Pilgrim

Just now, Apech said:

 

 

Nice song.  What I'm saying is not philosophical at all.  

Did not mean to imply that it was.  Just the oh what is the right term...  The way the words flow.  Mostly this part but included the rest to keep the song whole. 

 

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean

 

That is such a great line.

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Well, I just feel that tantra does not abstract the symbol of a thing from a thing.  Of course emptiness/bliss is not a dancing girl, but on the other hand the dancing girl is emptiness/bliss.  If you see what I mean.

Well now that just reminded me of a twisty song...  sung by Edie Brickel

 

 

 

HI ((🖐))

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

It's Tilopa not Talopa - not that it matters much given it's a transliteration from Sanskrit/Tibetan.

 

The origin of Buddha-tantra is a little obscure but it does seem that Tantra emerged from the Kula/Kaula traditions which were clan lineages within families and then larger groups.  It is likely but not proved that Daoist Neidan influenced the Buddha and Yoga-tantras in the development of the chakra and energy systems - there was quite a lot of influence between China and India which is not always recognised.  Buddha-tantra practitioners would argue that the Buddha taught something like tantra and since he taught 84,000 dharmas and said himself these were like a handful of leaves compared to a forest there is no reason to doubt that he used every kind of practice to help those that sought liberation through him.

 

So I think its not so much that the Buddhists and Bon added this to their tradition but that it was always there although hidden because of the 'transgressive' nature of some of the sex and ingestion of 'impure' substances and so on.  The Mahasiddhas who lived in India from about 600 - 1300 AD explicitly taught these things - and this was the last cycle of development i.e. Vajrayana as Buddhism died out in India by about 1300 AD and was continued elsewhere particularly India.

 

Tantra isn't a about sex in the normal sense although it uses sexual imagery and indeed the Mahasiddhas saw 'emptiness' or sunyata as a naked 16 year old dancing girl and wrote love poems to her.  Which kind of nails the argument that emptiness is some boring rational philosophical concept as it is often portrayed these days.

Thanks for the additional information well done! 

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

This was my experience as well.  I only had to make a little effort to not breath at the beginning of the first two times, because it's a natural instinct.  Later I tried it lying down without all the mouth noises, and experienced similar to what you are describing, and I discovered some cool stuff, like i figured out how to control my heart rate and slow it way down, but I was chicken to try to slow it all the way down or do it for too long.  

 

Them Mr. Hof sez to focus on your pineal gland to energize it.  Lately I've only been practicing getting my crown point super energized so it sends out that beam of energy, and whew, it can get annoyingly strong feelings of energy (buzzing, tingling, itching, vibrating) at head top.

 

I tried focussing inside my head years ago but was unable, now I can feel energy inside my head so I was able to focus on the center of it and I felt the energy start to get stronger there..  

 

It is best not to mess with the heart you can inadvertently trigger an irregular heartbeat. This is not good because if you establish a neural pathway it can become chronic A Fib

 

It is with the feeble calm breath that comes from correct practice where the life force fills you so much very little breathing is needed that the switches get thrown lungs rest, heart rests mind ceases as ecstasies beyond description fill and overflow the awareness to the point where mind becomes one pointed and so still it dares not do anything least it interfere with the divine and it does this out of immense attraction and love as the mind is purified as well.

 

It is like coming home after being in a foreign land and finding all you thought were dead and gone are actually alive and well and it was just a nightmare.

 

then direct being followed by direct awareness is yours followed by the fall from grace and the descent into mortal life with human body.

 

Once this happens it changes you for ever. You will no longer fear death because you have become death itself. You will no longer fear life because you will have become life itself.  You will need time to grow into this however.

2 hours ago, rex said:

Cheers Pilgrim!

 

A fun but serious account of working with emotions, 09.55 to 16.10:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDGkZOaazL8

Thanks I have watched a little of her and she is an Immensely Enjoyable Wise Woman. Do you have affiliation with her?

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

What’s ruschen?

 

There are many Daoist (and non Daoist) systems that use this process (known as Zifa gong - sometimes as ‘spontaneous movement’)... it’s similar to Kriya I believe?

Not Kriya yoga but  yes as the word Kriya used as Oh don't mind him or her he or she is just having a Kriya refers to spontaneous movement as things are released even energy or when someone is acting in a releasing manner of some sort that might be quite disruptive to others. It is kind of a common phrase in India or so I have been told by people from India I know but not in the U.S. not sure of other locals.

