Cleansox

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

I don't know about you but having once enjoyed Cleary's translations I now find him a bit lacking in depth.

I prefer Pregadio. 

Being a practicing buddhist doesn’t qualify Cleary to translate classics from the southern lineage, and sometimes that shines through. 

7 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Was Jung an enlightened one?  

Thomas Cleary says no. 

He has a bitchy footnote or so about Jung in his translation of the Golden Flower, if anyone is interested in that subject. 

Good one, thanks for sharing it! 

18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

That's interesting - could you develop that idea a bit more?

 

 

A person with secure attachment and a person with messed-up life experiences will react totally different, on all levels, in a stressful social situation. 

 

They might be placed side by side and therefore objectively should have close to the same sensory input, but on an interpretive level they might be way separated. 

 

This includes peripersonal space and the ability to interpersonal synchronisation, interpersonal space as the sensed (but not understood, since most people have no idea that the brain do not consider that "I" do not end with the skin) need for protective distance. 

 

(Yes, I'm a total science nerd, and I have trained myself to be aware of different levels of energetics.) 

32 minutes ago, Apech said:

The more I think about it, the more I see that subtle body and subtle realm 'phenomena' make continuous impact upon us.  Part of the problem with the modern (mostly western) view is that it denies this and attributes everything to the objective and physical.  There's a kind of weight in this western view which is very hard to get away from.  I think scientific dogmatism piggy backs on this ... which is a problem not because the western view is invalid but because it is incomplete (because apart from anything else it cannot account for the subtle or the causal levels of existence).

32 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Thoughts?

I think that as western model science developes, it will fill in blanks that at the moment are blind spots. I would disagree about the objective part, most seems to agree that it is the subjective experience of phenomena that affects us, including sensory information that we cannot readily relate to any specific objective situation. 

1 hour ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

 

 

So far it has only resulted in a few people telling me they could not or would not help, and several others wanting to argue about how stupid my questions are and how I should give up and quit being an idiot. 

 

 

So, with that feedback, have you looked at your questions again? 

If one gets the same kind of feedback from different persons, situated at different places (triangulating), they might have a point. 

 

We might never know since you are hesitant in popping any of those questions here. 

 

Now, the present mod team has a relatively low level of acceptance of rudeness, so it is not likely someone will call you an idiot here. But still, if you feel that any feedback that is not in line with your view is painful, you are probably following the right strategy. 

28 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Do you think this is cultural or something deeper?

Guess: Cultural. 

There is a difference between East and West that psychology research often confirm: In the west there is a focus on Me, as an individual. In the east, there is a greater identification with We. This changes how the brain works, and probably how we interpret things in the peripersonal space, the later being relevant to meditation practice. 

54 minutes ago, dindin said:

@forestofemptiness @Cleansox

 

I had this thought about taiji on back of my mind. Can you give me any pointers? Online resources?

I mentioned Paul Lam taichi for arthritis in a thread a couple of days ago. The reason I know about it is that a person I did some clinical research with a couple of years ago was trained in that method. But she also has 40 years of experience with psychiatric health care, as a physiotherapeut, so she understood how to use it for different patient groups. 

3 hours ago, dindin said:

 

Basically I want to know about practices helpful and safe for people with mental illness.

Clinically, really basic simplified short form taiji without any focus on qi has been used for decades to aid people suffering from psychotic episodes. Working with balance, gently correcting breathing patterns, using centered movement patterns and developing body awareness are key points. 

 

Avoiding sexual exercises and heavy visualisation is a good advice, as is avoiding methods where the primary objective is to activate a lot of energy. @RiverSnakeexplained why in your first thread. 

On 2021-01-22 at 6:07 AM, dindin said:

 

Thing I want to know if it is safe for a person like me to practice taoist sexual methods.

Not likely. Go to the Grotto section, read up on posts made by Desmonddf. 

On 2021-01-22 at 6:07 AM, dindin said:

And if there are other taoist methods which can help with mental health.

Yes. Finding a teacher willing to guide you through that might be difficult though, most teachers prefer cost-efficient students. 

On 2021-01-22 at 6:07 AM, dindin said:

 

Another thing I want to say is I am not fond of spiritual aspect of taoism. Or any other religion for that matter. You guys might find it off-putting and annoying.

Probably not, here, where diversity is the norm. 

On 2021-01-22 at 6:07 AM, dindin said:

I was and still am solely interested in physical aspect of taoism. Quite similar to yoga.

There are wonderful practices that grounds the mind in the body and in reality, just avoid the "powerful" stuff. 

Bradford Keeney: Shaking medicine. 

 

If one is interested in shaking rather than qigong. 

Paul Lam taichi for arthritis is on example. 

There are quite a lot of research on simplified short taiji forms for seniors. 

Try Google Scholar for references. 

