senseless virtue

TDB member "小梦想" has issued a warning against Fragrant Qigong practice:

 

46 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Be very careful with that practice, it's not something I would ever recommend to anyone. It seems great in the beginning, later it causes problems. There is a reason it was outlawed, more than just the large number of people it attracted.

 

 

I asked him in return:

 

19 minutes ago, virtue said:

You wish to teach people. Then you have publicly issued a warning against another well-known teaching with good reputation, but the actual reasons are completely vague so far.

 

You should consider my question as a serious interview and opportunity to show your in-depth understanding and prove that you have no undue bias despite the apparent controversial stance.

 

小梦想 has agreed to discuss the matter in detail in a more appropriate place, so here is a long-running Fragrant Qigong discussion thread for that. Hopefully we will get in-depth explanations now.

3 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

It's not really the purpose of this thread. I don't recommend it, but if you like it and want to do it, go for it. 

 

You wish to teach people. Then you have publicly issued a warning against another well-known teaching with good reputation, but the actual reasons are completely vague so far.

 

You should consider my question as a serious interview and opportunity to show your in-depth understanding and prove that you have no undue bias despite the apparent controversial stance.

Just now, 小梦想 said:

Be very careful with that practice, it's not something I would ever recommend to anyone. It seems great in the beginning, later it causes problems. There is a reason it was outlawed, more than just the large number of people it attracted.

 

This is the first time that I hear someone saying anything negative about the Fragrant Qigong practice.

 

Can you please share what are your experiences with it and why you think that "it causes problems later"?

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Been looking myself.

 

When I look hard enough for something really special, I usually find that it doesn't exist and needs personal involvement to make the vision into a materialized product.

 

A perfectly profitable book idea that will appeal to all audiences world wide. Wouldn't you feel qualified for or interested in such a project? Or am I simply threading by the tiger's tail in vain?

 

Hexagram 10: Cautious Advance. "He treads on the tail of the tiger. The tiger bites the man. Misfortune."

 

2 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Hexagram 63, Mission Accomplished.  "Soaking one's tail, no trouble."

 

 

Where can I buy the I Ching of Cats? 

On 8/20/2021 at 3:02 PM, Apech said:

if I was a young man and not a grey haired old cat I would hop on a plane

 

Yeah. Some might confuse your coughing of hairballs for Covid19 symptoms and deny your boarding.

On 8/19/2021 at 11:59 PM, Antares said:

Authentic methods on the Qi accumulation in regard to the MCO opening have had nothing to do with breath/mind work at all. All such the methods are based on post haven and "muddy" Qi and if you take it up by intent it can harm your energy and balance. 

Authentic methods are based on pre heaven Qi cultivation only. No books, videos, articles, qigong methods can help you establish MCO

 

Where did you get this stuff? It sounds like skillful hyperbole, although it's not entirely wrong.

 

Your last sentence is flawed: There in fact are valid Qigong methods (including videos) that can activate the pre-heaven Qi and thus establish the correct MCO. Fragrant Qigong is one of these. If you had argued that MCO was rare and difficult to accomplish through any given commonly available method, then I would had agreed.

 

Yet, it's an undoubtedly classical error in some "Qigong" teachings that they would lead to accumulating so-called post-heaven Qi. This working is a bit like trying to subtly stir and force emotions to control each other, but it would only add more of unstable and emotionally volatile energy to one's body-mind. The orthodox way is to harmonize post-heaven Qi into peace (preliminary training through Neigong and ethics) and then proceed with accumulating pre-heaven Qi through tranquility (which may not be a trivial thing at all).

 

The difficulty with the term "Qigong" is that both post-heaven Qi harmonization and pre-heaven Qi accumulation can be covered with it. These tend to be separately trained and it's often fairly simple to guess into which category a practice belongs, but there exist truly holistic and esoteric arts like Fragrant Qigong which transcend common conceptualizations and categorizations. It just works.

 

There are more nuances to the discussion, but it's important to not be lead astray by simple catch-all labels and terms.

 

15 minutes ago, refugeindharma said:

I've always wondered what the ancients used to wash themselves with... I don't think it was with chemically enhanced soaps and shampoos like we use these days though 

 

The same type of soap as I use: organic goat's milk soap. 

Great topic, but I fear it might reinforce the stereotype that Bums lack in hygiene.

 

In terms of cleanliness it's still worlds ahead of people who give orgasms at distance to random strangers or eat junk food. Balanced and health intestinal flora is another great and somewhat pertinent topic that should be discussed elsewhere.

 

 

On 8/1/2021 at 4:15 AM, steve said:

 here years ago during the Buddhist wars.

The great Internet Buddhist wars? When and where did this happen?

