Mig

5 hours ago, dwai said:

Maybe find a way to create a barrier for ants? I usually get my home perimeter treated — supposed to be eco-friendly & non-toxic. Prevents ants from coming into the house. 
 

I had tried many things including those powered gadgets that are supposed to emanate a field that dissuades ants. 

 

 Mosquitos are interesting. I usually let them bite me when I’m outdoors, mostly I don’t feel them unless several of them come at me simultaneously. 
 

Having grown up in places where mosquitos are rather ruthless and brutally vindictive (or so it seemed then), with potential for being carriers of malaria, we either hid from them behind mosquito nets or with strong anti-mosquito incense (which was probably as toxic as malarial parasites themselves). I don’t have any doubts that mosquitos and humans don’t go together  

Ants had to make a choice, either get their food and water somewhere else, I had put all that at their disposal, but no, they prefer good food from my kitchen, so at the end I made the decision to eliminate them with a sweet poison so the colony will die. So far it is controlled and we are happy to have that piece of mind.
As for mosquitoes, no other choice but to have citronella plant near me, citronella  candles and wearing white cloths, they are less aggressive and stay away for the time being.
Now the reason of my question was because as I was reading precepts both in Daoism and Buddhism about not to kill, I wondered if they follow that precept to animals or insects that become a nuisance and invading your territory.

I was checking here and saw a quote as follows:

do not struggle go with the flow of things and you will find yourself at one with the mysterious unity of the universe

Is it really from ZZ or another made up quote. If it is real where can I find it in the original ZZ?

2 hours ago, Anzhi said:

I am saddened to hear this news, somewhat belatedly. His work on the Yi was unique , thorough and very furthering. A central reference for me. Sorry, I have been away from the Forum. I recommend his free offerings on his site. I purchased his second volume, with full details on every gua on Chinese characters. Use it often. Grateful for his life and work.

"Please forgive the lack of updates and any dead links
on account of my having proved mortal."

from his site https://hermetica.info/

I didn't know much about him until I found him on the web. What do you like about his works and how fluent was he in classical Chinese or the spoken Chinese language? Thanks

I was wondering how inequality is viewed by Daoists practitioners or Masters or those who have a good knowledge of Daoists scriptures and classics.  It seems that in later years inequality has been disproportionately bigger in the past years but nothing new in humankind history. How can you observe inequality and just let the nature takes its ways and then continue in life as nothing has happened or just accept it while you are living the good life both spiritual and economical. It makes me wonder about Daoists who are secluded or hermits not having responsibilities as every human living in society. Any ideas?

I found this that may help understand a little better:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/opinion/religion-taoism-death.html

Yancy: How does Taoism conceive of the soul?

Ziporyn: Taoism has no concept of “the” soul per se; the person has many souls, or many centers of energy, which must be integrated. All are concretizations of a more primal formless continuum of energy of which they are a part, like lumps in pancake batter. These are neither perfectly discontinuous nor perfectly dissolved into oneness.

Ancient Chinese belief regarded the living person as having two souls, the “hun” and the “po,” which parted ways at death. Later religious Taoists conceived of multitudes of gods, many of whom inhabit our own bodies — multiple mini-souls within us and without us, which the practitioner endeavored to connect with and harmonize into an integral whole.

Yancy: The concept of a soul is typically integral to a conceptualization of death. How does Taoism conceive of death?
ImageProfessor Ziporyn is a scholar and translator of some of the most complex philosophical texts and concepts of the Chinese religious traditions.
Professor Ziporyn is a scholar and translator of some of the most complex philosophical texts and concepts of the Chinese religious traditions.Credit...Devin Oktar Yalkin for The New York Times

Ziporyn: In the “Zhuangzi,” there is a story about death, and a special friendship formed by humans in the face of it. Four fellows declare to each other, “Who can see nothingness as his own head, life as his own spine, and death as his own backside? Who knows the single body formed by life and death, existence and nonexistence? I will be his friend!” We go from formlessness to form — this living human body — then again to formlessness. But all three phases constitute a single entity, ever transforming from one part to another, death to life to death. Our existence when alive is only one part of it, the middle bit; the nothingness or formlessness before and after our lives are part of the same indivisible whole. Attunement to this becomes here a basis for a peculiar intimacy and fellowship among humans while they are alive, since their seemingly definite forms are joined in this continuum of formlessness.