47 minutes ago, awarenessrules said:

 

I am a Trauma survivor and have tried TRE 2 times only and it made me so sick for 2 months. It was horrible. I will never try TRE again. So will this type of Qigong shaking mentioned in OP trigger the same effects? I want to be extra cautious this time. On the other hand my immunity is very weak and read in OP  that it helps with immunity. Any suggestions for me?

Muscle stretching, slow weight shifting, basic abdominal breathing. 

That will work on your immune system, as well as have a positive effect on some of the trauma reactions. 

If the breathing bothers you, do less of that, although if you have any dysregulated breathing pattern this should be attended. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

 

Dude, you are not attentive. 

Actually, dude, I am attentive. 

But for every round of this we do, something is added, so it gets more complicated to follow 😊

8 hours ago, Antares said:

replied to you in other thread. I can repeat it once again. This is quote from Damo' book

 

He writes that "Neidan SITTING practices" WORK TOGETHER WITH QIGONG. This is nonsense. Can you quote any classic texts which support the idea that at the outset daoist practised sitting along with qigong?

The classic texts I have read do not mention position, not as I recall at least. They tend to focus on hiding the true method in as complex language as possible, while still leaving enough that the student who has the Keys to the code get guidance. 

 

Some of them dance between layers like butterflies around flowers; now here, now there, and now using one layer as a code for the other. Rather magnificent, actually. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

This can be preparatory to Neidan stage, yes, I agree but  not "NEIDAN SITTING PRACTICES" at the stage of "Laying the Foundation".

See below, some of that might fit here. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

If this book is about preparatory stage why he calls it "neidan sitting"?

This is a good point! 

Although the author doesn't think it is about the preparatory stage only, he thinks it goes further than that. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

What is "Laying the Foundation" in his lineage?  

He doesn't say, does he? 

And the curriculum at large is a amalgation of methods from different lineages, based on principles that should lead to proper foundations (a guess from my side!) But the entire curriculum mentioned in his books should cover the xin and the clearing of the channels. Or do you disagree on that, and why? 

 

Your problem here seems partially be about nomenclature, which can be a mess. Where does "Nei Dan practice" start? Can it differ between lineages? Isn't it likely that it changes between lineages? 

 

According to Wang Mu, Nei Dan proper is after clearing the channels (unsure if it includes replenishing or not). 

 

For the rest:

If we use Wang Mus book as a source for the process (since it is publicly available), he discuss xin methods followed by clearing the channels and then replenishing. The replenishing is the final part of laying the foundation. Unless one does not teach replenishing.... 

 

Cannot one do xin methods seated, or does those not count? 

 

Or, depending on how my poor unattentive mind is reading your post, are you saying that a person practicing Nei Dan is forbidden to practice qigong/daoyin/IMA anymore, unless one is calling it Moving Nei Dan which makes it ok? 

 

Or are you just miffed because Damo teaches differently that the school you adheres to, and you have an innate need to nag on that instead of talking about your own practice? 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

I provided many links. If you can not comprehend it, it is no my problem 

Yes, but the question is if you comprehend them. 

 

I'll give you a hint: If the text you quote combine the term "seated" or "sitting" with another term, the meaning change and might not be about just the fact that the ass is on the ground. 

 

If you can find a quote that just speak about the seated position, without adding terms that might be used for meditations related to Emptiness, but specifically is about this stage of Nei Dan, then you have support for your point. 

On 2021-03-27 at 2:45 PM, Antares said:

 

If you are familiar with any other sitting method which produces Yang then let us know provoding support for that statement that "sitting produces Yang". 

Ah, but it is you who are voicing a specific claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Me, on the other hand, is open for the idea that there are more ways to do a practice than I know of. 

On 2021-03-27 at 2:45 PM, Antares said:

 

In his book he writes that Neidan is done by sitting combining it with qigong and dao yin. I have never seen in texts that neidan is about practising qigong, dao yin and sitting. What does mean "so he should have his base covered"?

No, but before doing Nei Dan (if that starts with the reversal) one should go through the process of tong guan, which according to Wang Mu is a houtian practice. 

Wouldn't the curriculum in Lotus Neigong be sufficient for this? 

 

Wasn't this what you were referring to earlier? 

Or am I missing where in the process this discussion were? 

On 2021-03-27 at 2:45 PM, Antares said:

So we have no texts to cover the idea that sitting and qigong ca be considered as Neidan practise. You always asking me to bring you classic texts but you provided zero texts from your side. 

See above, you are the one claiming that this stage cannot be practiced seated, so it is you that should provide support. 

 

I haven't had the time to check up the development of this thread, I will do that and see if you or anyone else have provided that support or if the thread at large has moved in another direction. 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

 

What is "their opinion"? It' s not "their" but it is the excerpt from the book of "Teacher of Single Yang".  This is southern schools approach.

