MetaDao

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Does embodying the correct ethical qualities increase a student's probability for success (all other things being equal)?

For sure. Aligned with the compass, you have straight shot directly to immortality.

1 hour ago, freeform said:

But I agree they’re not necessarily spiritual. They can be leading to spiritual practices - but not spiritual in themselves. And it depends on the teacher - most of what you see is just for health and exercise with friends in the park.

Quite right. Which is why these are even more dangerous to teach the public as they don’t contain the personal growth of the spiritual traditions.
 

Interesting how we have set up these online businesses centered around Neigong

Ghost, Human, Earth, Spiritual, Heavenly

Ghost immortals are forever in the ghost realm and cannot travel to the higher realms or incarnate as humans.

Human immortals have fully replenished the Yuan Jing. The oil in the lamp. They live in accordance with the laws of nature. So, continuing practice, they do not die of old age. However, it is easy for them to regress from this level, as it is not permanent.

Earth Immortal. This is the stage of the Dan, the elixir, Yang Shen. Cannot die of old age. Body is in the realm of Earth but mind is in the realm of Dao. Master level. All siddhi are attained.

Spiritual Immortal - This is the level of the Yang body. Golden embryo is actualized and born out the central channel. Yuan Shen is contained within this indestructible energy body known as the Yang body. Mind is eliminated. Free will retained. Divine sort of conscious that carries out tasks according to heaven’s mandate. Yang body can replicate over time. Basically omnipotent. Understanding divine law and YiJing is the key to further progression here.

Heavenly immortal - All Yang bodies return to dissolve into the light body. Not comprehensible or worth speaking about in words. These heavenly immortals birth their own universes and govern them. For example, this entire universe we reside within was created by a heavenly immortal. Jade emperor.

I will also add pseudo-immortals to the list. Some magickal traditions teach soul transfer. These practitioners transfer their soul to a new body before death, thus escaping death and giving themselves more time to attain true immortality. Still stuck in samsara and are actively accruing karma. Any sort of technological immortality we achieve in the future would also fall into the pseudo immortal category. 

“In true sitting, during the twelve[double] hours, whether you are standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, and in all states of movement or quiescence, your mind should be like Mount Tai: motionless and unshaken.” 

“Cutting down trees breaks the flow of the fluids in the Earth’s vessels, just as asking for goods or money when giving teachings on the Dao takes away from the people’s blood vessels.”

Taken from Fifteen Essays to Establish a Teaching

I think they are a compass pointing us in the right direction for high-level attainment.

This, however, does not mean that those of high level attainment always adhere to the precepts.

On 12/23/2022 at 9:40 AM, anshino23 said:

 

I like my friend's take on this... May provide you with a different perspective...

 

Allow me to share...  

 

This answer is not as straightforward as one might think. Remember that there is also always the level of mundane critical thinking, where one should look at cause-and-effect and sensibility, instead of sticking to values, rites and rituals blindly. The world functions as a better place because of sensibility (with good intentions) and not solely on virtue.

 

There are a few things we need to consider before we answer the question. The first thing is always the motivation and intention of the teacher. The second thing is the student. Lastly, it is how the whole thing fits in a way that allows for the fruits of enlightenment to be reaped on both sides.

 

For the teacher, if you were to ask for monetary returns, that is not a mistake. The mistake is not about reciprocation but about accessibility of the dharma. We must strive to let the dharma be accessible to anyone, regardless of one's financial status. Hence, many teachers function by a donation-only basis, which emulates the begging lifestyle advocated by the Buddha. Begging is not supported in western societies, and is in fact shunned, with the increase of laws against homelessness. Hence, it is not practical, because a follower of the Buddha has to firstly ensure one's own physical survival before one is able to cultivate the dharma.

 

There are enlightened beings who write about their experiences and sell them as copies. This reason is simple: If you follow the laws of how the world operates, money is an enabling method for distribution, as well as for survival. The problem rises only when one becomes attached to this material gain and what it offers, indulging in it instead of using it purely for subsistence. It is more of a mastery of cause and effect, not sticking to rigid views. An enlightened being is human, of course one must live according to the rules of society.

 

Another point about the teacher is that this teacher must recognize one's own attainment. Mastery of a certain jhana, leading to factors like bliss, joy, tranquility, equanimity and so on, are essential, because absorption is always linked to insight. The deeper one goes, the more insight one has, and there is in increased ability to look at the whole process as a whole. Addictions and habits must at least be worked on, or roasted away through jhana. The reason for this is that the student almost always reflects as the image of the teacher. Hence, if a diligent student does not attain fruit, you can be sure that the teacher does not have attainment. A teacher must thus not teach above one's level.

