8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I think one of the biggest things that got lost from Karate as well as Kung Fu were the grappling techniques which were originally part of both. I strongly believe this is why when the early UFC's and Gracie challenges happened TMA that were striking based like Karate and Kung Fu were dominated by BJJ (Brazilian Jujitsu). 

Kung fu is a generic term and many movements, holds, sweeps have similarities both in the north and south boxing styles. What is similar to Jujitsu is 摔跤: Shuāijiāo that has roots from ancient times, similar type of wrestling you find it in India and some African countries. So it was the same in Rome, back in the days of Nero, you remember him, right? As most everything in this country, it is all about marketing, trends and sensationalism so one can see the evolution of martial arts from regular boxing to Judo, Karate (kumite), Kung fu (Katas: forms mainly), full contact, kick boxing then MMA. Gracie's idea took off and remember that congress had banned UFC because it was too violent. Really, everyone in this country live in a violent society and glorify thugs and criminals so the so called fights evolved with too many restrictions. Now, remember that Gracie's didn't make it in the beginning because the prevalence of wrestling and boxing as being the sport of poor people so they were never supported by their government.

6 minutes ago, RobB said:

Finding out that BJJ was forming in Brazil (1917-1925) at the same time as Karate was developing in Japan (1912-1926) blows people's minds! 

How do you know that Karate developed during that time. I thought Karate was systematized in Okinawa in the 17th century ?? Just wondering

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

You are correct. Judo came out of Jujitsu. I believe back in the 1920's a Judo practitioner went to Brazil and began to teach. One of the students was the patriarch of the Gracie family Carlos Gracie. Back then Judo was still being called Jujitsu so when Carlos decided to make Jujitsu more functional (ie. throw out what was unnecessary and perfect further what did work) he named it Gracie Jujitsu. 

   Originally even early Judo had a lot of ground grappling but as the sport evolved it began to focus more on stand up throws and take downs and emphasize grappling less. On the other hand Gracie aka Brazilian Jujitsu emphasized ground grappling a lot. 

 

  It became popular in the states after UFC 1 when Royce Gracie won after beating every other opponent that he faced, which led to the modern phenomenon of MMA. 

Thank you for the clarification. I am sort of familiar of all those styles and if I remember correctly Judo became popular in the US after 45 and then Karate took over. What I find interesting is the way they market names and some become popular and some don't. Just like Pankration in the 70's that never took off or then after 90s sambo never became popular. Today, there is a controversy about how Royce fights were not equally fought or didn't have athletes prepared as what you have today.

On 12/10/2023 at 5:26 AM, Maddie said:

Japanese jiu jitsu was created by the samurai to be functional on the battlefield. Specifically a battlefield where everyone is wearing armor which is why there's not really a whole lot of strikes.

 

Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a derivative of that focused more on grappling and primarily a sport.

I thought that judo was the evolution of Jiu-jitsu to become the national sport. I understand that In Judo, much of the emphasis is weighted on standing techniques versus ground techniques. On the other hand, Jiu Jitsu is heavily focused on ground techniques with some standing techniques in the form of self-defense. Is Brazilian much different? Or was it marketed differently and the timing was right in the 90's when full contact, kick boxing were fading away that became popular? Or is it another trendy thing that is so common in the US?

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

to be useless, of course

to take it easy

The link for to take it easy is highlighted "wife", is that correct?

13 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Mig Bit unclear to me.

Those are the places I have lived and noticed the poor conditions an nice conditions of public restrooms. Back in the 80's when I went to mainland China the restrooms were a collective room, everyone doing their business and in the dorms, restrooms were very clean.

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

they are all from the original

no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

Alors là, tu m'épates , sacré Jean-Paul, what ZZ proposes?

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

@Mig Thanks for giving the example. Which country did this take place?

USA, in California, NY, Illinois, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas mostly in large cities. Same thing in France and I noticed more in Sweden, so different when I live in those places back in the 70s and 80s. Also, same scenario and even worse in Mexico, Central American countries and Peru

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Can you give an example with an actual IRL person, something that touched you personally?

Let see one example. While traveling and living in my van, I had to use public restrooms. Whenever I had to go to impoverished area, the restrooms were filthy, vandalized and not taken care so if I had to pee, I would go near a tree as it was disgusting just to stand in those restrooms. Then I would go to a public library in a decent area and the situation was the same. Lastly, I will stop in a nice residential area or well off place, the restrooms were clean, well taken care and had all you need. I came to the conclusion that people without education, entitled and selfish wouldn't even care about public facilities, even at work, they become just like many others. People who are educated they care better and try to keep their facilities in good shape so others can enjoy too. I saw that too in other countries, industrialized or third world countries. It seems to be a natural human trait to be selfish and care less.