 

3 hours ago, rex said:

The next group of people to appear on the scene are the doctors, and when they see this poison they are not alarmed; on the contrary, they are very pleased, since they have been looking for this particular poison. They know how to transform the poison into medicine rather than destroying it. This is the tantric approach of the Vajrayana, which does not abandon the negative emotions, but through the power of transformation uses their energy as a vehicle to bring realization.

Excellent post and you have the very meaning of Tantra here. This maps well with me. 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

I personally find the pleasure oriented personalities can miss the point, so to speak. Especially when there is an explosion of sexual energies which leads one to spend hours (sometimes better part of a day) in a state which I can only express as orgasmic. Only it is like an orgasm x 1000,000 (or more). It is hard to explain in words  

 

Looking back over this reply there is allot of stuff in here that must be explained from the perspective of experience with the India originated practice of Tummo.

 

What has been shared here in particular is certainly possible but the whole point of the practice is to use the pleasure to achieve one pointed absorption where all sensation of any kind ceases as the mind which is required to interpret pleasure ceases as well.

 

If someone is going into these orgasm X 1000,000 it is because they have lost control of the practice of Tummo and failed to return from the Jewel tip chakra and the secret chakra back to the field where the flame is held. The energy must be returned here and allowed to further feed the flame so the Bindu Drops will melt. 

 

I have purposely experimented with this error in application to see what was possible and it is most certainly a side track and a failure in the actual practice.

 

To do this is the very definition of pleasure seeking. 

 

To use pleasure as a vehicle of one pointed absorption requires not only a degree of development and maturity but familiarity with what follows as the basis for doing so in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

A less discriminative practitioner might start seeking that experience. But if transmuted properly, it can fuel the growth by quantum leaps and bounds. Imho, the key is whether the individual is grounded in and as pure awareness (as opposed to personality/mental identities).

Exactly.  I do not care for the term grounded. I prefer abides or identifies in pure awareness to a greater degree not a perfect degree just more predominant than personality and mental identities because  its the very trans-formative nature of such practices that render the Personality / Mental Identities less and less as the place from which one resides over time.

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

n my experience and opinion informed therefrom, most pleasure seekers lack the maturity to really break through to what I consider enlightenment. 

 

Agreed pleasure seeking leads to failure of the practice.

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

I think maybe this is tapping into something that some yogis do, where they can stop breathing for exteneded periods, so I'm going to try that again whilst lying down.

 

It is actually the opposite. I have a good friend who is a practitioner of this have tried it and tend to agree with freeform. I will also add that it is taking in Prana from the air as an outside source of fuel and likely does bolster the energy reserves of the kidneys and or run the intake of prana / QI throught the Kidney system and as such is probable very unsafe in the long run.

 

Retention of the breath is not something that is done on purpose in yoga, it is something that happens as a side effect of Samadhi and pure life force entering the system from the Crown Chakra.  

 

When the mind becomes one pointed enough and the absorption is complete and or very near complete and the zero point has been achieved from this zero point which is in itself like an inter-dimensional lens there is a great influx of raw life force from the other side of the lens.

 

The lens itself is single pointed stillness and silence. The lens is made up of mind stuff that requires no visualization at all only profound stillness and single pointed absorption.  When this happens the body does not require breathing for long periods of time and in very deep levels the heart stops beating as well. 

 

When you experience this you will know the most profound peace the most satisfying rest you have ever known. The problem is you will not want to come back either. Choose you Mahasamadhi well and have your earthly affairs and will in order.

36 minutes ago, dwai said:

pleasure seekers

There is a difference between pleasure oriented and pleasure seeking you have blended and confused this in your reply.

15 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Okay I have just been practising, as follows.   First I am deeply meditative and have scanned and embodied the physical body.

Next, I gently return to a painful memory, standing in front of my parents ... what am I feeling.

Just gently, not too much ... and the feeling comes, I am familiar with it ... but I "take an interest" in it.  I don't want to remember it the way I always remembered it.   I am interested in it, for the first time, what is it actually ?   Some emotions are difficult to describe, crawling, scrapping, racking, difficult to describe.

Nevertheless they are there.

They are, what they are.

Then I gently feel the energy of it (qi), the vibrational pattern.  I rest, and I let it arise and take interest in it.  I allow it.

Often it is faint, and on a small part of the body, (like the shoulder) ... so I try to gently bring it open, gently stretching it over larger area of the body, either by directly pulling the energy, or simply by scanning a neighbouring area to activate it.   Opening the energy, and going in to it, resting inside it.