 

About the student, this can be complicated. There are people who do not value free things. The reason for this is the need for reciprocity and personal projection. People tend to value things that they gain by what they lose. In a way, giving up an unawakened lifestyle in exchange for one based around contemplation can be a huge cost. In the same way, losing material wealth for the dharma can have a psychological effect. This requires a keen sense of insight on the part of the teacher.

 

Lastly, meditation should not be for any other purpose than to reach enlightenment, for in the light of anything worth in th world, there is no other way to end suffering than to cut the fetters that bind us to samsara. Therefore, while meditation can be promoted as a way of relaxation, therapy or benefit-reaping exercise, we should be reminded that all of these traits come as a side-effect when one stops grasping and goes into jhana anyway.

 

Most importantly, it is about accessibility for those who knock on the doors searching for truth, as well as accuracy of what is taught. Also, subsistence and non-indulgence in wealth on the side of the teacher.

Sure, there is some truth to your words, but I’d still say the majority of this is more rationalization of greed.

Are there teachers unattached to money that still charge? Yes, of course. My teacher is one of them. The question is: what are they doing with the money? Anything useful? And, why are they charging money? What’s the reasoning? Yes, this is up to the teacher and student to figure out.
 

Are there teachers that charge nothing that are fraudsters? Yes, of course. The students should easily be able to discern this though.

Being both unattached to money and doing something useful with it that helps the world: that, to me, is a sign of true mastery.
 

If you are unattached to money and are doing nothing useful with it, you are not a master. This is simply wastefulness.

Similarly, if you are truly unattached from money, you could give it all way in a heartbeat without it affecting you. I do not think many are at this level. They simply delude themselves and their students that they are 🤷‍♂️

Seems like a whole lot of self-deceptive rationalizations to me 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

It is kind of a character test in and of itself really. How attached to money are you

I would say this is more a false character test done by fraudsters.

True masters don’t need to charge. It is more of an energy exchange. Yin and Yang. Giving and receiving.

I think I said this before. If you wanted to test how attached someone was to money, you could have them throw all their possessions away or burn the money that they give you. If the money is going to the teacher as a form of test, that is fraud. Simply deems you as a fool and a sucker. If any of you encounter such a test, the correct solution is to hand the money to someone who looks like they need it.

When they ask why you did that, you explain, they looked like they needed it more than you 🤷‍♂️

If they still deny you, they are frauds. Move on

49 minutes ago, Cobie said:

There’s a sucker born every minute.

@Shadow_self They tested his character and deemed him a sucker 😂

51 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Do you think this was an inaccurate assessment?

 

Edit: you were right to point out earlier that I don't know the true 'you', only the 'mask' you present here.  It just seems to me that this 'mask' seems to embody the above qualities sometimes, along with a range of positive ones like intelligence, idealism, drive, passion etc.

Lol rather than answer that, I could list off a bunch of bad qualities that Damo shares and you’d just think me more of a child.

If, however, the words came out of Damo’s mouth, you’d believe them. 
 

This just proves my point. 
 

I do not think you’d like to share the same fate I did and be on the receiving ends of such words.
 

Sure, maybe I am those things. But only in certain situations. And, I work on myself day in and day out, so does it even matter? 
 

Let me say this. You have much more tact and skill with your words than Damo, so I think you will easily eclipse him in terms of skill if you put in effort. 

Damo wouldn’t apologize, backtrack on his words, or admit he may be wrong  Not that I’ve experienced. 

 I tried to meet with him over zoom to discuss how I might go about changing these qualities he’d seen in me and why I came across that way and he denied all attempts at communication. 

Also, Damo, at my age, I’m sure was even more entitled and even more self-important. I’ve heard he picked fights with people and pissed them off just for fun. In fact, I’d still call him self-important and entitled. To add to that, I’d say he is selfish and greedy. Seems only fair as the child I am  

He’s welcome to prove me wrong and change the internal arts scene for the better. But, I expect he will just relax in Bali with his wife enjoying the good life as he teaches a few close students and ignores the problems I’ve pointed out. In the meantime, I’ll be practicing with the intention to fix the internal arts scene in around 30 years . Public fame does not matter at all in terms of skill. Nor is it necessary. Simply another attachment and obstacle.

15 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

You were straight up disrespectful, and I get that you've got your own side to the story but how could such a smart guy like yourself not see that there might be consequences for acting like that?

Not the way I see it. I disagreed. He called me a child. Said he’d never train me in person. It would be impossible. 
 

I told him his mind isn’t anything considered higher. He sent me an email calling me entitled, self-important, childish, and some other names. Not a teacher I’d study under.
 

