Pilgrim

Tibetan_Ice

 

Thank you for your reply, it has not been ignored, it has just taken time to come to the point of assimilating the weight of the insights offered. Having looked over the Forums and having seen the way you interact with others I am of the opinion you are possessed of keen insight and a sharp tongue.

 

The sharpness of the replies read however was backed by being correct and actually helpful if one can get over the initial pain and shock.

 

Due to this your reply has stuck and now a question concerning books followed by the topic of Dzogchen.

 

Do you have knowledge of this book and if so may I have your opinion of it? The ones already mentioned will soon be in the library. This one was found by the search term Dzogchen and struck a chord when previewed.

The Crystal And The Way Of Light: Sutra, Tantra And Dzogchen (Tibetan Buddhist Philosophy)

https://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Way-Light-Dzogchen-Philosophy-ebook/dp/B002BNKQ6W/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1479761450&sr=8-1

 

Lastly for now would you tell in your words about Dzogchen, having read your communications with others and being in a position to validate the things you shared concerning Tummo ( only by direct experience from practice ) it is easy for me to consider what you might share as correct.

 

Thank you,

 

Shared insight is appreciated.

I have had near death experiences. Here is how one occurred.

 

Drowning contrary to what some believe, is not a bad way to go, just remember if you ever find yourself in this kind of predicament to hold your breath until you black out, then you are good to go.

 

Yes it can be done you just hold your breath and when the urge to breath comes you let the body convulse and breath its own retained air by letting the lungs throat and abdomen pump like crazy but refuse to inhale water and refuse to exhale air.

 

Really all you have to do is refuse to inhale or exhale the body will freak out on it's own.

 

This will put you into an anaerobic state and soon the black clouds will form at the periphery of your vision and your awareness will pinpoint to a point  of light and then you will Know no more.

 

This is all very peaceful after a while if you have the ability to watch your own death.

 

The body convulsing is strange to watch and you do feel a bit sorry for the poor ignorant thing and would like to tell it to calm down but it will not listen and you know it, but it is only trying hard to live and do a good job so there is great compassion for the companion body.

 

This is a strange point of view to explain it is like when you try to pick up a pet and they know they are going to the vet, the poor thing just looses it's composure. Now that these words are written it may actually be the mind that is witnessed as loosing it's composure during the dying out.

 

Hmmmm..... Makes sense.

 

Even then you know it is over so it is not so bad in many ways it is a relief.

 

I never saw a tunnel, or anything else in fact it was just as I described it above going out to a darkness so dark that it does not even matter, silence so quiet that it does not matter, a peace so profound of restfulness like even the best sleep can never give, a stillness so still there is no mind to report anything and how could it anyway without sensory apparatus? Mostly there is freedom.

 

"The Freedom from Self Awareness, a Freedom from Being Aware of Being Aware" This being aware of being aware is a tremendous burden sentient beings are so afraid of not ever being aware of being aware and all worries and fears find their beginning right here with his one preoccupation of the mind. this then turns into horrible perversions in the world all for the sake of self preservation and aggrandizement of an impermanent self.

 

After being rescued and returning to the body life it was the opposite of going out.

 

Coming back is  like being born. It reminds me of coming out of the vagina into the bright lights the cold air and the anxious people grabbing and pulling and holding with all kinds a loud noises but not as disorienting because the brain and organs are more developed.

 

Coming back is the opposite of going out.

 

When going out the black clouds shimmy and shake with a rushing noise in the ears and the vision pinpoints as the blackness irises forward shutting out the light to a bright pinpoint before totality of separation from body life.

 

In the coming back you are aware of a point of light in the distance. This point of light gets your attention but you are still pure awareness which is not self aware.

 

This leads to the certainty that there is no such thing as a self to begin with until you become self conscious which requires a body and a mind.

 

Without body there is no mind. Without mind there is no self, to be self conscious. Only sentient beings living in bodies have this predicament of Self Realization. Quite amusing from a certain point of view considering how much it has been sold as a big thing.

 

By the very act of lending this pinpoint of light attention it is as if you move towards it, like you are getting pulled by it and there is a feeling of,oh no and inevitability that you are caught and there is no getting free of this grasp of human life becoming self aware, of being aware & self conscious.

