Mig

On 12/24/2020 at 7:22 AM, dmattwads said:

When I find interesting about the heart and diamond citrus usage in Asia is the way their chanted for magical and spiritual efficacy simply by virtue of the power of the scripture itself. I don't really understand this but at the same time I find the concept fascinating.

I keep reading people recite both sutras without knowing the meaning and most of the translations are good and very good explanations. Truly, a good reading with explanations is necessary.

5 hours ago, Mig said:

I am not sure Yin Yang is a Daoist concept, the idea comes from the Yijing. The constant Dao as in the first line of the DDJ  seems to be close to the idea of permanent. Thanks again, reading what is out there published and reading from someone who had read it and experienced is different and helpful.

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

Another fun little tid-bit is its common in Asia to recite the Heart Sutra to clear and area of ghosts, and to improve one's karma.

As I am reading the Diamond Sutra, just found the heart attack Sutra which says:
we can safely say about the Heart Sutra is that it is completely crazy. If we read it, it does not make any sense. Well, maybe the beginning and end make sense, but everything in the middle sounds like a sophisticated form of nonsense, which can be said to be the basic feature of the prajfiapilramita siitras in general. I guess I am not the only one.

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I can't say as much about the Taoist concepts as I am less familiar with them, but in regards to impermanence from the Taoist point of view if one looks at the model of yin/yang it can be seen that yin and yang are always in flux each becoming the other and always in motions which to me seems to illustrate well impermanence.

I am not sure Yin Yang is a Daoist concept, the idea comes from the Yijing. The constant Dao as in the first line of the DDJ  seems to be close to the idea of permanent. Thanks again, reading what is out there published and reading from someone who had read it and experienced is different and helpful.

11 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

The Diamond sutra is about emptiness.

Nothing is substantial.

Nothing is permanent.

Nothing is ultimately satisfying.

Thanks. If I hadn't read it without explanation both books, I wouldn't have understood the meaning or the message. Now, I am reading Master Nan Huai-jin, Diamond sutra explained and I am finding clear explanation as I should have expected from other books. Now regarding those concepts as permanent, nothing or emptiness, I wonder how different they are from the same concepts in Daoism.

7 hours ago, C T said:

One could always ask Google how to understand the various meanings of the different sutras. Or listen to the many teachings and/or commentaries from numerous online Buddhist resources, for example, Lotsawa House, Buddhistdoor, Lion's Roar, Shambala, FPMT, and so on. 

I did ask and one of the many reasons why I asked about the heart sutra is because I started reading the Qingjing jing the book of clarity and stillness and found that many lines come from the heart sutra. At the same time, I found the Diamond sutra and started reading to understand the underlying meanings that is not understood if there is no explanation.

On 12/22/2020 at 7:04 AM, dmattwads said:

 

Well being pragmatic about these issues I would say start with the heart sutra simply because it's shorter and therefore it would be easier to memorize.

And why is it important to read the heart sutra to understand the diamond sutra? I am reading the heart sutra, Red Pine translation and still don't understand much.

How important is to study the Diamond Sutra both in the original version or in the Chinese version and why is important? Should one read first the heart sutra or the Diamond sutra? How does that help in reading or learning it by heart?

18 hours ago, XianGong said:

 

Talking is work.

Hosting information on internet costs money.

Recording information costs money and time.

Hosting a website on the internet with domain costs money.

Developing a website for you to see on the internet - costs money.

 

Why don't you just go and work for free, if you are so smart and dedicated?

And there's cheap talk and good talks in the internet for free and many that don't push the sale. They know how to make money instead pushing for you to buy. Look at podcasts how they work and their business model. I don't work for free and if I can share something for free I will do it, just like many scholars offer free content or publishing companies. 

On 11/30/2020 at 12:25 PM, Nungali said:

I have noticed a trend here lately , in the middle of the news on tv, on some stations, NOT during an 'ad break' but presented along with the other news stories  things like ;

 

'Coles have announced that due to unseasonal rain and warm temperatures ( footage of farmland , smiling farmers etc ) they have managed to secure  large amounts of cheap good quality vegetables  enabling them to pass on savings to customers .  (Then back to the 'news' reader, who sits there with a dead straight serious face) ;   " For example,   mangoes  $1.20 ,   Broccoli $4.99 a kilo ,   etc    "

 

REALLY   ? 