 

What was it about? Entirely compassionately helping others to let go of their illusions that were exchanged on message boards?

On 7/29/2021 at 10:34 PM, Samoobramba said:

preaty good IMA systems are from Richard Clear, Bruce Kumar Frantzis

 

I offer a counterpoint on these two at least: Nope. Better look elsewhere.

Good news. It's a smart design choice that goes well with the overall functionality of The Dao Bums.

 

It immediately addresses the concern that people don't always have civil discussion and debate, but resort to subversive tactics and repeat propaganda. I really hope it works for the quality, although I suspect that PPJs are anyways taking on the most active part of vaccine discussion.

 

My own forum (Alchemical Garden) had a similar announcement or reminder that current events do not belong to the timeless discussion topics that we want and specialize in.

 

On 8/3/2021 at 3:36 AM, steve said:

You will need to have a post count of at least 50 to be granted access.

 

 

The bar is hoisted for newcomers. Gotta post faster and harder to earn this new Bum trophy!

@Nuralshamal How you write is nebulous, and I suspect you are doing it on purpose. You also move goal posts when others bring up their concerns about what you have written. That does not make for good nor respectful discussion.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Just to clarify, when I shared about the similarities between yoga, meditation and qigong, it was simply to put things into perspective.

 

Which perspective? Your own alone. You would need to add this caveat to everything you write.

 

How you now present your observations is as if there was some universal acceptance or universal authority supporting them. It's only you, however, unless you can provide direct quotes from your teachers and classic spiritual source texts that are readily available and verifiable. I'm sure you would not have difficulty providing the latter such since you stipulate that there is proven and wide ground for your thesis.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Yes, it makes sense not to mix systems! Always practice under the guidance of a true teacher that's the best guidance and protection.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

I don't mix the systems up and try to do "my own thing". I follow the guidance as given by the teachers I've learnt from.

 

Yet you seem completely fine in offering "your own thing" and opinion as an infallibly secure foundation and selling it with the so-far unproven association to several recognized teachers, thus giving the false impression that there is any trustworthiness or reliability whatsoever in what you write.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

The breath holding is a part of the jing to qi step, strengthening and refining your jing (physical body) and cultivating and strengthening your qi (energy).

The continous and simultaneous cultivation of both your jing, qi and shen, through body, breath and posture is a very important part of Master Wu's qigong. It's important in every qigong, using your body, breath (including mantras) and your mind.

Chunyi Lin mentions it too, using body, breath, mantras and the mind.

So, holding one's breath is simply one breathing method, which strengthens and refines your jing, and cultivates and strengthen your qi.

 

This is how you are using botched logic to make insufficient justification or conclusion on each paragraph:

 

1. "Breath holding" introduced to general Qigong verbiage.
2. Two sentences of horrible grammar and seemingly tautological statements. Attempt to carry over more Qigong verbiage credibly.
3. Appeal to Chunyi Lin's authority through Qigong verbiage.
4. Therefore, "breath holding" is a valid method.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

The posture and the mind then distributes the above mentioned benefits to particular parts of the body, the 5 organ systems, the 3 dan tien, or whichever part of your body is in need of extra healing.

 

You claim posture and mind distributing anything—what is the basis for your claim?

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Actually, even my genital weight lifting and sexual qigong teacher also talked about the importance of holding the breath. And how to hold one's breath, focus on the place that needs healing, and simply rub it with your hand, is one of the best and most basic self-healing techniques.

 

I think you are just making a subtle but rude joke here.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

I believe even Chunyi Lin has mentioned that the yin and yang harmonizes inside the body, when one holds the breath. And his qigong is one of the most gentle ones out there.

 

Do you with absolute certainty represent Chunyi Lin's opinion here? If not, then why should anyone trust your hearsay as you admit as much with the word "believe"?

 

What exactly does Chunyi Lin's Qigong "being gentle" has to do with your previous argument, or anything at all that you have brought up so far?

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

So, it's almost every teacher I've learnt from, who has talked about the benefits of this particular breathing method.

 

Who exactly did not speak of the benefits?

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Actually, I haven't had a single teacher who has not talked about this particular breathing exercise, namely holding the breath.

 

Let's assume your teachers have all talked about continuous breath holding like you say.

 

Then I ask: Have all your teachers directly endorsed continuous breath holding as a fundamental part of their practice or what they teach to students? If so, then please provide direct references which everyone can examine and confirm whether it's true or not.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

But from what I can see in this thread, most don't like it, think it's dangerous, or say that it's very rare, and have never been taught this method. I respect that, we're all unique, we all have our own beliefs and preferences, and of course practice different systems.

 

All these misleading allusions to others' opinions are logically invalid straw man arguments. You show poor regard when others courteously brought up very specific instances why and where there was a potential misuse of terms or training conventions.

