you for trying to help 🙏

It is a real quality, you are correct. I am not joking. I can honestly tell when a spiritual truth is presented in front of me. It is a deep inner knowing that arises. 

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

If you've got discernment that clean, what do you even need a teacher for?  

 

Learn the method, 'feel out' any inefficiencies, and you're a straight shot to the finish line.

 

Then when you get there, you can tell your teacher all the inefficiencies you discerned in his method.

 

No joke, that's a high level quality imo - being able to tell the true from the false.

That’s why it’s mostly method. That’s basically what I do lol

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

No doubt.  One man's teacher is another man's student, and so on.

Imma sound like a dick so please know I'm saying this tongue in cheek to a peer - without a direct line to the Ultimate Truth, how tf would you know how good your discernment is? 

With discernment

10 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Are you saying that you have completely mastered neidan with your mysterious, unnamed master in the 24-30 months since you came here inquiring about qi machines? Of course you can see why people may be skeptical.

Qi machines are real. But, no I have not mastered Neidan. Never claimed that.

There are mechanical devices that somehow generate post heaven yin qi. I bet you can imagine the uses for this in a bionic arm

16 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Imo: 

Reality is hard to understand, hard to cope with. Some people find it more attractive to merely mindlessly regurgitate someone else’s words. That way no effort is required, and they can get their rocks off pontificating.  
 

 

Contrary to what you believe, that is not why I post on here, and I do not mindlessly regurgitate. Much of what I say is taken from a base understanding given to me, but it is also in my own words.

It is not because I like sounding like I know a lot. It’s because I believe it is helpful to people to explain things well. 

42 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Nah you've got a ton of knowledge that I enjoy reading but considering we've been doing Nei Dan for about the same period of time idk why you're presenting them as inaccuracies instead of things your teacher would disagree with 🤷.

 

It's not like me and you are chilling in the Yuan Shen here - pulling knowledge straight from its source (idk if it even comes from there haha but I imagine you've been taught enough theory to know that).  Somebody's teacher says one thing and somebody else's says another... If it's not part of our experience we're talking in hypotheticals, so how would we know our corrections are correct?

Yes, I see what you’re saying, however, somehow I can usually tell whether something is true or not fairly easily. And I only really post what I believe to be mostly true. 
 

As you can see, even many people considered ‘high level’ can have inaccuracies and fall onto the scale you mention.

We must have discernment to tell true from false for there is in fact an ultimate truth.

21 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Did you see Damo's FB post today?  

 

Edit: Relevance - you're clearly super smart and full of passion, but do you ever wonder where these ideas would fall on the Dunning-Kreuger chart?  🙏

 

P.S. All Love, I'm a dummy anyways so not comparing.

I haven’t, but I’ll check it out. And, sure. You could make that point.

Would you rather I not say anything and let others inaccuracies stand just so I feel like my ability matches my understanding?

On 11/27/2022 at 12:36 PM, freeform said:

 

I'm not a good person to ask! 'Relatively' modern haha. 

Basically I disagree that it's thousands of years old... I think it's more modern than the DDJ.

 

Of course it gets even more woolly once you introduce the question "What is Nei Dan"... because just like most arts it has gone through many evolutions (and devolutions) - at what point was it the 'most authentic'? 

 

It's not of particular interest to me really - but I would say that it's been developed after the Buddha... after the DDJ... Of course there are aspects of Neidan that are rooted in pre-history... but the most crucial aspects of the methods are not from that era  

I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion, but I’m pretty sure this is wrong as well. 

First off, in my definition, moving from spiritual immortal to heavenly immortal is Neidan. This would place Neidan’s creation back before the beginning of the universe.

This universe was created by a heavenly immortal. That heavenly immortal was most likely a spiritual immortal before that. So, Neidan, in the spiritual sense, has been here for a long long time.

Now, if you’re discussing humanity, sure, the creation of the elixir could be more modern than thousands of years, however, even if all humans were born at the Yang Shen level, there is still alchemical work to be done to rise from Yang Shen to spiritual immortal and actualize Yang body.

In pre history, Neidan still existed. It may just not have been necessary to transmute yin Shen to Yang Shen in earlier Yugas.

Upon the creation of the universe, there is a spiritual big bang of sorts where Spiritual immortals come into existence. Neidan exists even here. The process of moving from spiritual immortal to heavenly immortal is still Neidan.

On 11/28/2022 at 4:09 AM, freeform said:

The process itself is not sacred or spiritual - it’s just a technology… Just as a statue of the medicine Buddha is just a statue  

I am confused by your definition of Neidan, as I am pretty sure it’s impossible to separate internal alchemy from spiritual growth and call it a ‘technology.’

For example, fusing the Refined Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi to form the elixir is alchemical and definitely spiritual.

Going from Earth immortal to spiritual immortal, that is still Neidan in my definition. Most definitely a spiritual process. Not to mention Spiritual Immortal to Heavenly Immortal 

24 minutes ago, freeform said:

Alchemy, I believe is actually relatively more modern than most people seem to think… 

 

The DDJ path is an older one. It is said that the end result of DDJ and Neidan are quite different… 

Strange. I think the opposite. It is more ancient than people think, dating back not hundreds of years but thousands. There was an ancient era prior to written history where Neidan existed.

The entire Chinese language was developed out of an alchemical understanding.

Not to mention other parts of the physical universe containing things similar to Neidan. It is much more ancient than people believe 

6 minutes ago, steve said:

@MetaDao

Posting links to pirated materials is indeed against the rules.

Please do not do it again.

Thanks 

~ management

Is it against divine law too? Hehhe

7 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

So what is is about?

 

Genuine question 

Spiritual immortality in order to spread Dao to all living things.

As you transmute your being, you’re also presented the opportunity to create harmony between Heaven and Earth.

Realization is simply a milestone along the path. It is not about freeing yourself from the reincarnation cycle either. That’s another milestone. People approaching the arts from that perspective are selfish.