In the beginning of Internet, everybody tought we could get things for free, now news they push you to subscribe and see how they can check how you watch news and what you can buy from them or affiliated programs they work together.

9 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I find this sort of thing incredibly arrogant.

 

 

I could find arrogant to ask for money whereas most of the places on the web one can get e-books, online publications, interviews, videos for free. What I am noticing is that for sometime the internet has become a money making machine, not only enticing you to buy, call for action and lately pushing you to buy or get your cookies to distribute your information and how you are browsing. Most of the people don't care and consumerism is rampant today even online. This is the reason why I reacted. I understand if there is a specific method of work or guidance to learn with a serious curriculum then I understand the reason for charging money.

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

One could also ask, why should he not get paid?

Why not, many who have been affected by the pandemic and we found ways. If you're running a business you should have had a back up plan. Big corporation have the luxury to charge because they can if you try to charge to unveil secrets I doubt they're going to make it. Good for those who can afford and good luck 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

 

If you don't want to pay, sign up for his free Sunday lessons here -- https://mailchi.mp/d6094bf1f7b0/taichitao

 

These are usually free live sessions which they sell later for $5 USD. They have to run their operations during the pandemic too. 

If this is his income generator then that's fine. It seems odd that all is about money. I was affected by the pandemic and found a way to bring income and still can help others if it's intellectual knowledge 

17 hours ago, dwai said:

What I’ve been taught is that daoist goal is to reconnect with the Dao. We have within us a complete copy of the Dao. It is called our De. Daoists work on their body-mind, clearing layers of junk until they can access the de (which is buried under layers of acquired habits and mind).
 

Once we reconnect with our De, it will let us “return to Dao”. 
 

Wrt the daoist treatment of desire — desire rises from the acquired mind, so is artificial. Real is Dao. So desire is released as part of the cleansing of the mind. 

I would recommend checking out these videos by Master Liao — https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/interview-tao-and-the-struggle-of-life?categoryId=44275

 

He will tell you like it is, without flowery words and elaborate jargon

Why should I pay for an interview? Is this master more interested in getting paid to talk? Maybe he can get a job and answer for free???

14 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

For Taoist, most temples start from little.  They could be everywhere and anywhere.  Some of them grow and most perished.  It is different from other religions as there is no Taoist Church, which undertakes where and when to build a temple and to coordinate the locations.  Most temples are independent from one another.  Impoverished areas do get temples, a lot of them too.  Temples could be small or even sometimes unmanned and close to each other.

 

The reason for the proliferation of temples/shrines is that Taoist religion is primarily about interacting with divinity.  It may have be lost for other religions, but not Taoism.  Then how to know if a particular temple has the patron of divinity?  Whatever you asked for is granted, then it is considered a efficacious temple.  People will flock there.    A rich person might want to build a temple somewhere, but if this temple cannot provide this "service", it would be an empty one. 

 

Taoism is polytheism, which explains the proliferation and competition between temples. 

 

If you want to know if Taoist leans on money, they do, a lot.  But location of temple has nothing to do with it.  In most cases, it is the good temples that attracts the money and people.

Just found this prior 1949

The organisation of urban temples was profoundly shaken by the extremely aggressive religious policies carried out by the
succession of regimes following the end of the empire. (5) And yet, the essential elements of this organisation were still
to be seen in 1949. In every major city there were one or two big Daoist temples, which we call “central temples,”
managed by the local Daoist elites who maintained close links with local government officials and the economic and
cultural elites. The temples of the City God (Chenghuang miao) or of the Eastern Peak (Dongyue miao) often played
the role of central temple. (6) The Daoist elites who controlled these temples belonged to one of the two major clerical
orders, the Quanzhen and the Zhengyi. Although these two orders are organised in different ways, their liturgy is to
a large extent similar. Moreover, a very large number of smaller temples, generally belonging to neighbourhood associations, guilds, or other institutions of the kind, employed Daoists, either permanently or to come and officiate during festivals. (7) While the temples were all autonomous, hierarchical systems linked them together. The organisation of major festivals at city level (such
as the major processions of the City God, which took place three times a year) were most often in the hands of the
Daoists of the central temples, who brought together all the small temples; representatives of the latter regularly visited the
central temple and took part in its processions. The reorganisation of the temples and of Daoism after 1949 put an end to
this organisation, replacing it with a bureaucratic management that functioned according to a completely logic.

RE: Temples and Daoists inUrban China Since 1980
Goossaert Vincent and Ling Fang

that functioned according to a completely different logic.