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

https://www.google.nl/books/edition/Zhuangzi/sotIEAAAQBAJ?hl=nl&gbpv=1&dq=Zhuangzi++++A+New+Translation+of+the+Sayings+of+Master+Zhuang+as+Interpreted+by+Guo+Xiang&printsec=frontcover

Thanks for sharing. Do you have any feedback reading his translation and do you see any difference if you have read Watson or Mair?

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

There are so many very very very important issues, and almost no one anywhere cares about them. 

 

As a society all most people care about is being entertained, till they wind up in a nursing home.

It has become the norm where the influence of Hollywood, consumerism, selfishness and entitlement is now normal. And then after when they get older, everyone has a pity on them.

18 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no, none of them are based on his commentary. all of them are based on ZZ itself in Guo's redaction 

it is not important per se. the only reason why it could be somewhat interesting is that Guo butchered ZZ from 50 to 30 chapters, so peeps read Guo trying to guess what is it that he cut out. Otherwise his commentary is meaningless paraphrasing of ZZ

So tell me, all the translations we read all over, the Watson, Graham, Meir, Féng yǒu lán 冯友兰, etc., are those translations directly from the original, whatever is consider original, or shall we read by commentaries as the one Ziporyn did? If I understand correctly, one has to read each chapter and try to make sense with the way of thinking and the way it is understood today by whichever arbitrary comment. Or is there something else I am missing? It seems that in each story of each chapter there is more to ponder and understand and many thoughts are already in the Chinese mind as opposed to those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

On 11/30/2023 at 8:25 AM, Maddie said:

I do mindfulness, mantra, (Buddhist) Pilates, yoga, and Brazilian Jujutsu.

 

Just curious, is there a big difference between Brazilian and Japanese JJ?

 

 

 

 

On 5/21/2023 at 3:54 PM, Christopher Tricker said:

Using a few short examples, I compare my own translation to Watson's, Mair's, and Ziporyn's. I present the Chinese sinographs and discuss how each of us has gone about translating them. Here's a link:

https://www.thecicadaandthebird.com/why-this-new-translation-is-so-good

 

(Try to forgive the page title--why this new translation is so good. It's meant to be tongue-in-cheek.)

 

Great initiative in explaining those stories rather than just translating them without any explanation. I am discovering that behind each commentary there are more explanations that can be useful in real life situations and the metaphors are helpful to bring those stories more vivid captions about what the author wanted to convey. So there is a tradition in which is explained and I have found some explanations that fit well in the Chinese mind. I am finding that many of those stories became idiomatic expressions 成语 chéng yǔ and in this way I can understand better the translations. Thanks for sharing your own translations. They are very helpful.

On 7/30/2023 at 5:51 AM, whocoulditbe? said:

At some point I need to read the commentary by Guo Xiang (the guy who redacted the current version of the Zhuangzi). There's a translation by Richard John Lynn.

Why 郭象: Guō Xiàng commentary is important to read and understand 

莊 子 Zhuang zi? Aren't most of the translations based on his commentary? 

On 9/29/2023 at 6:37 PM, stirling said:

 

The Past and the Future are thoughts happening now.

 

Isn't that subjective? My past recollections are in the present because I am thinking about it now but those were past experiences that my memory helps me to live them again in my head. As for the future, I don't have a clue, those are just thoughts that may happen or may not happen or half happen depending on millions of circumstances. And what is your sentence related to Zhuang zǐ?

At the end, where that energy comes from? It's not about the origin but the energy comes from somewhere? The energy that makes move earth comes from somewhere. I'm not talking about the manifestation but the source of that propulsion, whatever makes this planet rotate and how energy starts. Just wondering 

On 9/29/2023 at 4:25 PM, ChiDragon said:

Here is the summary to conclude that Tao was invisible at the time before the sky and earth were born.
Chapters 14,21, and 25 support Line 3 of Chapter 1.

Line 3, Chapter 1
3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

Chapter 14 The Invisible Tao
1. View it couldn't see, name, and call it Colorless.
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.
3. Touch it couldn't feel, name it, and call it Formless.
13. Greet it cannot see its head.
14. Follow it cannot see its back.

