MetaDao

1 hour ago, ChiDumbass said:

My master is a Neidan master

Based on what you said, I would say he isn’t.

 

Look, everyone where I said you have no fate for Neidan, I purely meant that based on your current views of things, it seems that your fate is not in line with Neidan.

 

Without altering your viewpoint, you will not find a genuine Neidan lineage.

 

I can tell you that if you are open-minded, change your views, and seek with an open-heart, you can find the lineages. So far, no one has really had any meaningful thoughts that really help.

 

 

6 minutes ago, ChiDumbass said:

used to be very cautious about this and did semen retention for a long time

Semen retention without the correct practices leads to bad health. Probably why you feel better. Your post also highlights that you have no fate for Neidan.

36 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

 

And this is what you call a conversation?

 

You asked for thoughts. I gave you thoughts.

 

Good luck with your practice.

And I told you what I thought of your thoughts. That, by definition, is a conversation.

 

So far, you’ve proven to me what many males think and why many don’t have the fate for Neidan.

 

Thank you!

Just now, ChiDragon said:

I am, 74, still able to. It seems I feel like I am 25. What are my chances in the near future?

Well, I’d say you will die within 20 or so years. I’m sure they were fun though

3 hours ago, Barnaby said:

It's like, what's more important? Being a big powerful Nei Dan master of the universe? Or just being happy?    

Indeed. What is more important? 
 

But, let me, a young spring chicken, give you a word of advice. In the next 10-20 years, you will no longer be having sex.

 

And, I do not think you correctly understand. You could have sex until you’re 50 then start practicing Neidan and still reach a high achievement.

 

So, don’t come in here with your alpha male shit thinking you’re something because you’re old and have sex.

 

At some point in everyone’s life, you are no longer able to have sex.  The Jing depletes automatically. Then, you die a normal death and enter into the cycle of reincarnation.

 

So, the question is, do you want to have sex like you’ve done for many previous lives or move beyond it to something way more rewarding?

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't mean to offend you. May I ask how much are you paying for the course to learn all that?

PS
Is your teacher a Chinese Taoist?

Lol. This here outlines why such methods if they existed would never be taught through payment as form of permission 

27 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

That's interesting.  I'm assuming you're talking about something beyond the Frantzis/Chia popular methods.  What led you to develop this theory?

No. I’ll just leave it at that. I’d just be making things up and guessing. But, I do believe it was a thing.

 

I’m talking about something within Neidan lineages. Nothing that is in any writing. Something that was passed down only from master to disciple in a closed-door setting. Probably a transmission teaching.

 

Also, complete abstinence is still a requirement in what I am learning. Just adding some food for thought 

Now, to sum up this post now that the theory has been fully fleshed out.
 

Take this with a grain of salt. In my opinion, after the Yuan Jing replenishment stage, there used to be sexual practices that were done for a purpose with a cultivation partner. These would aid the cultivation of the elixir through opening channels or fusing substances, ect. Basically sexual side methods to do with your cultivation partner.
 

The fact that this came after the Yuan Jing replenishment stage ensured that wrongdoings would be avoided as the correct safety measures were put into place. Again, Yuan Qi would still leak and it would be a waste, but say, you were using that Yuan Qi to open certain channels, then it would serve a purpose. You could just replenish that Yuan Qi after.

Now, we may have lost these teachings to time, but this leads me to my point that sex is not entirely detrimental to spiritual growth. I believe when it serves a purpose maybe it is not 100% correct to completely avoid it. Maybe there are certain times where a person should recognize that having sex is useful to overcoming psychological obstacles before dropping it entirely to achieve complete replenishment.

 

Now, in modern times, I think we have simplified it because it is a complex topic. There have been many cases of sexual misconduct amongst gurus in the past. Thus, it is a dangerous topic to bring up. In any case, I believe each person’s journey through Neidan is personal and complete abstinence may happen on different timescales.

32 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

suppress the stimuli from allowing desire to arise in the first place? 

Yes. That is what I mean. Intentional avoidance from stimuli of desire to arise. This, combined with practice, leads to completely replenished Yuan Jing. Meaning, the bucket is completely filled back to how it was at the peak levels in your life.

 

A deeper accomplishment than the firing process.

24 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

In the system I'm practicing this happens rather early on after consolidation/stilling enough that certain markers show up. 

I’m not entirely sure when the Yang spark is extracted in the tradition I’m working under. I will have to ask my teacher

50 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

This means that abstinence is a useful temporary tool for consolidation, but not an ongoing thing (and I know your system disagrees with this - just providing contrast).