The next story in the “Zhuangzi” gives an even deeper description of this oneness and this intimacy. Three friends declare, “‘Who can be together in their very not being together, doing some­thing for one another by doing nothing for one another? Who can climb up upon the heavens, roaming on the mists, twisting and turning round and round without limit, living their lives in mutual forgetfulness, never coming to an end?’ The three of them looked at each other and burst out laughing, feeling complete concord, and thus did they become friends.”

Here there is no more mention of the “one body” shared by all — even the idea of a fixed oneness is gone. We have only limitless transformation. And the intimacy is now an wu-wei kind of intimacy, with no conscious awareness of a goal or object: They commune with each other by forgetting each other, just as they commune with the one indivisible body of transformation by forgetting all about it, and just transforming onward endlessly. Death itself is transformation, but life is also transformation, and the change from life to death and death to life is transformation too.

I wonder where that image come from? Does it have a particular meaning?

On 8/13/2020 at 1:31 PM, RobB said:

 

Interesting - where are those from? I'll freely admit I know next to nothing about these things but they look more Confucian than Daoist to me. No 10 look more like a Bodhisattva-vow arrangement but then I dont know anything about Buddhism either :-)

The Ten Precepts of Initial Perfection (chuzhen shijie 初真十戒) parallel those found in the early eighth century Chuzhen shijie wen 初真十戒文 (Ten Precepts of Initial Perfection; DZ 180). The text is transmitted to ordinands of the first level of Quanzhen 全真 (Complete Perfection) and represents the school’s most fundamental guidelines and practical precepts. It also includes conduct guidelines for women entitled the Nüzhen jiujie 女真九戒 (Nine Precepts for FemalePerfected).

Desmonddf, thank you for your kind response. It makes sense and wonder where those concepts come from? It seems those concepts have been used by Daoists, Confucianists and others

thelerner, recently I saw a doc regarding mushrooms and trees. Based on their study they claim they have a very sophisticated way of communication to live together and mushrooms to develop and live in their environment. There is some kind of processing information like we humans do, so shall we say they don't have brains. I have met humans they have brains but for whatever reason they cannot use it for basic purposes, i am not talking about handicapped or mental ill individuals, just normal dudes. The reason of my question is because you see in some monasteries many vegetarian followers and in their religion one of the precepts is not to kill so it made me think, don't we kill plants before we eat them?

Thelerner, you are very right, none of them but interested reading old scripts and trying to understand how people paraphrase or understand the commentaries of those old texts. The ants, I tried many options and none of the natural wonders didn't work until I found a natural poison where ants will bring to their colony and will die or will move to a different location. In the environment where I live there are plenty areas where they can eat what they need but for whatever reason this year they chose to invade the kitchen and even the house. Fortunately, the solution worked but they still persistent outside damaging some trees. The solution of offering different locations seems a short term solution, still I know they will come back and I can hear them saying: we shall return.

I was wondering if someone can help me to understand where the idea of vegan or vegetarian started in Daoism. It seems the same idea is in Buddhism. If it is about compassion and feelings, don't plants have also compassion and feelings?

The Philosophy of the I Ching 2nd Revised Edition

by Carol K. Anthony

I am wondering if someone has read this book and if it is an useful reading??

Does someone knows or can explain about the difference between spirit and soul in Daoism? Maybe there is a distinction between the religious or philosophical point of view. Your input shall be appreciated. Thanks

Just found this, it may interest you:

I have noticed reading stories about the Master Lao (laozi) riding an ox or a water buffalo when he left to the Hangu pass. Some images he's riding the water buffalo facing backwards and others facing forward. I wonder why a water buffalo? Is there the position important or does it have a specific hidden meaning?

On 3/26/2019 at 11:16 AM, Lost in Translation said:

 

Huang and Wilhelm are my go-to translations. 

Why both? I thought Wilhelm translation was originally written in German?

On 8/5/2020 at 1:30 PM, silent thunder said:

Hey Mig.

 

Yea, I have no idea what the Chinese mind, or any other mind understands, I'm just sharing my own.

