Mskied

In order to know, a person must prepare, and then execute.  Think and then do.  Conceive and then create.  Seduce and then make love.  Run and then rest. Cook and then eat.  Indulge in something, embrace the senses of experience, and then comment.

I believe in "Do What Thou Wilt" because I believe that children should be allowed to experiment and create.  Its necessary for our evolution to design, and to redesign, and without the power to do that- were we all to be so restricted to one method; there would be no new invention, and the experience of life would suffer to some degree.  I also believe that we cannot possibly master harm none, and as that is the case, there will always be the need to do what must be done in the light of injustice.

So I wanted to go over this for those that are new to the Golden Dawn and Crowley, and of course, my Wiccan friends.  Wicca isn't as detailed but they can participate as well, because they are a school of Magick, and have a Law that I like.

A friend of mine is Wiccan and he chose to be it because he told himself that Christianity was not the Truth, but at its heart, Wicca is so much like Christianity that it shocks me that he hates it so much.  He hates it because of the obvious restrictions they put upon themselves as they harm none- and to me, Christ explains this better than nearly anyone.  The Wiccan says "Do What Thou Will, harm none" but in doing, there are so many areas that we can cause harm, and Christianity is so very aware of this on so many levels.  Anyway, I am not here to discuss these so much as tie this together if I can.

The Golden Dawn has a book by the Ciccero's that explains initiation very well.  Better, I think, than Crowley does.  Crowley is a little too cluttered up for me, but for the well read and researched, he does a good job.  Unfortunately for me I was led to Crowley first, and it took years to understand, when this book titled "Self initiation into the Golden Dawn" sets it out more clearly.  They set it out clearly because in order to use this book you need nothing but one ideal:  what is your Law?  You go from there and create your astral form, and engage in life movements according to this Truth, and imagine scenarios for future reference.  

Declaring a Law is important because this is your primary comprehension of what should be.  All traditions have different rules and for me, I never committed to one because I couldn't find what that rule was.  That is why I am fond of personal Magick, because it lets me find it first, and then I can come to these other traditions and compare.

So what is your rule?  If it is "Do What Thou Wilt", then there really is nothing to hold you back in the sense of rules, except that as you go about this you start to acquire some because you don't want to keep making the same mistakes.  On a global level, in order to be an effectual sage or leader, one needs to know their rule, so that they can gather followers of their Wisdom, and see their Will enacted.  This is very important too in personal relationships, for we should want to see our Will accomplished in arguments.

What is the Rule of the Universe?  If you look at history, it seems that they with the biggest knife or the most logical idea is king, and this has been true for millennia.  Is this Good?  For those of us at the bad end of the knife, no, it is not, and that is why great Masters have come to declare new rules to disarm the war faring Kings.  As I said before, there should be one "right" way, from a view of holding all life as valuable and sacred, to do things.  This way would entail a prosperous method for all people to interact with the goings on of civilization in a way that harms none of us, and benefits us all, and one of these benefits is personal happiness.  In a perfect world that includes no harm, there would be no perversions to happiness such as self pain, so you can throw out the idea that happiness includes harming ones self.  Whether this is something we can accomplish ever remains to be seen.  Some great people say that life is suffering and unavoidable, and when you consider our environment and the effort of our labor, and accidents in handling these things, it is True, but that does not mean we should take joy in them; for they are something to manage and work against.

So if what I put forth is the rule, and in light of watching society, I think the movers of change believe this to be True, then from here we move forward in creating ourselves in flow of that Truth.  As we are probably not exposed to other people that work for this goal, we have accumulated methods that might cause harm to ourselves and others, and it is this that we need to dismantle should we move forward seeking the light of this idea.  If not, we are part of the stream that the modern idealists fight against, and will find conflict among them.  