When a teacher gives you shit, you don’t just take it. That’s not the way I am. So, he can take my words just as I meant them. I’d say them again in the same way. 
Not to mention he used siddhi on me. He can take my disrespect. He’s got thick skin  

That’s my side of the story. The moral of it. Don’t place people on pedestals. You can check the Facebook chat for exactly what I said. I’m sure some of it was cringeworthy, but if you know who I am you can go check unless he deleted them.

That’s all I’ve got to say on it. And, I believe the internal arts scene is flawed. So case closed.

48 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

My motivation is to stop unnecessary harm happening to people and for cultivation to not have a bad reputation. 

Ah but both of those things already happen with the current system. People just profit off it. 
 

You could make all TCM and medical Qigong techniques free about 30 years before making all the other techniques free and open to the public, thus ensuring safety above all else.

Teachers wouldn’t require names or followings as you could just use technology to make yourself an animated avatar with an anonymous name, and voice changer

If you stop and consider, you’ll realize you have two people in your mind.

On the one hand, there is Damo Mitchell, a publicly renowned Neigong instructor who you’ve been learning under for quite some time. In every interaction you’ve had with him, he’s been a very nice fellow and explained things pretty well. You consider him to be of high attainment and a master of the arts he teaches. Most of the time, his understanding is correct. He is wise. He is older. He has traveled and seems great many things along the path.

Then, you’ve got a hot-headed young guy who’s just been through college, coming into the forums explaining the basics of Neidan, being truthful about what he’s been through and who he is, explaining how he places everyone on equal pedestals. Questioning why Neidan is so secretive and why these public teachers are profiting so much from things that seem like they should be given to all. He has been kicked out of the community which you hold so dear to your heart and is saying that the teacher you know and respect can be an asshole and isn’t always right. Something he would say about himself as well.

Now, you experience cognitive dissonance because subconsciously, you are placing your image of Damo on a pedestal. A pedestal of the pinnacle of what you’re currently practicing. Something you’re aspiring towards. Now, you think to yourself, there must be a reason this guy was kicked out of the academy. So on and so forth. Making all kinds of automatic judgements. Eliminate these subconscious judgments and patterns. Eliminate the bias. 

Stop and consider the actual issues I raise regarding misuse of power, charging money for practices, secrecy, ect. Bring yourself on equal footing with your teacher(Damo) and think to yourself: would I still charge money for the academy? I wonder how much money Damo already has. Does he need more?

Hmm, these issues how would I resolve them? Bring these leaders down off their pedestals. Not just Damo. Everyone. Realize that you are just as good as them. Realize that many people are just as good as you. Realize that these arts could be practiced by many people. This is the viewpoint I share. It is not such a bad one to consider no?

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

Have you ever worked in a daycare, or pound, or school?

 

You've got all these little shits around and there's always one that's such a pain in the ass.  Now if that were YOUR kid, and you were dealing with them one on one, you might have the resources to manage them properly.  But you don't!  So you put them in the corner, and go back to managing the rest of them.

 

I imagine running an online school is like this 😂

An interesting perspective. And you consider me the little shit that’s a pain in the ass.

But on what basis do you make that judgement? You’ve never personally interacted with me  

I consider you to be very intelligent and your mental state seems great from our discussions on here. I wouldn’t be surprised if you make it far along the path.

I put on a mask on these forums to convey things to people. I don’t care how I’m viewed. If you met me, you would think otherwise. The tone I take on these forums is different than the one I have in person.

You see: from my perspective, you have many judgements you’ve made about me and I have very few I’ve made about you

It’s curious. From what I can tell, what I say is in everyone’s best interests except those who are the keepers of the secrets.

So, why the backlash? Please explain  

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

It’s funny how your experience differs completely with mine in terms of Damo. 
 

As long as one is being respectful and kind I’ve seen all questions being answered and everything not answered he says it’s more for an in-person thing which I completely respect. 
 

As for your current teacher I funnily found the opposite the case. It was just a “trust me.” with no real explanations and — as I understood it — none of the real developmental stages were similar to what I’ve confirmed with other high-level practitioners that learn from authentic neidan lineages so I quickly lost faith — lots of lofty claims was part of it. 
 

As I know and practiced with the teacher I know first-hand and not just speaking on belief. So it’s interesting to see the difference in your experience. 
 

Wish you the best in your practice however.  

I had similar experiences with Damo. I never said he was a bad teacher. I am simply saying he is not always correct.

If you can’t disagree with a teacher without him quickly turning on you aggressively and calling you names, I would never like to learn from him. That was my experience with Damo. I know that’s not everyone’s experience, but it was mine. 
 

Funny because my own teacher thinks quite the opposite of me  

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Hang on, I thought secrets were bad? Why should everyone else be expected to give away all their secrets for free but you and your master can keep yours?