 

You also acknowledge directly in the above quote that some have not been taught the breath holding method, yet below in the next quote...

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

For me personally, it's one of the staple breathing exercises I've seen in every single system I've ever studied, no matter if Indian, Sufi, Chinese, Tibetan or even just western fitness training with swimming and diving. So to me, it's very apparent that it's a good and proven method used widely.

 

...you insist that there is some universality to your claims.

 

I think you are a very elaborate troll and I award you 8/10 for the effort. It was pretty well done and I am sure that a few users have sincerely given you the benefit of doubt.

 

Would you like to share what motivated you to join The Dao Bums and engage in trolling?

On 7/25/2021 at 8:35 PM, Vajra Fist said:

I got bombarded with Facebook ads from Vahava Fitness and his teacher Hisham al-Haroun for a while.

 

I was curious until I saw they were charging $3000 for beginner courses comprising a few videos. The guy seems quite an accomplished martial artist, but honestly I got bad vibes from him.

 

It's ridiculous pricing.

 

The promises of "semen retention and transforming semen" and "how to look after your penis and testicles during prolonged semen retention and celibacy" are common misused tropes to lure the unwary.

Image removed for being redundant to the discussion.

4 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Feel free to correct me.

 

Rest easy: The Dao Bums is not a correctional facility, and I'm not here to correct anyone.

50 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

So, we actually completely agree on the fundamental message: holding the breath is important.

 

Are you completely sure?

 

50 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

I don't feel any need for discussing this further.

 

As you wish.

18 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

I know the tibetan buddhists also practice this a lot.

 

This, like many other things you write, feels like it's out of touch and unrepresentative of its proper context.

 

Outside of Yantra Yoga and Tummo practices, breath retention isn't common at all in Tibetan Buddhism. Then you have omitted mentioning integral parts of these sadhanas such as muscle locks that seal the energy in certain ways and activate particular pathways. There's no way this could be comfortably compared to simple breath retention: If it were so, then free divers (and other such athletes) would be among the most accomplished yogis in the world, which is untrue.

1 hour ago, EFreethought said:

What is this referring to?

 

You can look it up and search O@D or "orgasm at distance" on this forum, but it may lead to bewilderment and more perplexing questions than real answers.

 

Some stones are better left unturned. Take care.

3 minutes ago, stirling said:

From my perspective it is the obscurations of the asker that limit the quality of the answers.

 

Yes, it's karma.

 

The non-dual view is true, but not really instructive from the mundane perspective.

33 minutes ago, stirling said:

Remember that oracles are merely mirrors - they don't REALLY tell you anything you don't know.

 

I don't agree with this.

 

The oracle divulges in depth information when it's karmicly optimal, but receiving such knowledge may be limited because of the divination format and one's inability to ask good questions.

How long have you trained Spring Forest Qigong? Have you experienced any side effects that manifest around McDonald's restaurants? Common ones include giving spontaneous and unsolicited 3rd eye transmissions to complete strangers.

Quote

The negative aspects are that he is quite expensive

 

Why do people pay courtesan prices with supposedly genuine spiritual teachers?

 

All the really accomplished and dedicated teachers I've met and heard about disregard money as fairly unimportant, hence there is no relationship based on money which really would cheapen the nature of the spiritual practice even.

On 7/19/2021 at 6:56 PM, Nuralshamal said:

a) semen retention and transforming semen

b ) how to look after your penis and testicles during prolonged semen retention and celibacy

 

These are not the signs of a credible teaching system.

 

On 7/19/2021 at 6:56 PM, Nuralshamal said:

This I feel to be extremely, extremely powerful.

 

Feelings are not any certain indicative of internal progress. Often these imply an unbalanced state of mind that stirs excess energetic activity.

 

On 7/19/2021 at 6:56 PM, Nuralshamal said:

If you want to experience your physical body change in ways there can be NO DOUBT about, I recommend checking him out!

 

Your writing could pass for a very energetic sales pitch. Do you receive any referral reward for bringing in new students?

50 minutes ago, freeform said:

Can someone achieve the Jhannas with no Qi cultivation?

 

This would be an excellent separate topic even! 

 

The classical Mahayana Buddhist view implicitly posits that the condition of people and societies changes with time, so therefore the enlightened masters and aspiring Bodhisattvas reveal new practices to fit the contemporary needs. It's been remarked in some sources that during the more innocent times in the past people had much purer bodies and less emotional issues to begin with. This is one explanation why we don't have direct Jhanna cultivation these days and why even the stereotypically meditative Buddhist traditions (Theravada vipassana styles and Ch'an Buddhism) cultivate liberating insight as their means of attaining good Qi and stable mind foundation first before attempting to realize any type of Dhyana realms.