I have observed for the past years how much information is out there and how people are addicted to read, listen and watch the news. Not only that but now you watch fake news or purely sensationalism news. Meanwhile the ratings are higher and higher, they are making more money and people are becoming conditioned to believe or make an educated decision based on news. What's going on folks?

On 11/20/2020 at 4:48 AM, silent thunder said:

Money has no intrinsic value.

Money equals options in society.

Very true it doesn't have value though everything in society needs value to sell it and to buy it you need money, whatever you need even if you make it your own. So at the end it does have a value.

On 11/20/2020 at 4:48 AM, silent thunder said:

 

In nature, it's useless, other than as the paper or metal coins it is.

Can't eat or drink money, can't live in money.

 

But in society... it's the option to move within society in myriad ways.

Have a shit roommate?  Have a savings account and a job?  You have the option to move.

There are always secondary effects for each of your options so in order to drink you need money and to live in society you need money, so what are you going to do?

On 11/20/2020 at 4:48 AM, silent thunder said:

 

Car took a shit?  Have a job?  You have the option to repair/replace your car, buy a bike, rent an uber...

 

Money is the idea of value in modern society.  It equals options of motion and acquisition in society.

 

In the desert, in the deep forest?   it's paper and metal.

Whether is Daoist or Buddhist or most of the religions, I tend to see there are always where the money is, just like culture, they lean more where the well offs can pay and pay good money. I have never seen none of those religious movements or religions in impoverished areas or build temples, churches or congregations in the hood, only those who start little and then becomes megachurches. There is something wrong in the picture imho

17 hours ago, SongShuhang said:

So it's like body-positive movement when people realize unfairness and inequality that is out there, but instead of actually working on themselves, they deny the reality and protest for their rights to change nothing and feel good about it.

 

I don't see the point about inequality. One thing for sure the image distortion in this image says it all. It seems obvious that her face is taken as a model, not the average type of facial and her body doesn't show what it really looks like. Reality is different and marketing images we see everywhere are another way to manipulate medias.

I found this clearly explained about inequality and something to think about comparing to Daoist thinking:

4 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Hi Mig. Can I answer your question here with another question? Have Daoists ever been oppressed?

Aren't they part of the population who was oppressed for centuries? I think they were in the same boat as everybody else and this is the reason why I think there are many thoughts to ponder from the Daoist perspective. Daoists seem to have had a tradition of utopias. An example of founding ideal societies is the Yellow Turban (Huangjin 黃巾) during times of oppression.

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

If we approach the scriptures of religions, we can always find references to all types of issues, inequality being one of them.  However the religions and the societies or even the culture may pay little attention to such.  

Very true and certainly works to attract more believers.

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Inequality, unfortunately, is one.  As in previous posts from different members, it is not a prominent nor explicit teaching of Taoism.   The Chinese societies and religions pay scant attention to it, even up to today.

Where do you base your as not being explicit teaching in Daoism?

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Perhaps the idea of inequality stems from an equal citizenship.  In the age of empires, who would dare to think of being equal to the kings and emperors.  Confucianism divides the societies into strata, let say the teachers are so much above a person, only slightly below the father. No equality here.

 

The Taoism influenced societies do appreciate fairness and justice which has an element of inequality.  But the modern western concept of inequality is almost nonexistent in the 2000 years.

It seems that historically, poverty or inequality had already existed as a way of living but today the world is different and inequality is a common denominator.

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

As China is under communist rule, Communism does stress on equality.  Perhaps @Mig can look into communist equality, which is now more relevant than a few writings in the scriptures.

I guess there are new policies to eradicate poverty which is very unusual during this time of human history.

https://www.ft.com/content/b818aece-4cd7-4c99-8b62-e52ae4aa1b21

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

On 10/29/2020 at 4:34 PM, Apech said:

Here we are in the middle of one of the most challenging turbulent years  (yeah I know its not the middle technically) but we have a lot that's going on that is ... well perhaps unsettling is the best word.  We are all cultivators/practitioners of various kinds and hues - and perhaps one mark of good practice or realisation might be how well we can balance ourselves, maintain harmony with change - while not being other worldly or detached from 'reality'.  The outer world is fascinating ... sometimes it starts out that way - then draws us in to turbulence - draws us off centre.