Chapter 21 The description of the invisible Tao
1. The appearance of great virtue;
2. Only trails Tao.
3. This thing, Tao,
4. It's hazy and indistinctive.

Chapter 25 The Invisible Tao.
1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
2. Before heaven and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;

Did I miss something? Why calling it invisible as it seems that in the 5K words book is talking about the origin of things. If I read Zhuang zi:

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

What impact does that have on my reading of the DDJ?

 

 

Mostly on the meaning of words as many commentators have pointed out some words have evolved and you find in today's mandarin it doesn't mean the same thing 

On 9/25/2023 at 4:10 PM, ChiDragon said:

Line 3, Chapter 1
3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.
 

Laotze said Tao was invisible before and at the origin of the sky and earth. He will back up what he said in the later Chapters of the TTC. Is there anyone interested and would like to point out what are those chapters?

PS
We might start with Chapters 14 and 21.

What the purpose of saying that Lǎo zǐ wrote those lines about the Dào? As a reader, what's in it for me whether it was nameless or nothingness? What's the reason to understand those lines and how that can be helpful?

And what is the reason of the question?

  無名 and 有名 are key terms in the DDJ, and are found also in chapters 32, 37, and 41. It seems to me that isolating one term from one chapter may fall into confusion and the terms or the lines may be lost in translation. The editions by Heshang Gong and Wang Bi are popular and are used as a reference with all the commentaries from different scholars throughout ages. It seems to me that the importance is to know how those lines are helpful to understand the whole text and how to apply that knowledge for those who are interested in using it as practical manual and cultivation tool. Your thoughts?

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It maybe a little strange to a non-native speaker. As I had indicated before, Chinese characters, sometimes, can be a noun or verb based on the context. Laotze had used both "you" and "wu" many times as verbs and nouns. I believe that the first thing he did was in Chapter One. A bit of advice, it is not wise to interpret the classic DDJ with English thoughts, grammar or rules. Peace!

It seems that the whole concept of noun and verb is a very European concept that it makes me wonder if the ancient philologists or scholars paid attention to it or the explanation or commentary was more important. It also makes me wonder when a Chinese reader how they understand both terms,yǒu wú有无 in plain Chinese. I keep reading many postings focusing character by character and forgetting that the language had evolved for the past thousand years. The ancient Chinese apparently didn't rely on tones and the pronunciation was very different from today. So there was certainly another way to explain when they taught and learned from commentaries on how to interpret line by line, structure by structure and put it into perspective as a manual to be understood. Later in history we see how many terms changed and being used by different lineages as well as mixing Buddhist or confucianist concepts. I think what is important is to know what the native scholar can teach or explain how those terms can be understood.

Just saying

On 8/30/2023 at 1:25 PM, ChiDragon said:

Hi Mig, we have to look at it this way.
Earthquake is the course of nature. There is nothing we could do about it. Humans just have to cope with it. Thus only nature can interrupt human but not the other way around. In order to follow the course of nature by human is like you said: ".....and I better find refuge somewhere."

"Of course I have to follow day after day or night after night because that is how it is, nothing I can do about it. "
That is where "let nature take its course" comes into play.

In order to study and follow the philosophy of Laitze. We must keep in mind that "let nature take its course" is to hope for the best in all aspects.
 

Thanks and let's see if I follow you with this reasoning and probably I am overthinking. But for the sake of clarity, I have a garden in the backyard and if I let the nature takes it course, the garden will be devastated by insects, weeds and even the soil may lack nutrients, so I should just let nature do its thing? If I take care of my garden, I need to work daily to keep it clean, off insects, weeds and other mammals and birds that like my veggies or fruits and I feel that in obstructing nature. It seems that the Chinese term is more explicit than English when you say順其自然 shùn qí zì rán

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The whole idea in the philosophy of  Taoism is about Wu Wei(無為), let nature take its course, do not interrupt the course of nature. It seems you have a good grips of Taoism.

I am always lost with those big words and sentences that anyone can get lost. What does: "let nature take its course". Could you give an example? Of course I have to follow day after day or night after night because that is how it is, nothing I can do about it. If there is an earthquake I cannot follow the devastation of destruction and I better find refuge somewhere. Also, I cannot do anything about or against an earthquake. So what is left? How can I do not interrupt the course of nature?

Thanks

Have you checked this:

I ching numerology : based on Shao Yung's classic Plum blossom numerology