The difference in the systems lies in how direct it is in terms of touching the pre-heaven. Everything that Damo takes you through in regards to stilling Jing, consolidating Jing, and the other phrases he uses for the Jing are all accomplished through continual abstinence combined with replenishment.

45 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

because if your system teaches continual abstinence then yeah its gonna be super hard to avoid leakages through desire.

Yes continual abstinence is considered ideal.

 

Basically, you can have sex in small doses as long as you don’t finish. This is what many married men do. I believe in later stages we also extract the Yang spark, so the semen can be shed. Of course, the Yuan Jing is still leaking, also stimulating the post-heaven Qi.

 

Eventually, the channel closes off leading to a natural reduction in leaks and sexual desire.

 

Suppression of desire is basically the goal in tandem with the practice. Thus, you burn the candle from both ends. If you refrain from sex and desire for long enough, many of the things your tradition teaches are worked through. Consolidation/stilling of Jing, ect. 
 

So, if you have done the practice to the point where the channel closes off, there really isn’t that much danger in any sort of deviancy occurring. That’s where the true transformations start.

 

This is why it is usually done in retreat in the mountains. Not in the city surrounded by women and distractions.

 

My teacher has said that he doesn’t necessarily care if you’re having sex, but he has made us very aware that we will never replenish the Yuan Jing back to its peak state before puberty hit if we are having sex.

 

Now, this doesn’t mean we can’t use our own discretion to deem when it’s useful to have sex. In other words, I have the permission to have sex without getting kicked out or not being able to continue in the lineage. I also just know that I won’t be marking progress if I do. It seems like a personal decision to make.

Alright, I’ve started this topic because I believe sex is a very complicated subject. I’d love to start a real conversation about it.

 

First, let me highlight my current understanding. The most important and pivotal factor is that desire leads to loss of Yuan Jing.

 

The bucket of Yuan Jing that is supposed to refill to the brim cannot refill unless the holes in the bucket are plugged up. This means that ideally you should refrain from all sexual activity as it stimulates desire. If you are working to replenish Yuan Jing, you will basically be wasting effort if you go out and have sex.

 

Yet, I am in a dilemma. You see, I’m not fully confident that it is 100% healthy and always the case that sex should be quit entirely right off the bat. Yes, it’s the correct thing to do for replenishment. But, Jing is an energetic substance with many psychological components to it. 
 

Say, for example, you’ve been through sexual trauma in early childhood. This has resulted in repression of memory, avoidance of sex, and general psychological issues in relation to sex. Some people have real baggage when it comes to sex, raising a bunch of insecurities and fears, influencing the complex nature of desire and Jing.

 

In danger of sharing too much information, I am a young male in my early 20s who’s working to replenish Yuan Jing. I know sex runs counter to my practice, yet I have realized that I have insecurities and problems in relation to sex that I feel like I should conquer before quitting it entirely. 
 

To me, more and more, it seems like sex has a big psychological aspect to it that a lot of times must be dealt with before it is quit entirely. If I had kids and I was a master of Neidan,  I actually would not advise them to not have sex. In fact, I might say have as much sex as you want, knowing the dangers. Know the facts about how you are losing Yuan Jing.

But, do you feel it serves a purpose? Do you feel you must deal with some problems first? Do you need to work things out with a trusted partner before quitting it entirely for spiritual growth? If so, I think sex is a perfectly healthy, natural thing to explore along the spiritual path.

 

To me, sex does matter for spiritual growth. This is because it’s a part of personal development. You cannot rise above that which you cannot do. It is best to conquer sex and explore it, then discard it. That’s my opinion. Of course, many people come to Neidan from differing backgrounds at differing ages.

 

I just turned 23. I have only had sex a few times in my life due to trauma. I haven’t had many long-term emotional relationships.

 

I could have sex for the next 6 months then quit it entirely, only causing minor delays in my practice. To me, it seems almost necessary to work through the issues I have. It’s like a block in my practice. If I don’t do this, it seems like I run the danger of regressing later in my practice when it matters far more.

 

In our modern society, sex is highly prized in relationships. Say, I take a girl on a date. Then 1 or 2 more dates. She’s expecting sex eventually because women have desire just the same as men for the most part. Then comes that awkward moment. Look, I’m not having sex right now. This, off the bat, raises so many problems immediately. First, are the problems you raise for yourself. The insecurities. Well, what’s gonna stop this girl from going out and having sex with other people if she’s not getting it from me? Yada yada. The list goes on.
 