Now it is more open.

Then I merge within it, I become one with it, and gently merge into it, dissolving into it, so that I am it, and it is me, through the whole body, slowly slowly I rest as it.   It can resist, it can flow, it can resolve, many things.   But I am one with it, as it.

And the rain falls, and the ground is wet.

 

Throughout there may be many words (thoughts) and memories associated with these things, but I release them.

 

This is very good.

There has also been mentioned Sex in this thread in conjunction with Tantra.

 

Did you know there are 3 levels of consort practice?

 

1st most crude less advanced practitioner level is between a male and a female.

 

2nd level is by meditative means where a consort is visualized and actualized.

 

3rd highest level is when the true consort arrives on her own by advancement in the practice of Tummo.

 

This also happens in Kriya at the higher levels. The automatic arrival of the consort.

 

In the automatic way there is no human body pairing, visualization nor sexual thought. The consort arrives when Shiva and Shakti are becoming in union within.

 

When this happens you may rest assured that the notion of mechanical energy with no living emotive quality or living quality is wiped out.

 

Even before the consort arrives through the practice of tummo or similar practices all such intellectual and lesser perceptions are replaced with direct knowing.

 

I know now some people have their minds very made up about how things are and there is no changing that nor am I attempting to.

 

You perceive what you do and that is good.

 

I will not argue such things rather let this post serve to those whose minds are not already closed to the idea of Tantra and the practice of tummo so they may research and decide for themselves.

 

There are active schools and lamas that do teach these things without all the controversy that surrounds others.

 

Ligmincha with TWR is one such place people may learn from.

6 hours ago, freeform said:

I think saying that in Tantric practices you ‘work with negative emotion’ is confusing things... You don’t work with the emotions, you work with the ‘substance’ underlying the emotion - which is Qi.

 

On the level of Qi there is no emotionality - there’s just Qi - it’s sort of mechanical. The aim is equanimity - not indulging in emotionality... but also not trying to ignore emotionality... and dealing with it (and many other mental qualities and aspects of consciousness) on the ‘level’ of Qi.

 

So for example in Daoist practice (which is also a Tantric path) what you experience as sadness has an energetic/Qi counterpart... when instead of focusing on the sadness, you engage at the level of Qi, you just experience a movement inwards - a sort of contraction/drawing in.

 

In this way you don’t ignore what’s clearly taking place, but you don’t indulge in experiencing emotionality...

Tantra came from India and was neither Buddhist, Bon, nor Daoist.

 

All these that followed are different.

 

Buddhism and Bon due to Talopa who was taught by female Tantrics and his student Naropa of the six yogas of Naropa.

 

The Buddhists saw it was good and added it into their ways as did the Bon.

 

Where the taoists come in is a mystery how did it come to pass taoists make any claim to Tantra?

 

Furthermore When Talopa was taught and initiated into Tantra it was by females.

 

Tantra was originally a female Yogini System of practice. Later co-opted by men it appears once it took root in Tibet. 

5 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

I think of it in terms of something I was taught, in an almost tantra context... There is clinging/grasping, and then there is openness. "Pain and misery oriented" reminded me of the clinging/grasping way of being. When we're enjoying things, we're open.

I agree with this and will say he is also being more literal than people might think.

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

The pleasure orientation is very important, very powerful, and very basic. If you are not pleasure-oriented, you can’t understand tantra.

 

This is correct as I have already responded earlier.  If people have a guilt association with pleasure as if it is somehow in opposition to whatever they conceive of as Spirituality then they will find Tantra intolerable from this very start.

 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

You have to be pleasure-oriented, because otherwise you are pain- and misery-oriented.

I think the author is trying to make a point too strongly and do not agree if you are not oriented this way then you are automatically oriented to the opposite.

 

1 hour ago, Pilgrim said:

But this is not a psychological trick of convincing yourself through positive thinking. It is an obvious, reasonable, and real thing. When you treat yourself well, you feel good. When you feel good, you dress yourself in good clothes and adorn yourself with beautiful ornaments. It is a very natural and basic way of relating to oneself.

 

Yes and he is saying it must be experienced and experiential.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

CT recently posted the following quote in his ongoing thread.  It makes some subtle and important points that I thought were worth discussing, and rather than distract from his quotes I decided to start a new thread...

