Has anybody read this book and if you do, would you recommend it?

Also 

On 9/14/2024 at 10:22 AM, snowymountains said:

 

I believe a commentary can only detract.

 

The language of DDJ is written in a way to resonate within in a profound way and unless the commentator is equally skilled, any additional text will miss the most important part, the part where the text resonates within us and instead the commentary will replace this resonation with a cognitive process.

 

Personally I won't read a commentary as I don't want the commentator's cognitive processes to be activated next time I read the DDJ.

Which language do you think the DDJ was written? Considering it was a poetic language easy to misinterpret it into another language. How would I understand each line if I don't have a structural understanding of each chapter as it seems it was intended and those chapters have been understood by generations of teachings in the same culture. If you read the translation you are reading words and understanding what you've been taught in your own culture. Talking about benevolence is purely a Christian understanding but not necessarily how the similar concept has been understood by the Chinese culture. 

On 2/17/2020 at 12:58 PM, ReturnDragon said:

Yes, Chuang Tzu was right.
He says: "I rather use some other's words. It is because no one believes what I say."

Where did  莊子 Zhuāng zǐ said that? And what was the context in the section where he mentioned that sentence?

 I think you meant ZZ Ch 27.1
故曰無言。言無言，終身言，未嘗言；終身不言，未嘗不言

Therefore I say, we must have no-words! With words that are no-words, you may speak all your life long, and you
will never have said anything. Burton Watson translation

6 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

You have to find some books on your own. I don't have any in particular.

A few books about what? Which books are you referring to?

On 1/4/2024 at 1:36 PM, Cobie said:

 

Interesting. Fits with what I was told, that modern Chinese is slowly developing to losing the tones and becoming an agglutinative language.

 

 

Not sure what you mean about agglunative language? Any examples to share? What I have noticed recently is the use of single syllables like instead of using two syllables words like kuaile: happy and say le only.

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't think that there is one translation or interpretation is better than the other. It is best to read a few books to get the general theme of the philosopher to form your own conclusion. It is not wise to have someone tell you which is good or not.

Thanks and understood. What books would you recommend to get the general theme?

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

There's not much to choose from in case of the Lieh tzu. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liezi#Translations

 

I have the the ones by Graham and Wong. Graham is scholarly, Wong is practical. So both are interesting, but for different reasons. I don't know the one by Liang Xiaopeng.

What was good about Graham translation? What did you learn from Graham that other translations didn't cover? Was that helpful to understand what Daoists preach or talk about Daoism?

Which English translation will you recommend to read Lièzǐ 列子? And what did you learn about his writing and why one translation and not another one.  Thanks 

After reading many postings about Daoism, the DDJ, ZZ, LZ etc. I was wondering for all the scholars in this forum,

is it necessary to know modern Chinese and classical Chinese to read those classics? or it is no necessary to learn

none but rely entirely on every English translation since the concepts or messages in those books are just normal

concepts or advises that are natural in humans all over the world. If I read  the DDJ or ZZ, I can understand the sentences

in a translation but I don't have a clue of the meaning, structure or hidden message in each chapter. If I find an explanation

or commentary of each chapter and the point of view of a scholar well versed in Daoism then I understand the reason why.

The problem becomes tricky when everyone has one opinion and their opinion is based on religious or an academic point of

view. The famous dichotomy of religious and philosophical Daoism is seen from differently from the point of a native scholar.

And reading those Daoists books, I realize that is important to learn about Confucianism and then bingo! I can see how terms,

concepts or ideas had evolved after their time until the Tang and Song dynasty and how those texts were interpreted later by

Buddhists, Confucians and Daoists.

So is it necessary to learn Chinese or not to read or understand (to practice in life) the old classics?

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

Middle and Modern Chinese are tonal. They won't come from nowhere. It was not out of a imposed design.  The logical reasoning is that the tonality must have evolved from earlier not barely tonal or not so tonal versions to a fully tonal language. 

What is your criteria to assert that it was not out of an imposed design? Wasn't the written script arbitrary imposed to pronounce words?

Interesting posting and the Quora answers are so diverse and I can smell the academic flavor of their lingo. It is true the importance of tones but common people don't talk like that, in conversation their sentences are fluid and when they speak very fast, it is only the context that helps in the conversation, an example is the crosstalk stand up comedy type where they speak fast, or even when they sing songs where tones are not necessarily used formally . As for tones in ancient Chinese, who knows what happened BC. And this made me wonder, were the DDJ or lún yǔ written using tones or was it a tendency for the language to become monosyllabic then tones evolved? Again, as for tones, it seems to me that there is this academic explanation, which I understand why, but tones as Kaiser Kuo mentioned in the Quora intervention, "dude" can use tones for the 4 tones in modern Chinese. Now, I have never understood when I hear native Chinese speak the standard language, I can hear stress or intonation in a sentence and tones are not necessarily used unless disambiguation to clarify the meaning of a word whether is one syllable or two syllables words.