Yes, you could just say straight up, I don’t like sex, it doesn’t lead to that much pleasure for me, and I’m actually avoiding it for a spiritual practice that is very dear to my heart. Yet, the chances of finding a woman who can connect emotionally to you without ever having sex is few and far between. I don’t think it’s a very realistic thing to put into action in the early 20’s stage. Especially if you’re looking for emotional connection. Someone to share your life with.

 

Some people arrive to authentic Neidan in their 30’s with a wife. For them, it’s much easier. They’ve had their pill. They’ve eaten until they are overfull and neither them nor their wife really truly need it too much to keep that emotional connection.

 

I’m not sure I will receive any satisfactory answers on here, but just being relatable, this has to be the biggest obstacle for men. If it’s a problem for me, I know for a fact it’s a problem for others. I’d love to at least read the thoughts that are generated from this topic.

 

 

32 minutes ago, freeform said:

Though it’s easy and fun, correlation is probably the worst logical tool you could use to understand anything even slightly complex.

 

Combine that with using dictionary definitions as your main source of information and that just makes it even worse… It’s like looking up the definition of ‘ophthalmology’ and thinking you now understand how eyes work.

 

And the tingling sensation has nothing to do with qi (not really anyway) - just signals from your nerves  

 

Sorry @ChiDragon - I enjoy your enthusiasm and your help with Chinese translations - but it’s worth pointing out to people unfamiliar with your ways that you’re talking with great conviction about stuff you have zero actual experience or understanding of.

You are preaching to deaf ears.

 

It is harsh to say, but I am convinced many of the people on this forum have no fate for Neidan. Just blind leading the blind.

 

I will say it again: find masters of whichever spiritual path you want to follow, listen to their guidance, disregard those without a path, know that you are ignorant of many things.

 

I at least admit to myself that I am ignorant of a great many things regarding alchemy while also trying to point out the basics when I can. Many people on this forum cannot admit that. They simply believe their own delusions

16 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

I appreciate your concerns, but this is a discussion forum 😂 if I stop listening to everyone who thought different from me then id be guilty of the sort of dogmatism you rightly warned about earlier.

 

I was grateful to learn your own understanding of the process as well, but what fun is it to shut down anyone who's understanding differs?  

 

For goodness sake, you've only been training with him for about a year, right?  Nobody could expect you to have all the answers so quickly...

You misunderstand what I’m saying. Basically everyone on here besides @freeform do not understand much of the alchemical process at all.

 

To ask for answers on here is folly. Likewise, you don’t really need to listen to anybody about alchemy except for your direct teachers. Then, practice leads you to your own answers and conclusions. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

Thanks very much!  So if you don't mind me asking - if Jing isn't a distinct substance, what is it that's being replenished?

Thanks for the recommendation!  I have a copy of this, and started reading it last night.  I appreciate how it references the classics I was having trouble pulling this information from (i.e. Awakening to Reality)

Jing is a distinct substance. Don’t listen to Taoist Texts.

 

Look, no one on this forum can sufficiently answer your question.

I haven’t personally refined my Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi yet. When I do, l will return here with more satisfactory answers.

 

Those texts are nice references though.

A problem I’m noticing is everyone’s reliance on Damo or others like him for knowledge. Damo is not a master of Neidan and neither am I.

 

There are errors in his understanding just as there are errors in mine.

 

It seems like people are over glorifying him just because he has had a role in bringing some of the lesser known eastern practices to the west. Just because something is said to counter something Damo has said does not make it immediately wrong.

 

I’ve said this time and again. Find an authentic lineage, practice wholeheartedly, and you will be able to tell what is true for yourself. 
 

If you are one of Damo’s students’, why even ask on here about Jing to Qi. Just ask him. Similarly, people in the online forums of Neidan need to get it into their heads that you don’t just rely on others for truth or knowledge. Neither do you rely on texts.

 

You rely on your master’s guidance, your own practice, and stay true to your path. Then, the knowledge and truth reveals itself. There is no need to place people on pedestals.
 

 

17 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

OK, the stuff about desire I can follow.

 

But talking about semen takes it somewhere far more specific.

 

Does that imply that Yuan Jing leakage is more of a problem for men than for women?

 

Or that these words are just cultural signifiers, referencing things that are more unisex?

It is a bit harder of an obstacle for Men to overcome, yes. Puns intended.

 

We can also talk about menstrual blood if that makes you more comfortable

 

Just as Men and Women have physical differences, they also have energetic differences, resulting in differing strengths and weaknesses for stages of Neidan. In fact, lost to the ages, there were specific lineages centered around women.