 

The entire process is very subjective, darkness could also be said to be pulling back.

 

It is like poking your head through a sleeve of a very close knit sweater without texture only gravity itself is pulling your head through the sleeve. Not forceps.

 

As you come closer and closer to the end of the sleeve you get more and more light and the mind then becomes self aware of its own awareness and the body is vibrating I literally felt electric vibration in the heart and the lungs and all throughout the body as the switch of involvement with a body was thrown on again and the body re-energized with current.

 

I saw the sky and did not know what it was I was looking at and then realized it was the sky because it was blue and there were white puffy clouds. I remembered what sky meant. Then I remembered what had just happened.

 

And this is how it was.

 

When the Samadhi of no heart beat is returned from it is also a allot like this but the transitions are smoother but not so much different. You do however regain self awareness more smoothly and early enough to watch what it is like to not have a mind, a heartbeat or the need to breath. This is very nice.

 

Where ones awareness is in a state of no longer being aware of being aware is identical.

 

Wherever that is, is something allot better than just okay.

 

The return from near death and the return from Samadhi of no heart beating and no lungs breathing both have one thing in common.

 

Sorrow & Regret.

 

Regret and sadness that you are aware of being aware.

 

Regret to be here now compared to the not knowing you just were. Where ever that was whatever it is it is a completeness and it is good.

 

This fades, but you carry it in the pit of your heart and no one can say why it should be like this only that it is.

 

Life is good.

 

Death is not being self aware.

 

It is good also.

 

You do not know how good Death is until you come back on line and become self aware of being aware, the self consciousness aspect of awareness is what all sentient beings cling to in great fear of loosing what is a conditional aspect of our existence that is entirely codependent on so many factors as to defy calculation.

 

You do not know how Good life is until the light is being closed off and there is regret that is is so but there is also a great inward sigh of relief. Ahhh finally at last, rest......

 

That which is not so good is the transitioning, from one state to the other.

 

Transitioning is the rough part.

 

It is during this transitioning however that insights are gained because one is fully here one finds oneself or not as the case may be and either are good.

 

When it comes to transitioning brought about by practices the transition out is very good all is alive with a very high state of energy the highest in the brain and the spinal cord and the entire body is filled with feelings so wonderful as to be having an electric orgasm in every cell as the cells of the body vibrate beyond there ability to contain the golden light that comes in waves upon waves building to higher and higher energetic states so that it feels as if the ail around you might start crackling.

 

Then you become aware of a light in the distance and realize you were not.

 

You have no idea for how long you were not.

 

Then there is regret at becoming again.

 

Then there is reluctance to continue in the direction of life.

 

So the transition back to body life is filled with sadness and regret and sorrow. Why this is so I do not know. From this I can only assume that which can not come back with me must be wonderful. There is no memory of what that is but the closest analogy is something like this.

 

Imagine what it is like to be 18 or 19 years old again in the full upward swing of young adult youth when emotions run high and everything matters so very much out of proportion to what your older self would think.

 

Love is more intense, longing is more desperate.

 

You are a Handsome young man with a good body and your lady is a beautiful young woman with a great body you have the most amazing sex together and when it is over can not help but fall in each others arms with deep admiration and mutual love and respect and tenderness that when considered in that moment chokes the throat and constricts the heart with appreciation for the fleeting moment.

 

You feel OH so lucky all over again with a magnetic desire that holds you together sharing your warmth and every time you have to go to work it is with a feeling of desperate anguish at the separation.

 

Over time through repetition you realize that this great feeling is an is agony because it does not last.

 

The coming together again is so intoxicating you maintain this cycle of anguish and ecstasy yet in the times of separation the  there is suffering. Then you focus on your work and it becomes ok there also. If you can feel these words then you have an idea of what the transitioning back phase is like.

 

You are leaving your beloved and can never see her ever again, because to do so means death.

 

You are also blessed to have life and there is a comfort because you know that one day after fulfilling the obligations of life you will get to return to your beloved and this changes the perspective from dread or acceptance of the inevitable to one of getting ones gift back.

 

The normal death transition will still be rough.

 

The practice led type of transitioning is one where you just let it all in, dropping all your guards letting it all out and you realize that the you, that is, is something much, much bigger than the body and at some point you laugh with the realization and wonder how was I ever contained in here?