One of the ideas I have is that we cannot always know the consequences of our choices before making them, and so we will suggest to ourselves and to others to try some things.  This is natural from a state of ignorance as we mature, and my only advice here is that when you suggest to someone else an action, you include your hope for outcome, and create a sort of contract to follow through with whatever comes.  Contracts are essential:  this is one of the most important things we must master, for in offering an idea for action, we must receive the agreement on the other participants before moving forward.  As I said, we cannot always know the outcome, but if the idea is presented in the best fashion with the outcome clearly proposed, all parties that agree will have to accept the outcome of that arrangement.  What comes to mind in terms of this are the unspoken rules of courtship and friendship, for nearly all other agreements are formed around rules with certain expected results for co-operation.  The social contract of a society has its government to administer Laws of public space, but so much of our strife and grief comes from arrangements we make in the pursuit of friendly bonds and marriages.  These things need to be discussed lest we wind up with ignorant resentments and broken hearts.  I really believe that Love, as great a gift as it is, is the great battleground of suffering.  Laws are made on Love- for when we are fair, we Love, and when we co-operate, we Love, and when we share, we Love, and when we make arrangements to agree, it is because we come to realize something Good for all parties, and that is a Loving intention on the part of a group of people; that all of us benefit.  Therefore Love Truly is the Law, for it is what we base our Laws upon.

It seemed fitting, as he is named after tea.

Judging in my opinion comes with a sentence.  I have reconciled this with the idea that I am indeed meant to evaluate, but not condemn, for if I withhold my assessment, I learn nothing, and can contribute no Wisdom of opinion.  Now, when it comes to administering opinion, I have found that lest someone call for it, to keep it hidden- but not to forget it, for life is learning, and we learn not only from experience, but observation.  I think it is crucial to asses, and to turn that upon ourselves as well, for it is how we learn.  There is much ignorance to be found from all sides- not only from our own "enlightened" point of view, but from the mind of someone we call "ignorant".  I believe that all people are enlightened based upon their own interpretation and experience, though I struggle with the concept that there is higher Truth- for the higher Truth involves what is right, and what is right?  It is based upon a safe and healthy journey for all, working together for all, and happiness for all.  If this be the measure, then yes, we are meant to assess, and to judge- and to condemn.  If not, then truly, judge not lest ye be judged.

Some of you don't end!  Its hilarious!  But really, Im going to have to let you go now.  Id rather spend my time considering other things.  

lol.  Fool.

Stop trying to do this.  I already passed the trial of Set

Just now, Zork said:

Oh really?! Can you point an example on history where a king became a beggar and a king again?

If not then don't even dare responding!

The Buddah

Your mode of conversation reminds me of the grade school playground.  How original.

You really are quite trite!  And a bore, really.

Save your insults for people that don't try.  You really are proving to be quite a turd.

you are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you.

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

You are mentioning the events, but you aren’t explaining how they prove your point.

 

That is as useless as me crying out random names of intellectuals and making YOU reason out how that supports my argument.
 

The burden of proof is on you, not me to figure out what is going on in the abysmal depths of that hollow space where your brain should be located.

 

So: explain, don’t just give the name of the historical events.

Ill do what I want, when I want, and if you don't want to think, that's on you.

44 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Which is why I felt that Crowleys answer to the problems of imperfect civilization is not good enough because he did not take the steps to alter the affairs of man, only to liberate them to alter them, according to their Will, and not with reasonable observations about what makes a safe and healthy society

Crowley did one thing:  he restated a fact that had been somewhat concealed from the masses, and that is:  history.  Mankinds history is filled with stories about how warfaring kings made their fortunes and kingdoms off of war- basically, Do What Thou Wilt.  Crowleys idea was that on an individual level, we should all be doing this. It really wasn't that new at the time, but it was something that was probably being concealed by the governing bodies- something that still goes on today.  We are kept ignorant of history, mostly because the Jews/Christians want us to pretend that love is the answer, and that we should not kill.  That is not Truth, and it isn't how the elite play.  Crowley was sick of this, thought it unjust- said that we all deserve the right to have our liberties too!  He was pissed, and justifiably so- that we are kept sheep while other men get fat.  He created Thelema so that all men could engage in this Divine Right of having power, and being able to be satisfied.  He poo pooed the "life is suffering, desire is suffering" and justifiably so, for it is not the desire that is suffering, it is not getting it!  