 

I understand only a few words of Chinese and no Classical Chinese at all, so every word I've ever read about Daoism has been in english, or spanish, the two languages I know a bit, so all daoist ideas have been translated.  So too, interestingly have all the thoughts in my own mind...

 

I find my own cognitive process, when shifting experiences to conceptual notions in the realm of words, is a translation itself, even within my own awareness.  My life as thought about, is interpreted and translated from the subtle into the conceptual, every time I try to formulate words for experiences, or have thoughts arise about them. 

 

C'est la vie. 

 

My process has, interestingly to me, without seeking, naturally unfolded away from literality and certainty and occupies a more poetic sensing...

 

Every experience and perception of life I've ever had, or am having now, when trying to convey them in words seem to equally have been interpreted by my own perceptual translations.  All of spoken life, is a translation to me these daze... and these daze, I allow space for the chinese mind and all others to have their own full take on life, that may or may not be what mine is... but I find I abide in deep comfort with the one seeming certainty that even though we may not be experiencing these concepts the same... we are each of us, having a complete experience in and of it, our self. 

 

Tzujan... of itself. 

 

We all experience life from the center of our own awareness.  ZZ resonates humor and play for me with unparalleled high skill.

 

His words, undoubtedly translated many times (even among the chinese... how many read the classical?), reflected in many mirrors, are at their core, reflective of human experience and in this, there will be resonant harmonies and similarities that instinctively resonate with all humans, each in their own subjective manner.

 

It's interesting to see how my interpretations adjust as i move through life. 

Particularly in revisiting old texts after years away, how differently the same words may be encountered after years of experience.  I wonder how I'll be experiencing the interpreted words of ZZ in another decade?  I know it's remarkable to even reread my own old journal musings. 

 

I see why my masters have prodded keeping journals of thoughts.  It's remarkable to re-encounter my own thoughts and see how they are translated after some time engaged in the shift of life.

I think it is an interesting observation as I can see we can fall short if we talk about translation.  There are several stories in Daoism that come from common sayings and then it is understood the way it was expressed in ZZ. It is not a translation but an interpretation then it becomes a translation in the target language, here English language. So it seems to me about the interpretation of those short stories in ZZ that makes more sense, not just how well the story was translated into English. So it is the same for many other Daoists writings where the cultural context is much important than knowing the meaning of each character. The question remains how can you understand ZZ without the cultural and linguistic context other than the English translation?

26 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Oddly similar to this one 

Health is the greatest gift,
contentment is the greatest wealth,
a trusted friend is the best relative,
Nibbana is the greatest bliss.

Verse 204 of the Dhammapada, in a translation by Daw Mya Tin. 

Thank you and most likely the quote is a misquote, not even Daoist nor from Laozi. It is amazing how much is out there that is always difficult to trust even in respectable forums. Thanks for sharing

Does someone knows where this quote come from?:

“Health is the greatest possession. Contentment is the greatest treasure. Confidence is the greatest friend. Non-being is the greatest joy.”  Laozi

I couldn't find the original in Chinese and don't even know if it is another made up quote??

On 8/15/2020 at 8:33 AM, ilumairen said:

So, it will seasonally rectify itself? Without the need for angsty deliberations on your part? And the actions you have taken have already lessened the “invasion”?
 

I recall seeing a video of a question/answer session with TWR regarding the idea of generating compassion for all living beings, and swatting flies. (If I could recall where to find it for you I would, but it was only of passing interest to me, and my mind didn’t create a further pathway for recovery, apologies.) What he was asked was very similar to what you are asking, and his reply encompassed two points. The first was regarding the generation of karmic traces and creation of pain identities. It seems the more narrative we weave around something like swatting a fly, the more difficulty we may create for ourselves. The second was to humorously suggest that, of course, we don’t swat a fly landing on our arm while we are sitting on our cushions generating compassion for all living things - for rather obvious reasons.

 

They’re just hungry, and doing what ants do - completely indifferent to the suffering you are creating for yourself on their behalf.

Indeed, when the season is over, they don't invade inside of the house even though they are busy in the garden doing their thing, the slave workers while the queen is having a good time, who knows. The reason of my question is because I don't understand the logic of no killing either in Daoism or Buddhism, when sometimes is inevitable if you don't want to be invaded and become a prisoner of your beliefs. So far, I put some left overs in the trash can and immediately they are there so I was able to track their platoons and see where they are coming from. It seems they are well hidden under the basement.