I’m not keeping my secrets. I’ve said basically as much as I can say without getting barred from learning. If I was a master, I would come back on this forum and reveal all that I deemed safe to share 🤷‍♂️

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Another thing, what if all of these teachings were made freely available to everyone and suddenly you have lots of people injuring themselves or dying? Do you not think that there will not be a massive backlash, with the practices maybe getting banned and the teachings destroyed?  

I’m just curious. Why do you have such a motivation for keeping them secret?
 

Yes, that argument is fair. However, I’ve already pointed out that the opposite would also be true. There would be far more people with positive benefits. Those with negative benefits could be treated by Qigong doctors, acupuncturists, and TCM practitioners. If the risks are made clearly known, it is on no one but the practitioners.

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Now we may have attended different lectures but I was under the impression that the central idea in cultivation is that being yourself isn't good enough.

I meant that being yourself is either good enough or it isn’t to earn the right to teachings.

Do you believe me not good enough to be learning Neidan just because I told you Damo kicked me out of the academy?

Yes, I agree that self-improvement is always the pivotal aspect of spiritual growth. You should never be content with who you currently are. Yet, you should always stay true to your heart. 
 

This is what I meant. I stay true to my heart, and if that’s not good enough to learn Neidan from a teacher than the system is broken.

20 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

(I remember some of your interactions with him btw.  I don't remember them way you do but appreciate that you might view them differently than me). 

I greatly admire and respect Damo and thought we had many great interactions in his community, but I slowly grew to realize that he’s just a man. A flawed man just like the rest of us. With a passion for helping spread authentic teachings. 

And, if I were a renowned teacher, I would personally love others to call me on my bullshit, so don’t view it as some sort of spiteful revenge but as a form of respect. He is a in a position where he actually has power over the internal arts world, yet he is not doing enough. I am challenging him to do more and see the flaws of the system.

My teacher, he would tell me to just keep practicing and eventually I will come to my own truth and understanding on why the arts are not spread freely like I suggest. This is why I keep practicing. 
 

All the answers I’ve received regarding secrecy have been unsatisfactory, so I’m simply conveying my current views which will most certainly probably change as I progress. I’m sure many have similar views. If not, that’s fine  

I will be quiet now and let others discuss

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

But can you appreciate why this attitude might be distasteful to even a well-meaning teacher?

Sure. Doesn’t mean it’s not bullshit. I’d love for others to call me on my bullshit.
 

Would I be slightly angry at them? For a bit. But, it would make me reconsider a great deal of things, and I would actually admire them for it.

I am simply being myself and if that’s not good enough, so be it 🤷‍♂️

10 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

???

 

Secrecy in the arts is this big a deal for you, but you haven't asked your teacher why he prefers it that way? 

 

Just last week you were saying you thought questions should go by your teacher first.  What gives?

Because I like to have my own opinions. I’ve heard his answer before and didn’t find it satisfactory.

Just by disagreeing with Damo, I was kicked out of his academy. I don’t want to get kicked out and give up my chance of giving these arts to more.

He said, it’s like handing “nuclear codes to children.” And that those with the fate for the arts will find them naturally. Neidan is for the elite. Something I would label as bullshit in my mind.
 

I can see the whole danger argument, but I do not fully agree. Under the direct supervision of a teacher, the danger is negligible or much reduced. I believe there are ways that will come about to keep the practices safe and widespread. Simply put, I respectfully disagree but do not want to start conflict. And I believe it is the same for many in the scene. 
 

I do not care if he looks on this forum and connects the dots seeing that it is me. If he decides to kick me out for simply sharing information and opinion, I’ll just go live a normal life and be unburdened.

I’ve also already found other teachers just in case that I could go visit. You see, fear is a large part of maintaining secrecy. Damo’s community is dictatorship where he is free to revoke access to anyone he sees fit. I can freely call him on his bullshit here. But in his community, he has all the power.

15 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

If you say so 

To think otherwise is to think you are special. That is the beginning of entitlement.
 

There are millions of people capable of doing your practice the same way you do it with a healthy lifestyle. You aren’t special

2 hours ago, freeform said:

You can get all that from freely available material.

Can’t get the elixir from freely available material. Not even close

So, basically many people on here agree that secrecy is a major issue in the Daoist arts. Maybe for differing reasons. But, I’m glad we have acknowledged the elephant in the room here.

The Neidan I practice is pretty simple. You commit the hours. You eat correctly. You steadily improve over a number of years. As a result, your overall health and fate greatly improve.  Finding the practice is almost a harder task than actually practicing. Hence, the problem.

I cannot share more information because they forbid you from doing so. Something that I respect because maybe there is actually a good reason for it that my teacher can explain. Or, maybe it’s just the fear that I won’t be able to learn it that holds me back. It would be pointless to say anything more as I haven’t mastered them myself