Lost in Translation

Welcome, Jules!

I think what I am getting at is simply that Tao does not judge. Neither good nor bad come in to play. But that does not mean there are not good reasons to follow Tao. As we've already said, to follow Tao is to follow the path of least resistance, which means the path of least effort. Presumably a life of greater effort is less desirable that a life of lesser effort. Ironically, or not, leading a life of less effort begins to take on the trappings of goodness - at least in the realm of personal interactions. It is less effort to leave people alone than to meddle in their affairs, for example. Most people would agree that a good person meddles less and a bad person meddles more. Circles within circles...

But "supposed to" is, itself, a value judgement.

I don't think that's possible. Just the opposite, I think Taoism is very much not about morality, but as @Marblehead said, efficiency - specifically efficiency as it relates to one's own state of being. As one follows the efficient path - the path of least resistance in many ways - one gradually learns to live in harmony with others. This has the appearance of being good, but's it's not exactly good. Perhaps the cart is leading the horse in this regard? I'm still working this out. There are so many things to work out...

"the Way of Tao is the most efficient". Yes, very astute! But does efficiency play a role in judgement of value? Good, bad, indifferent are descriptors of value. One can be good and efficient, or bad and efficient, or indifferent and efficient. Yes? No? I think I'm missing some key element here, but I don't know what it is.

Epicurus may be bust, but the Dude abides!

These are among the wisest words I have ever read. Thank you. _/|\_

Well said. When I watch "The Lion King" with a five year old we both enjoy the movie. Yet each of us takes away a different meaning from many of the scenes. Does the movie contain secrets? Is this a conspiracy against five year olds?

My "Cliff's Notes" version of your above post. Social responsibility essentially means "the responsibility of an individual towards others". The crux of the matter. As I see it, the Taoist works on himself first, not out of selfish motive but rather because it is only through strength that one can effectively help others. Once that is achieved, the Taoist can help others as needed, as necessary, as desired - but not through a sense of obligation but rather through a sense of compassion. There is no "responsibility" at play. Instead it is "choice". And just as the Taoist acts through choice, he understands that others, too, act through choice. Thus he does not demand of others, but graciously accepts if sincerely given.

Tao Te Ching chapter 60 is probably a good place to start looking for answers.

Good question! In my own life, if I intend to do something then I will think about it, then begin. Perhaps I'll pause, think some more, then continue. It's a messy process. However, if something just happens and I am forced to respond - without the luxury of time to think - then quite often it works out. For example, while driving at highway speeds when suddenly an obstacle appears in the road. The car moves to avoid it almost before I even realize there is something there! That's instinct. If I had planned to drive like that I am sure I would crash my car.

Agreed.

Watch "The Big Lebowski" if you haven't already. It will help you understand it all.

This is a very good observation! Is a non-Taoist way of life possible? A fundamental aspect of Taoism is discernment. Once learns to see the various paths one can take. One learns to see when effort should be applied to affect change, and when effort must be conserved. Easy to say. Hard to do. A "Taoist way of life" follows this pattern. But this describes the "how", not the "what", and certainly not the "why" of life. One could just as easily apply this to waging war as to planting crops, or to chaste charity as hedonistic gluttony! So let's say a society is "going against the grain." Presumably this society is applying effort when it should be conserving energy, and failing to apply effort when it should. This society will wear itself out, stagnate, collapse, and eventually a new society will take its place. This is certainly unpleasant for those living in the society but it is perfectly in accordance with Tao. But is that what is happening? Society is changing. Perhaps it is collapsing. Perhaps it is not. I cannot tell. My position is simply that I do not know what the "direction of the grain" of society looks like. That question is too big for me. I can only answer to the grain in my own life, and to my knowledge that limitation is true for everyone.

I do. First you must establish the direction of the grain. Then you can argue society is going against it.

That is also how I see it, but still the problem remains what to do when the society you live in is itself largely going against the grain. What makes you think society is going against the grain? For that matter, what makes you think you know which direction the grain is going? Beavers build dams to block up rivers and cause flooding. Is this going against the grain? Lions slaughter the young of competing males. Is this going against the grain? Many insects eat their counterpart after mating, and many more eat their parent upon being born. Is this going against the grain? Parasites often kill the very hosts they inhabit. Is this going against the grain?

Twisted Sister

There's an "r" in this sentence! That changes everything!

Generally speaking, people need to feel they have "suffered enough" before they can move on to something good. Smith pointed this out perfectly in the first Matrix movie. How is this relevant? Many "secrets" are not secrets at all. Rather they are knowledge that people fail to see / refuse to accept until they have satisfied themselves that they are "worthy". In other words, they have sufficiently suffered. This suffering is not always acknowledged as such, and may take the form of "I need to train for X number of years", or "I need to obtain Y degree", or "I need to follow Z tradition". These criteria are great. I don't disparage them, but they do form a kind of bar that essentially says "I'm not sufficient now. I need to suffer more before I can receive". Human nature, what can you do?

Flow is the tendency of a fluid material to move from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure, ultimately to achieve homeostasis. How would you apply this definition to your spiritual experience? Did the experience "unblock" you, allowing you access to a zone of lower pressure, or did it "energize" you?

Is this another way of saying that life begins full of yang and slowly loses yang and acquires yin?

Thanks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who

Doctor Who?

That is a fantastic book!

Hmm. Hold on while I check.... No. No sheila's here. I am from LA, so I guess I'm half way there. And, hey, it is 2018 and the kids say you can be whatever you wanna be, so who knows what the future may bring?