1 hour ago, Bhathen said:

How does it feel when chopping veggies, mowing a lawn ...

 

 After a retreat once, the concept of no-killing weighed heavily on the mind. The more I thought about it, the more ants I could notice in the house. Tried to use baking soda, essential oils, fragrant powders, mothballs, tracking back with sugar... anything to get them off-trail. Frustration followed and I felt my actions were doing them more harm. They also have a mind and feelings, isn't it?

Stopped doing anything at all.

 

Finally, the ants stopped, and my thoughts too. Never figured which happened first. 

Maybe the emotional mind had taken over too much.

Veggies aren't part of our cycle of transformation. I wouldn't call that killing. The lawn is like the hair, if I don't trim it, it will go crazy. I tried everything possible for the ants, and nothing worked because I haven't found the colony. It is during summer when they invade wherever possible to find food. We keep the kitchen clean and most of everything now is in the fridge and freezer. Still they send scouts from places I would have never imagined. Now, the invasion is less but one little thing left of food they are there immediately. Still holding for pest control and hopefully when the summer season is over back to normality. If I stop doing anything, they will invade every space. It is a guerrilla war. It seems killing is inevitable.

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I'm a proponent of Entheogens and their benefits and usefulness in exploring one's awareness and the underpinnings that lay often beneath/beyond the ken of our usual consciousness to access.

 

I've experienced two breakthroughs and the catalyzation of realizations of life changing proportions and magnitude through the influence of the spirit of psilocybin mushrooms.  Two trips in particular were paramount in releasing the inertia of trauma and coming to understand the destructive underpinnings of behaviors and methods I'd been utilizing to manage trauma energies for decades prior to the wakening experiences. 

 

Those two experiences catalyzed insights that were invaluably beneficial and whose influential shifts still abide to this day.

 

The Entheogen classes of hallucinogenic plant spirits are potent non-habit forming aids in my experience and can have lasting sustainable insights brought to the fore.  I'm deeply grateful for their lessons.

 

 

The problem I have now is that there are several terms for return fan, gui or fu. Fu as returning to the roots and found in the Yijing:

Hexagram Fu.
The light, symbolized by the first yang line on bottom of the hexagram is returning and begins its ascension up to the top of the hexagram, removing the yin, dark, lines

2 hours ago, RobB said:

I'm not aware of any Daoists precept against killing. I'm not sure I'm aware of any Daoist precepts now i think about it. 

Quick search one can find the following:

十戒是：不杀生、不偷盗、不邪淫、不妄语、不饮酒、不涂饰、不歌舞及旁听、不坐高广大床、不非时食、不蓄金银财宝。

ten precepts:

1. Do not kill but always be mindful of the host of living beings.
2. Do not be lascivious or think depraved thoughts.
3. Do not steal or receive unrighteous wealth.
4. Do not cheat or misrepresent good and evil.
5. Do not get intoxicated but always think of pure conduct.
6. I will maintain harmony with my ancestors and family and never disregard my kin.
7. When I see someone do a good deed, I will support him with joy and delight.
8. When I see someone unfortunate, I will support him with dignity to recover good fortune.
9. When someone comes to do me harm, I will not harbor thoughts of revenge.
10. As long as all beings have not attained the Dao, I will not expect to do so myself.

2 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Sorry this may help, it may not, it might be completely off topic, however to me, a return to yourself is to come in intimate contact with your being. In other words you become aware that you are aware, or you become conscious that you are conscious.

I understand, although it seems that getting back to return is not an easy task unless you are under the effects of some kind of drug, as far as I understand. It seems also we are conditioned since early childhood or by the system where you live in. This is where I wonder if this is the same return Daoists talk about.

16 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Are they the little sugar ants?
 

We get those on occasion. But they aren’t an issue for me, and find other food sources when whatever got shmutzed is cleaned up.

 

 

small and big ones all in between, it seems that wherever they go, they plant their eggs and more are coming to my end. I spend more than one hour patrolling all around the house especially the kitchen and keep it as clean as possible. So to kill or not to kill, that is the question?