I complained about Do What Thou Wilt because it didn't satisfy my thought that we should indeed not hurt each other in the pursuit of our want, and the best I could come up with was "Do not obstruct" and I defined this well, and the Gods cheered, but one voice said "No" and if one says no, then I must keep working.  Locke had already proposed this anyway, so I keep trying.  Do not obstruct is good, but not good enough for those without power, and if there are any without power, then the whole thing must fall.  

Crowley was right, in a sense, because it is something we individually and collectively need to work on, and he proposed his share of ideas on how to make this right, as we all should.  I am simply doing my part.

um... the Revolutionary War?  Martin Luther King?  The French Revolution?  

If you want to thwart privilege, or grant privilege to a people that have none, do what thou wilt to bring about that change.  What else can you do?

If the wisdom that his phrases represent mean nothing, then why post them here?

Of course I’m crazy, but that doesn’t mean that I’m wrong

This is a pretty clearly stated phrase, one which you seem to want to deny.

12 minutes ago, Zork said:

in a word NO.

I already told you that you can't have freedom of choice and destiny. It is either/or.

Freedom of choice is to be able to choose to rule a state one day and live as a beggar the other and the third to be a ruler again. That is freedom. No human being has ever experienced that.

Youre wrong.  I have the freedom TO TRY to rule a state, and the freedom to CHOOSE to live as a beggar.  Whether I actually accomplish that is another thing.

And what, exactly, makes your information a shinier diamond than my opinion?  When it comes to someones ideas, my opinion should be taken into consideration as well as anyone elses.  The real dispute that caused this is Crowley- and when I said that Crowley said we have the right to kill for what we believe- he said it himself!  But Nungali thinks otherwise.  Do What Thou Wilt is the liberty to do just that, and nothing short of that.  People get caught up in his ideas about True Will, and I am on his side about what that is, and I have gone to great lengths to help people find that thing, as is written in my thread "Knowledge is simple"  

That will fit if you believe that there is something outside of manifest reality that guides us, and I suppose that could be true, but as we are not only potentially that, we are also choice, the only answer is what we call Free Will, and so both take part.  Both are equal parts of our ability to control and interact with destiny.

Which is why I felt that Crowleys answer to the problems of imperfect civilization is not good enough because he did not take the steps to alter the affairs of man, only to liberate them to alter them, according to their Will, and not with reasonable observations about what makes a safe and healthy society

You can have complete freedom in choice but the events in which you are put into are set in motion prior to your interaction, and so, the events themselves make up destiny, and this is something we can alter- with freedom of choice.

Just now, Earl Grey said:

nor does it mean you’re right!

nor you.  When it comes to what other people have said, I am probably wrong, because 

1.  I have not invested myself in reading and thinking about what they said and

2.  The only person that can really understand someone is the person speaking.  Its very difficult to declare that we "know" what any other person means or intends- as language is faulty.  

All matter of observation is always and ever will be only opinion.  This is an old philosophical argument.  When it comes to my opinion, only I am right about what I experience.  Same for you.  When it comes to actual facts of events- there is the actual result- this man shot that man, and the facts; this man shot that man BECAUSE....

2 minutes ago, Zork said:

How he reacts is part of purpose. People either take over or accept. I was very specific when i said he might turn a scammer. He might play victim or try to actively participate despite handicaps. Blind men/women are just examples of someone who was born with a handicap due to race, colour, nationality or religion. Even within the same country, would you ever expect a black president in the 1940s? Don't be an idiot and tell me that people didn't try to gain equal rights....

Now can you please tell me how a black guy "could take his destiny into his own hands" in say 1800 in New Orleans?

You are implying that it was their fault that they were not free let alone run for mayors.

This goes back to the Law of Do What Thou Wilt.  We are free to accept what is, or change it.  To live free or die for freedom.  These people had obstacles, but they could have fought against them.

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Translation: “I have the right to be right through self-initiation and self-appointed authority to argue the merits of self-serving logic, whether it makes sense to anyone else or not! I have the right to be wrong about my interpretation and the right to argue that I am still right!”

exactly!

Of course I’m crazy, but that doesn’t mean that I’m wrong