On 12/12/2023 at 12:06 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 

lets say a reader does not know anything about china or any kind of breath exercise. the sentence will inform him: 'real men always breath deep as if their breath comes from their heels up'. a reasonable reader will understand this sentence to a t. he will need no evidence nor experience nor explanation.  he will surmise: 'deep calm breath=good'. thats what ZZ says and there is nothing more to it.

 

now if you personally want to imitate the real men or to learn about ancient chinese culture and so on, you may do more research. but no research is necessary to understand ZZ for a reasonable average reader.

I guess I understand better the sentence as the real person's breathing reaches down to their heels which makes sense if I breath using the dantian. It seems that is the practice developed from Daoists and Yogis traditions. More common in Taijiquan in their early writings.

28 minutes ago, MBZ said:

 “The Dao of Pooh” 

How good is that book as an introduction to Daoism or Eastern philosophy ? From the vinegar tasters to the old master and the master Zhuang, what's that all about?

41 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure. as usual with the chinese, it is convoluted

the initial idea of 4 virtues different from the later 四字 is

some 1500 years later those morphed into current 四字 in a Song dynasty book 

then it was codified again in an immensely popular fantasy book of Ming dynasty

 

 

 

Great and thanks. Any reason of why 節; jié was included?

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

I don't know much about this, but I think it's interesting. 

Since you mentioned Jujitsu (I avoid the Brazilian tag name because of the trend) and I had practiced southern Chinese boxing, I found those strengths that are popular in many martial arts circles which have been influenced by the rújiào 儒教 the scholars (Confucianism) and the folk religion which includes Daoism and Chán Buddhism. Thus, I try to understand where those ideas came from and why people use them in their practice or teachings.
 

On 12/13/2023 at 7:58 PM, Taoist Texts said:

yes 4 keywords

I couldn't find where the 四字 came from in the traditional Confucianism. Any sources you can share to explain the reason of those four which includes  節; jié ?

9 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

人法地: human follows earth

地法天: earth follows sky

天法道: sky follows Tao

道法自然: Tao follows its own nature(own-self).

I didn't see anything in the TTC says to follow nature but not to interfere with nature. Let nature take its course(無為). To obtain Tao is simply means to observe the principles of Tao. Tao is not related to nature. Tao overlooks nature to assure things are run properly on their course. Good or bad, nature has no mercy.

 

I think the problem is about the translation and the use or misuse of the word "nature". And most likely it comes from a sentence from the  淮南子 原道訓:

...修道理之數，因天地之自然，則六合不足均也。 the man who conforms to the art of the Tao, in accordance with the natural way of Heaven and Earth, would find it easy to manage the whole world.

I am pretty sure that my inquiry has been made in the past or for thousand years and my observation is that it gives me the impression is that if Daoist say follow nature is idealistic and chose arbitrarily images or concepts to make sense of their message. Unfortunately hippies, post hippies and then new age people have used it as a porte manteau word to sell whatever idea that sounds cool

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

IMO Follow nature doesn't mean to do exactly what nature does. It simply means to cope with nature. For example, flood is a natural cause of nature. The following action was dictated by nature is to avoid the flood by going to higher places. Indeed, it is not possible for human to create flood by following nature.

What is the closest sentence, explanation in Chinese? I see your example of flood, what about earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis. Is there any mention of how follow nature in Chinese?

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Following nature simply means working with natural tendencies to achieve your goals in stead of stubbornly trying to force the world to act according to your own preferences. In some cases animals and plants can be taken as an example, but not always. Following nature acknowledges our own relative insignificance by giving up futile attempts at heroism. Simple somewhat silly example: walking around a wall instead of stubbornly trying to knock it down or trying to climb over it. In the hassle of daily life this easy-does-it attitude is easily forgotten because we tend to get obstinate and irate at apparent injustices in the way the world works. So following nature has nothing to do with morality, and everything with surviving in an occasionally unjust world. Remember that the TTC was written in the Warring States period.

Okay, I guess my problem is trying to understand "following nature". Did you understand it because it was common sense when you read it or is it because you found one sentence, one commentary or one explanation in one of the classics and that is how you understood it? And more problematic is when I hear people say the Dào is nature or the Dào follows nature, thus nature is 自 zì 然 rán

Now human nature is or should be a replica of nature and I can observe that some individuals grow nice and some grow mean or psychopaths as now we can watch videos as how some pack animals can be cruel within their own territory. As for injustice, I think that is for another discussion later.