 

In my opinion, lost to the ages as well, are legitimate sexual practices that actually helped both men and women in their pursuit of the elixir. It has been simplified down by modern masters to say “sex doesn’t matter for spiritual growth.” However, this statement is not entirely true.

Sex can actually help one along the path to the elixir if done in the right way. Yes, it is eliminated entirely at a certain point and you don’t even feel like having sex at all. But that doesn’t mean it’s not useful in certain aspects. This still doesn’t change the fact that sex is something that stimulates our desires and leaks Yuan Jing though. In other words, it’s a major leak of Yuan Qi and is an obstacle everyone must overcome in order to achieve the elixir.

4 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

 

So this is a fundamentally phallocentric model, then?

 

I'm not being flippant. With all the references to semen, sperm and ejaculation, that would seem to be the case...

I’m sorry but no lmao.

 

There is just as much organization of knowledge surrounding Jing with women as well. The process is simply different. Post-heaven Jing generates the sexual fluids within our body.

 

Desire leaks Yuan Jing for both males and females.

 

Semen is vitally important because it is created through using up the Yang spark of the jing. So, it’s a huge leak of Yuan Jing. The penis, quite frankly, doesn’t much matter. It’s the fluids that matter. And the mental arousal.

1 hour ago, Creation said:

It can be hard to remember what Damo has said in publically available material, but I'm fairly certain he has mentioned the jing hua in a YouTube video addressing misconceptions regarding sexual practices, which is the yang line in the middle of the kan trigram, which is what the firing process is extracting from the jing, and this is the energy within the jing that is used to create life. I don't think that was mentioned in White Moon.

Yes, you are correct. Genuine Yang contained within water. This has to mix or fuse with Genuine Yin contained within fire.

1 hour ago, Creation said:

I misremembered, it was Bhutan, not Nepal, he mentions it at the end of this talk. Another neidan practitioner in this forum's history, whose name I can't recall at the moment, mentioned this same thing many years ago, so it's not just Damo saying this.

Lol, well I’m listening to it rn.

 

First off, he says “that brings you to the next step after alchemy, then you work with the channel system.” Not sure how that is after alchemy. That process he’s starting to describe is still alchemy.

 

Also, a few of his sentences towards the very end are wrong as well. Says something about fueling meditation and other things. I guess in his view those are a middle pillar and couldn’t be fully explained as he was rushed. 
 

I am off to practice. I will listen to more of it later to see exactly what he says. 
 

Ah, I see. He’s talking of extracting the Yang spark of the Jing. Yes, that just means that the Yang spark is not present within your system, so it is not contained within the sperm when it is produced. So, essentially, when you ejaculate, you do not lose the Yang spark and Yuan Jing wastage is minimized to simply the mental desire. Like he mentions in the video, the process can be reversed. 

 

If you’re replenishing Yuan Jing, the Yang spark will come back. You can most certainly still have children. You just have to wait for your system to contain the Yang spark again without extracting it. Then, your semen will contain the potential for life, and boom babies are possible!

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

And in this model would it be fair to say the pre and post heaven Jing don't have a direct relationship?

They pre-heaven always has a direct relationship with the post-heaven. Any work with the pre-heaven is simultaneously affecting the post-heaven. 
 

It doesn’t work the other way around though. If you affect the post-heaven, there is no direct affect on the pre-heaven.

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

As a sidebar did you get that model from White Moon on the Mountain Peak?  🤔 It's not what he's teaching right now but I know in the past he's simplified some of the models for books.

I did. Can you explain what he’s teaching now?

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

So to continue with this metaphor a practitioner first restores their supply of 'ice' (Yuan Jing) which is then gradually melted into water (Yuan Qi), which is then gradually evaporated into steam (Yuan Shen)? 

In a way yes, but that model is highly simplified. Steam can also can be refined. The refined steam(whatever that may be) then has to fuse with the water. Otherwise known as the mixing of Kan and Li

2 hours ago, Creation said:

Of course, it's not like the process makes you jing deficient in CM terms, but it does apparently make you sterile (per Damo's Nepal lecture), so some function within the body is indeed being rerouted to something else.  Maybe this is the reason for the use of the term converted. Just speculation, I'm not the type of experience practitioner you requested to answer.

There is a rerouting that takes place, but in my understanding, you are not sterile. 
 

Your body still produces post-heaven Jing when it needs to. This then gets converted to semen, which contains the potential for life. So, not sure if that’s a direct quote but that’s an error if it is.