 

The pleasure orientation is very important, very powerful, and very basic. If you are not pleasure-oriented, you can’t understand tantra. You have to be pleasure-oriented, because otherwise you are pain- and misery-oriented. But this is not a psychological trick of convincing yourself through positive thinking. It is an obvious, reasonable, and real thing. When you treat yourself well, you feel good. When you feel good, you dress yourself in good clothes and adorn yourself with beautiful ornaments. It is a very natural and basic way of relating to oneself.
 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

It is exactly what I have been trying to tell people for years. On certain websites with certain made up systems of Yoga they avoid any experience like the plague with lofty words and nonsensical ideals. Oh but you will become attached to experiences. 

 

Oh really I say, How pathetic and cowardly. How Droll. Experiences come and you should enjoy them. Experiences go and when they do you can remember them with fondness.

 

Nothing lasts it is all temporary and temporary cannot be permanently attached to.

 

Take your ecstasies to the limit and beyond you will not get hooked what you will get is something quite different. You will not become like the drug addict ever craving the next fix that is absurd.

 

The Pleasure orientation is very important indeed how else will you ever bring your mind to 1 pointed absorption.

 

Through dent of will?  Your will shall break long before mind will become one pointed and absorbed.

 

By belief in setting up an inner resonance on the level of mind with Mantra alone? This will not work other than in a very shallow and weak way.

 

Through years of practice which are likely only to culminate is deluding oneself and never comprehending Spaciousness and emptiness which must be done experientially and not intellectually.

 

Tantra is not a path for the weak or those too preoccupied with silly ideas and it takes a degree of maturity and a degree of Purification of the Sushumna channel and the Chakras which are tantamount to what I am calling maturity because until you do it is all intellectual clap trap without meaning.

 

If a person can not feel Divine Vibration and Electrical sensation, cannot hear Divine Sound, Cannot see divine light which is all  a creation and after effect of the friction of purification then they have no hope of grasping the ecstasies of Tantra or the pleasure that takes one beyond mind and human limited experience of life.

 

So start with Purification of the Sushumna Channel and the Chakras and cleanse them of the traits that are keeping one down in the mirk and the mire.

 

Kriya Yoga is a form of Tantra. It starts with Global Purification of the Sushumna the Chakras and the Nadis. As time goes on the mind and emotions which are codependent on these Astral Structures to manifest in the material world and bond with an otherwise  dead animal to living power of God.

 

As time goes on the mind and the emotions change.

6 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

I just sent it to Amazon for publishing.  When it comes online I'll put a link to it here.

 

Those who got the previous version can send them to me and I will send them an autographed copy of the edited version.  Or maybe you can hold on to your unedited versions and they'll be collectors items later. particularly if someone finds out I had accidentally revealed a secret Jedi cultivation technique which i edited out of this last version.  

Careful we Sith are Watching 

 

 

Lol feel your pain Brother, Feel it daily!

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Simple answers are  never real answers to complex human questions .

 

But its nice that you feel so sure about it .

Don’t recall respecting your opinion please feel free to keep it to yourself child.

How about thanks for buying the book you can read it and believe it or  Go Fork Yourself...

 

Anyone serious contact me here...

 

 He He He😀

13 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Sounds like you just smoked a joint, the miracle youth medicine from China.

 

 

Roll another one.

😉😆😁😄👏🏼👍🏻

7 hours ago, freeform said:

Life is suffering.

 

Thats what the Buddhists (the ones that manage to survive Ride’s death cells! 🤣) tell us.

 

It’s not only suffering.

 

But suffering is guaranteed.

 

Whether it’s the Royals or the pimps or the banksters - or droughts, hurricanes or lions or meningitis... 

 

One way or another we will experience suffering.

 

Even in the formless realms there is suffering...

 

There are two things you can do... 1) do something that alleviates a little bit of suffering for someone else. Or 2) do something that liberates you from suffering altogether (‘enlightenment’)... Preferably go for 1) and 2) both - because you’ll probably not manage enlightenment, but you can alleviate a lot of suffering while trying...

 

But idle complaining is (in my opinion) the least productive and most destructive thing to do.

Suffering is optional.

 

Pain is guaranteed but suffering is optional.

It is a far simpler answer.

 

The royals have bread the stupids and they are born to privlidge unearned and live in a fantasy world where none of the conflict they create ever touches them.

 

The “Them” are in charge, were before you were born,  will be after you die or their retarded entitled,  inbreed offspring will be after you are all dead.

 

Any other elimentary  questions?