On 12/10/2023 at 12:52 PM, wandelaar said:

 

I don't have Lynn's translation yet, but I may well buy it. As you can see on Google Books the translation is preceded by an extended introduction. I think knowing the cultural background of a text (particularly when it's a very old text) is essential for understanding, so the introduction might well be worth reading. But at the moment I just don't know if reading the book as a whole is worth the effort. Maybe later.

I've just got mine and already I am very satisfied with the few pages I have read and compared with other notes. I highly recommend it and I am not sure why is not as popular as others as Watson. Thanks for sharing

52 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

no. What you listed are strengths not virtues . Strengths have nothing to do with ethics or morals. An unethical or an immoral man can have them. Virtues are:

The Five Constants are:^[58]

• Ren (benevolence, humaneness)
• Yi (righteousness, justice)
• Li (propriety, rites)
• Zhi (智; zhì: wisdom, knowledge)
• Xin (sincerity, faithfulness)

These are accompanied by the classical four virtues (四字; sìzì), one of which (Yi) is also included among the Five Constants:

• Yi (see above)
• Loyalty (忠; zhōng)
• Filial piety (孝; xiào)
• Continence (节; 節; jié)

Got it. But what's four virtues (四字; sìzì)? Four characters?

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Mig as you say, nature is brutal. Imo Laozi did not recommend following it.

 https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54593-zi4-ran2-自然/?do=findComment&comment=1003399 

 

So why people keep saying follow nature, emulate nature? Is that what all the Dào is all about?

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Look into the 'nature of things'   and how they  'work' . Then try to emulate that in other fields . Consider 'harmony' , or beneficial symbiosis , or water finding the level ...

 

Dont go around being a tiger and pouncing on people and eating them .

 

I hope this helps .

 

.

Like what kind of nature of things? Any examples to share and how to emulate them as following the Dào?

Beneficial? I thought we were here because sharing is caring. Back in the days people used to say tigers were lonely animals but now apparently is not the case. 

The reason of my ignorant questioning is because the ideas I found when people say follow nature or the Dào, it seems to me very simplistic and idealistic because the nature I see out there is far from being harmonious and when nature catastrophe hits your backyard then is no longer that nice and nothing is left undone. 

As I started learning about morality, I still don't understand as I found these are part of character ethics:

1. Determination 意志yì zhì

2. Endurance 忍耐rěn nài

3. Perseverance 毅力yì lì

4. Patience 耐心nài xīn

5. Courage 勇敢yǒng gǎn

Are all those related to Confucianism ethics or morals?

On 11/3/2023 at 6:02 PM, Marcus said:

Nature doesnt make those distinctions. Humans do.

'There is no good nor bad. Only thinking makes it so'.

 When a river meets a mountain it doesnt hate or love the mountain. It either flows around it or slowly melts it away.

It follows the easiest path, which is wu wei. The natural flow with least resistance.

A lion doesnt hate the animal it has for breakfast.

Spend some time away in nature and if you need a good teacher get yourself a cat.

You wont find Taoism on the internet. Just people hawking their wares.

You wont find Spirit in a temple. Just people in silly hats selling someone elses opinions.

Go natural and be your own master.

Peace.

 

Let me understand your notes. I understand we humanize what we see in nature. Not long ago, we thought we had control of nature but the more we see, the more we realize that is not the case. We try to dominate nature because the way we were taught. Now, how do you know there is no good nor bad. If I go camping and stay in one place, chances are that bugs are going to visit and most likely they will make my life impossible so I have to find a better way to be in a comfortable place. Is it good or is it bad? Is that about my thinking or just the way it is in nature? Now the natural flow with least resistance? Is that how lava works when the volcano has eruptions causing disaster for all the living creatures that were nearby. As for the lion, aren't lions territorial and will kill out anger or get killed because for some reason a pack of hyenas picked the right victim. How do you explain that? Each time I spend in nature, each time makes me wonder, where in the Dàoism or in the DDJ or ZZ talks about how nature is not all rosy but also cruel. Thus, I can see now why some humans are also cruel committing atrocities to their fellow human. If I read history and even today, I noticed how much conflict and wars still common in this world. Is that to follow the Dào? Is that to emulate the Dào? How can I go natural if natural is constant fight between those who can survive and those who take advantage of each situation to live comfortably?  And be my own Master? Really, are you implying having control of myself and my surroundings? We have control of anything, plain and simple.