wandelaar

@ Stosh You still don't get it? I am not proposing the rules of thumb to be considered as commandments. And yes, Lao tse did illustrate his way of life with rules of thumb, Chuang tse used stories. You may not like it and you're free to create your own way. But this topic is not about your way, it's about the rules of thumb used by Lao tse and Chuang tse. And those rules of thumb don't suddenly disappear if you (or even the majority of Bums) don't like them. But we have been through that discussion before, and I don't plan to do it again.

Still wondering why people keep on telling me what I already said myself in the very first post that started this topic....

Can you imagine a point in the plane being determined by two numbers x and y: one (x) for the horizontal position and one (y) for the vertical position?

Great or small? What's the difference? By the way - when you do take relativistic effects into account one could still accelerated with 1G according to the guy in the spaceship but the folks at home would see the spaceship approaching the speed of light but never quite reaching it.

I like that one. And it would probably suffice for a hermit.

@ Marblehead That is not the problem. One could conceivably build a spaceship that accelerates with just 1 G. When the world were such a place that there were no such things as relativistic effects one would then after some time reach the speed of light and after that go even faster.

Could you give a practical example to see how that works? A paradoxical sentence from the Tao Te Ching would be nice.

That's the way I think it should work. When you have tried enough you're subconscious mind should about be ready to point the way...

Good idea!

Could you please post a simple quote, so I can see what you mean to say?

Letting go would have been enough when we still lived a natural life somewhere in the woods or in some cave. Then you could just fall back on what you instinctively already know what to do. (Such as sleeping at night.) Animals don't go to school. That's why I think so many Taoists of old were hermits. It greatly simplifies things to the point where you already know all you have to, and the only thing left is to let go of all conscious striving. But now suppose our hermit got lost in a place where his instinctual responses were no longer appropriate (like modern society ). Would he still get by without conscious striving? Don't think so. And about Lao tse and Chuang tse, I guess those guys knew what they were talking about. You're right - they did promote letting go. But could they have done so and actually live by it if they had not first learned about their society and wise and subtle ways to behave in it? So I think Taoism nicely complements Confucianism. Or in modern terms: "letting go" complements "conscious training". Starting with letting go will get us into trouble, as we are not instinctively prepared to live in modern society. Simple example: I often see care free easy going youth effortlessly throwing away cans, plastic bags or what have you on the streets and in the woods. They follow their natural instincts, just like an animal throwing away the left over indigestible parts of their food. That's what happens when the aspect of conscious training is neglected and letting go is considered the end-all and be-all of the road.

The problem in reaching the speed of light isn't human limitations here, but the relativistic mass that grows without bounds as you approach the speed of light. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity#Relativistic_mass

You cannot, it would take an infinite amount of energy to reach that speed.

Anybody read this book? https://books.google.nl/books?id=id_HbDAQnlcC

Well - it has not officially been closed. Thanks for your additions.

@ liminal luke Don't think I have much more to say on this topic. It has degenerated into silly nitpicking about words. The rules of thumb it was to be about are derived from Lao tse and Chuang tse themselves who had no problem at all with illustrating their approach of life by way of rules of thumb and stories about what to do. So I expected some interesting posts from people studying and practicing Taoism. And it started out well, but soon the sheer idea of "rules" (in whatever form) proved too much to swallow for some Bums. And as a result the discussion of Taoism in the spirit of Lao tse and Chuang tse was effectively drowned in claims that nothing concrete can be said about Taoism, Taoist rules of thumb, or a Taoist way of life. But Lao tse and Chuang tse did just that! It's time to stop and accept that the topic has run its course. Nothing more is to be expected. To bad, but that's life.

@ Stosh That's an entirely different question. I don't even claim the Taoist rules of thumb to be wise. And there may be lots of situations that are not covered by the list. But that's all beside the point. I'm only trying to collect them in a list for further consideration.

@ Stosh That is not the point here. And rule of thumb is just the best term I could find. The rules in effect suggest ways of operating. Nothing more and nothing less. In fact it's somewhat the same as if a friend who's general approach to life you appreciate, recommended you to proceed in a certain manner. There is no moral obligation involved, and you don't have follow up the advise. But that doesn't make it any less valuable.

Thank you! Indeed, I purposely called them rules of thumb to avoid the idea of absolute moral obligations. It's still we who do or do not choose to follow those rules of thumb.

I am getting kind of tired of this ritualized rule-bashing. It looks like many reactions are delivered on automatic pilot. He there! Some guy is proposing rules! Lets put an end to it! But my list of rules of thumb ended with the rule: So what's the problem? It is just some rules you may or may not follow depending on circumstances. And furthermore: I didn't invent those rules, they are modernized paraphrases of recommendations made by Lao tse and Chuang tse. Two (possibly legendary) founding fathers of Taoism. So there is every reason to call those rules Taoist. That is - unless my interpretations of those rules are wrong or my list is seriously incomplete. And that is why I started this topic: to ask for comments on the correctness and completeness of the Taoist list of rules of thumb.

In that case someone else will have to search for it, because I am no good at symbolic interpretations.

http://tao-in-you.com/lao-tzu-tao-te-ching-chapter-10/

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daoist_meditation http://www.laotzu.org/meditation.html But I have to admit that the original descriptions are not very clear.

I'm already thoroughly familiar with riding a bike, it's my only means of transportation. I don't even remember how and when I learned it as a child. But that's not the point. The point is that I consider it extremely unlikely that someone could just effortlessly learn some kind of art without putting in a lot of conscious effort and in this way jump straightaway from the stage of novice to the stage of master in the few minutes. But if it is indeed possible I like to learn about it.

Instead of moving beyond rules by using them when they seem to apply and ignoring them when they don't, it has become the new rule or dogma to indiscriminately attack all rules. It's yin and yang indeed, but they have become separated. Ideological fashions swing back and forth without finding a higher synthesis. It's like either you're for or against. Happily Lao tse had no problem with rules of thumb, and his Tao Te Ching uses them to great effect.