No. Until you have a quote from another source not directly dependent on that lineage, it is just the opinion of one lineage, stated to provide support for that lineages methods. 

 

I am asking if you have any independent, preferably classic, sources that validates that view, so it can be seen as a generalised principle/truth. 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

 

INFERIOR VIRTUE DOES. Does means DOING. If you have not replenished your Ming your "no doing" sitting will be pointless and harmful.

I haven't disagreed with this. 

But you have not shown any support (see my point above) that the "doing" cannot be performed while seated. 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

At least one needs to open up specific alchemical channels prior to sitting. There is the certain alchemical channel which is to be OPENED prior to sitting and this is described in southerns schools texts. You will not be able to open it while sitting and this comes from body/energy mechanics.

Ah, now you are referring to a text 😁. 

Please, quote and a reference please. That would be really helpful! 

 

But, opening the channels are not the only aspect of the stage we are discussing, there is also the replenishing. Are you also saying that the replenishing cannot be done seated, or can it be done seated and this discussion has really only have been about the clearing the channels stage (which Damo Mitchell is discussing, using moving, standing, and seated methods) ? 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

If you know these practices in Damo' school then disclose it please.

Since I have no relation to this school, I do not know what they have on their curriculum. 

I cannot see these methods in Damo's public material, compared to what I do there is a gap in his method at about the stage I believe we are discussing, but that is not because he teaches seated methods (and he mentions moving and standing practices in his curriculum as well, so he should have his base covered). 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

From what I read in his book and I repeat it again and again, Damo teaches sitting as main method combining it with qigong and dao yin which have small relation to neidan if any at all 

Ah, this is the hard one. 

Who has the right to define what is Nei Dan" when traditions have branched out over more than a millennia? 

 

But if you refer to the reversal process coming from Zhan Boduans legacy, sure, you seems to be right. 

 

Question: Is there a universal agreement in daoist circles in China that this is the only true Nei Dan practice? 

I haven't read up on that so I would accept you knowledge of that subject. 

 

There seems to be a few teachers with lineages and stuff that use the term differently, but they might all be scammers and frauds. 

And the skeleton? 

Post-dinner Christ, when mama bear prioritizes her cubs dinner before her own salvation? 

16 minutes ago, David W said:

Thank you Master Logray. Can I ask you then why certain lineages base the attainment of perfection through encountering ‘cosmic’ entities within the internal grottos?

Because "nei dan" is an umbrella term, in reality "anything goes". 

The Zhong-Lu tradition isn't the only one. 

16 minutes ago, David W said:

 Specifically, are you saying the pinnacle of development within Neidan is accomplished without the contact of any beings from the Daoist pantheon?

Since some Nei Dan practitioners have had immortal teachers, do you consider them "beings from the Daoist panthenon"? 

 

And, which tradition would be considered the pinnacle? 

 

Except, by all means, mine.... 😁 

A lot of these questions are gone through in detail in Damo Mitchell's books, his A comprehensive guide to Daoist Nei Gong is a good way to get started. 

But enhancing @RiverSnake, flexibility is useful, body building is not. At least in this context.

Having a strong body on the other hand is useful. 

 

The book mentioned above will also give you an idea of how to start, and what you might find useful to be proficient in before going into Nei Dan. 

 

There is an answer to your question about horse stance there as well, so... 

16 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

I would prefer to speak with people who who have a degree in eastern religions or some similar qualification. 

Then why pop the question on a forum like this, when an hour of Google fu centered on major universities would give you these names, and the research areas they have delved in?

 

Google Project Muse, there you will find journals where many of the major players publish their stuff. Expensive, but priceless when you hit the right article. 

 

On the other hand, if you write about your questions and specifically ask for academic references, you might get what you want. Quite a few persons here actually read books. 

 

Spending some time here formulating your questions and doing some litterature studies before asking those scholars would also be a way of showing respect. 

A world class academic rarely think that answering a question one could find out for one self is time well spent. 

21 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Discussions like this always seem to turn into flame wars here. 

Just like the academic world then. 

On 2014-12-10 at 9:26 AM, Taoist Texts said:

 

It was more complicated than that. The story is , he has not believe his first master and quit. After a considerable time he has found another one, who refused to teach him explicitly, but gave him a confucian canon to read instead. Liu's understanding came from reading a confucian book. So much for the 'Barrier of bookishness'.

It's funny how we interpret texts in different ways. 

When looking at the vignettes corresponding to this conclusion, I see the following:

1) Liu gets instructions, but only grasps the first part. 

2) Liu seeks out another teacher, doesn't understand his verbal teaching but after studying a text finally get the point. 

3) Liu, at last, get clear verbal instructions on methods that teachers usually are reluctant to teach. 

 

This relates nicely to the discussions between Taoist Texts and the WLP crew a few years back, where the idea of whether a teacher was mandatory or not.