Indeed, we are living years of too much information, information that is apparently manipulated even many academic papers that need to be challenged, many ideas and natural laws that need to be refuted and still we know little and practically have no control of what's going on. It seems to me that what we are living now is the same humans have lived in the past, long past and the difference now is that information is there right in front of us.

On 10/29/2020 at 4:34 PM, Apech said:

 

We recently had a thread 'emotions are the path' and I wonder, bearing that in mind where we strike the balance between being in the world but not worldly?  Or is this a faulty concept in itself anyway?  Do we see the world as a kind of testing ground - or is it just illusion anyway?  

IMO, we are on both worlds. In the past Americans were known not to be aware about the world around them, today they are much aware and still people have no clue what's going on, they are completely not interested how much the world is important to them in their policies and economies. It seems to me that the world is more interested in their gadgets and less humanization. People are more interested in humanizing their pets and forget about the world in hunger and lack of basic quality of life.

On 10/29/2020 at 4:34 PM, Apech said:

 

I think different philosophies and systems give perspectives on this - and I guess my own approach is almost unconsciously drawn from various places - I tend to see things happening for a purpose to teach me something - although quite often I'm not totally clear what the lesson is.  So I'm interested in how other people tackle this tight rope walk we have to do between inner and outer.  Anything you have to say on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

It seems that there is more about ourselves to work on, learn more about compassion, conservation and humility. We are not there yet even for those who study philosophy or religion. I don't see action to make changes whether you are in the middle east, southeast Asia, central Europe or Latin America.

On 11/2/2020 at 1:39 PM, Taomeow said:

Observing the natural world closely is always very helpful when tackling taoist concepts.  As an old folk taoist song goes (which I saw quoted in a Chinese novel, Soul Mountain), 

"What do men cultivate?  A stick!  

What do women cultivate? A hole!"

Interesting note and wonder if this is the one from the English translation:

Men cultivate, what do they cultivate?
They cultivate a rod.
Women cultivate, what do they cultivate?
They cultivate a ditch.
There is a round of cheers and the old man wipes his mouth with his
hand.
When the rod is thrown into the ditch,
It becomes a leaping, lively eel – Ah!

On 11/4/2020 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said:

Doesn't matter what a Daoist does. 

** True enough although if we look at history episodes Daoists were involved in revolts or participated in uprising when inequality was beyond control. IMHO, at least we can learn something about this since we are living moments of disparity, misery and inequality.

On 11/4/2020 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said:

What matters is what you do.

Or is this all theoretical.. for study not for action.  Which is fine.  Most of us, Daoist or not, are not diving into poverty stricken areas to 'save' them.  Some, God bless them will, but it takes a special self sacrificing person.  

Indeed, is about doing not just talking about that issue. This is not about saving them, it is much more complicated but donating to those in need doesn't help. I would imagine that bringing everyone together to find ways to solve the problem is a start and then having a plan of action, bringing results and see if that works.

On 11/4/2020 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said:

 

for me, its chickens, I send out a flock or two each month thru Heifer.org, or so they claim.  Over a life time, I'll be responsible for 10,000's of birds.. maybe some bird flu too, but it's something. 

 

It might be the best thing one could do is work smart, work hard, get lucky and wealthy enough to open up some factories in poverty stricken areas that hire locals.  Pay'em a decent wage, and lift some families out of dire poverty.  How to make $$?  I find its very Daoist to find value in other people's garbage.  My family's business was reselling used corrugated boxes.  Bought'em by the ton, sold'em by the box.  Started in the 1930's, did quite well. 

Good for you and I applause your initiative. My curiosity started as I am reading the DDJ and ZZ , wondering how Daoism faces inequality whether is social or economical or how we can learn to find a balance living in society and how to move thru in society. Simple, certainly is to find that balance although my interest is how Daoists found in the DDJ or ZZ ideas  where you can inspire or leading by example. We are living interesting moments mostly thanks to digital revolution although we are forgetting what is around us and how much unbalance one can find in our little world and around the world.

I was expecting more from a Daoist perspective based on the Daoists classics. One chapter draw my attention DDJ Ch 75  and need more deep understanding. Poverty is nothing new in human history, we used to be poor and we knew nothing to be poor if we read what happened over hundred years. Today is a complex world and probably not as much different than as in ancient times (yes technology maybe one difference) and certainly native Chinese philosophies have thought about the problem of inequality whether is social, racial or financial. I still think there are other perspectives in which a Daoist will understand and act or do something about inequality. More to ponder and will get back after my readings.

thanks a bunch