Lost in Translation

God is Mystery. God is beyond description. Any attempt to describe what God "is" or "isn't" is destined to fail miserably. I struggle with this. I want very much to believe in a loving Sky-Daddy, but I don't think it works that way.

I agree. We are here to learn from one another. If you are willing to share I think we would all appreciate courteous clarification in this matter.

Twist smile?

I love where this conversation is going, but there is one thing I alluded to in my original post that we really haven't discussed. This is fear. Everything changes. If something changes 'enough' then it appears as destruction, thus nothing lasts forever. We all know this. So the desire for immortality is, at its core, a desire to not change - to hold on to what we have and remain. This desire to not change looks to me like fear of change. Put it this way: If a child wanted to remain a child forever he would fear growing up. If a youth wanted to remain a youth forever he would fear growing old. If a man wanted to live forever he would fear death. But children do grow up, and youths do grow old, and men do die. So we've talked about the how of immortality. What's the why of immortality?

I'm really enjoying this thread. You guys have done a great job illustrating differences between Taoist approaches to immortality and Buddhism. Thank you to everyone.

This is very easy to understand. Thank you for your clarity.

Very cool. I never thought about it from that point of view. How do you reconcile the "outside" with what we experience day to day? It's one thing to say I am already outside (immortal), but I feel very much inside (mortal). Non-dual stuff hurts my head...

This description is beautiful. Thank you! So how does immortality apply here? Is it that your sense of self is so strong as to persist forever, or persist longer? Or is it that you never die in the first place?

I hear this a lot, and it makes a certain amount of sense. But it also implies that "you" (manifest self) are not "You" (spirit self). Which further inplies that "you" (manifest) cannot actually be immortal. I'm trying to get a handle on that.

Awesome. Thank you! But how is cultivating 'energy and spirit to a certain level are able to maintain consciousness as a continuing unit' different than developing a very powerful ego? I would imagine that a truly 'conscious' being would gracefully (and happily) accept death unless there was a significant reason not to. If so, what would that reason be?

@windwalker @SeekerOfHealing @Rickie @steve @Starjumper Thank you all for your wonderful answers! I hope this thread can be illuminating for all Bums. Considering how much time we dedicate to this stuff it's important to understand why we do it, no?

Thank you very much for this response! This is an example I have heard many times, and have used myself in the past. Upon deeper reflection however, I see difficulties with it. The main difficulty lies in the nature of wave verses ocean (water). Of course both the wave and the underlying ocean are made of the same stuff, i.e. water. The have the same essential substance. In this regard they are one and the same. However, the ocean and wave have a very different form. The wave is a motion traveling through a medium. It is an expression, and is inherently dynamic. The wave is also unique, and once its motion has run its course it 'dies' and never returns. Yes, the water through which the wave flowed returns to the ocean (in the case of a surface wave - and to be fair it never actually left the ocean), but the water is not the wave. It's not the motion. It's not dynamic movement. In this sense you (and me, and everyone else) are motion traveling through the medium of flesh. When you (and me, and everyone else - as motion) run your course and die, the flesh returns to the 'ocean' of dust from whence it came. This is fairly obvious. But the grand hypothesis (that I can neither prove nor disprove) is that we are more than our flesh. We have mind, we have soul. The notion is that mind and soul survive death and attain immortality. Assuming this is true, then the mind and soul are similarly waves upon the medium of 'Mind' or the medium of 'Soul' (other words for God, or Source, of 'The Force' or whatever term feels right with you.) But - and this is my entire point - just as the flesh is not the person, the soul is not Source. It may arise from Source and be comprised of Source but it is not Source. So, what is immortality?

Thank you! I have a couple Deng Ming-Dao books around here. This might make a good addition to the collection.

May I ask what book you found this in?

I was watching a movie about a police officer. Every day he goes out onto the streets to keep the peace. He never knows what the day might bring. Each day might be his last. Every time he captures a criminal, a new one invariably takes the old one's place. It's never ending, yet this officer is at peace. He's not trying to save the world. He's not even trying to change it. He knows that's impossible. He does his job, and will continue to do his job until he can't. I think that is a brilliant way to approach life.

That would be... odd. On a related note, I had an epiphany of sorts. Imagine that a human, his dog, and his cat all died and went to heaven. God's there and he tells them (imagine this in the voice of Ricardo Montalban from Fantasy Island) "Welcome to Heaven. You may live here for all Eternity (tm). You will never age, get sick, or injured. You will never need to work, or want for any comfort of any kind. Please, enjoy!". What would likely happen? The dog and cat would go off and do what they always do. Eat, pee, sleep, bark, climb, lick, etc. The human would be overjoyed with happiness and relief. Fast forward 10,000,000,000 years... The dog and cat would go off and do what they always do. Eat, pee, sleep, bark, climb, lick, etc. The human would be in hell. Every day he would pray to be released from this torture. That, dear friends, is why death and forgetfulness are a blessing in disguise.

To all Dao Bums, Please forgive the above post. I meant to express humor and failed. No offense was meant. My apologies. -Lost in Translation

I enjoyed that. Thank you.

Sure, wei not?

It was not aimed at anyone in particular. This thread has been off the rails a while now. I figured I would join in, but did not have anything in particular to say.

I'll never look at an egg the same way again...

< ... insert useless comment here ... >

Had a strange dream last night. Learned something new about myself. I was in an airplane while it was falling. Pilot struggling to keep control. When it became obvious we would crash, I did three things: 1) looked at my wife and thought about how much I love her. 2) thought to myself "I wonder if I'll know when it happens?" 3) began reciting the Lord's prayer. I awoke before completing it. The third item surprised me. I did not expect that. I need to dig deeper into this...

A bit of both, but mainly the choice. I've heard of soldiers crying for their mothers as they die on the battlefield. I suppose we have a hard-wired instinct for 'parental' aid in such times. As I said, I need to dig deeper.