Lost in Translation

It's not easy to differentiate between what is of oneself (thought, emotion, etc) and what is received from another. The fact that you ask the question, and thus recognize the possibility, is itself a very positive sign. Only you can determine the answer. [Edit] I would add that you trust yourself. If your first feeling (before any thoughts intrude) tells you that it is not of you then believe it. Thinking (over thinking) is the enemy in meditation.

It's an old thread, but this exact story came up recently in another thread so it deserves a bump.

Too true. But sometimes you just need to exhaust the desire to do something. Imagine a mountain lake on a windy day. The water is choppy and waves are splashing back and forth on the surface. You can't stop the waves by hitting them with a paddle. But just underneath the surface the water remains calm and cool. Tao is a lot like that, as are Taoists.

This is actually very important. Thank you. For an anarchist, you are alright! It seems there are two ways this whole 'free will' thing can go. 1) you got it, and 2) you don't. Now let's run through what that means practically. 1) You got free will. You can make choices, which means you can reap the rewards (positive and negative) of those choices. You can learn. You can grow. 2) You don't have free will. You can't make choices, which means that $#!& just happens to you, good or bad. That's just how life is. You can't actually learn. You don't really grow. You just observe life as it unfolds like a 3D movie all around you. Which option would you choose (assuming you even could choose)? I tell you I prefer option 1. So even if I don't actually have free will, I choose to live my life as if I did have free will. So I guess that means I have free will...

True. This is why "I don't know" is an acceptable, indeed a preferable, answer. Also, the point of conversation need not be to convince the other party to change their point of view. Often simply illustrating how points of view differ is enough.

Excellent point!

I read once that tests have shown that the brain "prepares" to make a decision several seconds before one is typically aware consciously that they are deciding. It was postulated that what we think of as "making" a decision is more like "being informed of" the decision we already (unconsciously) made! That's food for thought! Here's a link to a similar study. https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

I think a duck is a duck is a duck.

Let's take a few examples: - A child is born. He has his entire life ahead of him, but even then in that happy moment all in attendance know that one day he too shall die. - A fire sweeps through a forest, ravaging all the life and turning it to dust. Yet, out of that dust grows new seeds, free to create a new forest. - A bullet is fired into the air, flying miles above the ground. At its apex it turns and begins to fall back to earth. - A rock is thrown against the ground. It hits with a thud and bounces back into the air. Can you see how each event contains its opposite, how there is no separation of one from the other?

Brilliant! I am free to choose so I choose what will already happen!

TTC chapter 41. It may or may not contain the words "follow Tao", depending on translation. It often says "follow the way", which in this context is arguably the same.

Is there a way to disable images inside threads or perhaps have them automatically marked as hidden?

I respect your words, but if you live in a society with Internet access and the freedom to browse TDB then complexity is what you choose to make it. When you have decided that you have suffered enough then you can choose simplicity. It's all up to you.

The essence of Taoism. Definitely not pie in the sky. Oh, wait - what about that spiritual embryo thing...? Never mind, that's a different thread. ;-D

As long as we're talking about carving Oxen... 3.2 The tale of Cook Ding Cook Ding was carving an ox carcass for Lord Wenhui. With each touch of his hand, heave of his shoulder, step of his feet, thrust of his knee – whop! whish! – he wielded his knife with a whoosh, and every move was in rhythm. It was as though he were performing the Dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping to the beat of the Constant Source music. “Ah, marvelous!” said Lord Wenhui. “Surely this is the acme of skill!” Cook Ding laid down his knife and replied, “What your servant loves, my lord, is the Dao, and that is a step beyond skill. “At the beginning, when I first began carving up oxen, all I could see was the whole carcass. After three years I could no longer see the carcass whole, and now I meet it with my spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding cease and spirit moves as it will. I follow the natural form: slicing the major joints I guide the knife through the big hollows, and by conforming to the inherent contours, no vessels or tendons or tangles of sinews – much less the big bones – block my blade in the least. “A good cook changes his knife once a year, but this is mere slicing. An ordinary cook changes his knife once a month, because he hacks. I’ve been using this knife now for nineteen years; it has carved thousands of oxen, yet the blade is as sharp as one fresh off the grindstone. You see, there are gaps between these joints, but the blade edge has no thickness. If a knife with no thickness moves into a gap, then it’s wide as need be and the blade wanders freely with plenty of leeway. That’s why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is as sharp as one fresh off the grindstone. “But nevertheless, whenever a tangled knot lies ahead, I spot the challenge and on the alert I focus my sight and slow down my hand – then I flick the blade with the slightest of moves, and before you know it the carcass has fallen apart like earth crumbling to the ground. I stand with knife raised and face all four directions in turn, prancing in place with complete satisfaction. Then I wipe off the knife and put it away.” “How fine!” said Lord Wenhui. “Listening to the words of Cook Ding, I have learned how to nurture life!” http://www.indiana.edu/~p374/Zhuangzi.pdf

All this talk is making me want to watch Ghostbusters again...

Ugh! Khaaaaaaannnnn!

@121 My gift to you!

Thank you for explaining this. I still do not see how this proves your assertion, but I respect your words.

Oh, it's like the whole Zeus and Pluto thing! ... silly languages ...

I understand there is some word-play here. Adam (the name) has special meaning in Hebrew. The same is true for Eve, if I recall correctly. That said, how were all people who were not Adam or Eve created? Did they just spring forth from the dirt? I think not. They were children (and grandchildren, etc) of Adam and Eve. Please explain how a person (except Eve) could be from Adam and not also from Eve?

That is very true, and one tribe (the sons of Israel) became the Jewish people and the rest did not. Certainly those other tribes have blended in with all the peoples of the middle east, including Arabs. Recall that Genesis started with Adam and Eve, and God was there with them in the garden. All peoples descend from them. But that does not make all people chosen by God, or does it?

While I see the point, ( no pun intended) , that's not actually how one butchers a cow, no knife bends like that, and this butcher greatly diminishes his options by always needing to meet no resistance. It's a story about the Tao, not a manual on how to butcher animals.

Respectfully, what's the point? I am happy to converse with you (or anyone else) about a great many subjects, but even I have a limit. Would you prefer that I stop responding to your posts?

@Stosh @wandelaar As regards Chuang Tzu, I always return to the story of the ox butcher. He used the same knife for twenty years and never sharpened it, yet it cut like it was brand new. A patron noticed the knife, how it cut so well. Chuang Tzu said that an average butcher sliced the meat and tendon. His knife needed to be sharpened every few weeks. A novice butcher hacked at bone. His knife needed to be sharpened every day. The butcher in this story told how he would first feel the Ox, find the joints, and the position of the bones. Then he would slip his knife through the spaces between the bones. Because the knife never touched bone or tendon, it never met resistance, and thus it never needed to be sharpened. There is a lot of wisdom in this simple tale.