 

Neither state has been permanent in my experience both are transitional and I fully expect and allow that my ability to perceive is not so well developed as others, otherwise perhaps I could report about angels and other things but for me there was only a stillness and a peace that defies all description.

 

It can also be said that the death side of things is like still being turned on it is not like the body dies and you get turned off like a light switch.

 

It is like the core of you remains on, but it is being on, in a different way and there is no awareness of your own existence let alone anyone else.

 

Somehow this is good but it is impossible to explain and even more impossible to expect anyone to understand but the attempt is made anyway, perhaps it will alleviate suffering?

" Loosing the body" Ah yes this is what occurs as a side effect or after effect of Kriya Practices.

 

This takes quite a while to adjust to when plans need to be made. Often I find it is best just to put the issue at hand out there and let it just come to me by giving it a quick focus. My current state of awareness is lucid and present but not fully engaged with any one thing and time has a way of slipping past very swiftly.

 

Those in close proximity to me also comment where has the day gone why is time passing so fast. This is odd but just the way it is. Why this is I do not know without delving into odd speculation.

 

Please forgive the references to other ways especially systematic dogmatic methodologies as they are all I have to work with as a point of reference.

 

Let me explain more about my path perhaps someone will say here based upon what you have shared this is a good step, not having shared enough it makes it difficult for someone to know where I am coming from.

 

Kriya was not something I decided looked good because I read a book and decided ah yes supernatural abilities, Self Realization etc... etc.. Belief this belief that was the goal.

 

What happened here was the internal energies moved on their own, this led to research, this led to discovery, this led to experience this led to disgust with all manner of organized anything.

 

In the beginning I chose what I thought was the most free from trappings and formal involvement way of sitting for inner exploration I thought was possible. ZEN as in sitting ZEN or ZAZEN.

 

This ZAZEN of letting things happen turned out to not be so good. Within a short time many energetic experiences that got out of control occurred all starting from simple counting of 1 to 10 while focused on the Hara and letting mind drop. Bliss was present for certain and very pleasant feelings in the body that nothing can rival, but there was pain to follow.

 

This led to more formalized methods of practices with a methodology of purification and guidance of the energy. = Kriya Yoga.

 

This research via practice took years but the energy flows were managed not because there was a desire to be in control or guide anything really. The reason was simple to  allow the mind to be still and natural. Once mind dropped however so did the filters to the tremendous energies we all have within.

 

The end result appears to have been that the nadis required a sufficient clearing so energy is not so disruptive. A pathway into the core of the Sushumna needed to be etched so the energy could flow freely into the centers.

 

Kriya was not a needed belief system, not a goal but a tool. A set of technologies but they have run their course.

 

If one cares to name the different hallmarks and stages reported by the Kriya Yogis then yes I can affirm they have been experienced things like the state without a heartbeat, Kechari Mudra forming naturally entering the star within the circle which leads to the realization of a super luminous realm and body which may be  something of a 20 to 30 year old mature form of what was once an embryonic body of energy that ones consciousness / awareness when fully developed may inhabit as the next stage of ones evolution or perhaps in in a standby mode awaiting corporeal death but they are a dead end in and of themselves.

 

It is nice to visit New York City but when you return it is just a memory with knowledge of certain things and speculations about others.

 

Eventually things like the blending of the masculine and the feminine energies started happening on their own in an unpredictable fashion haphazard fashion.

 

If I recall this is called the savage woman in Tibetan parlance.

 

There are certain practices of Tummo where one envisions a consort.

 

In my case there was / is no need the consort took / takes her position during practice quite naturally when the energies are just so, as a byproduct of practices.

 

This led to trying to discover what was going on. The closest analogy was in a book covering the six Yogas of Naropa.

 

Oddly theses traditions depend very heavily on elaborate visualization.

 

With myself all of the inner is already happening without need to direct or guide through elaborate visualization. Guiding can all be done via intent of will coupled with feeling.

 

Chi, Prana or energy whatever one wishes to call it does not require visualization for one to know it is real. You feel it and know it is real with subtle mind you guide it, yes breath can be a help and a good crutch but even that is not needed except while going through the stages of becoming more subtle in a routine of practices.

 

The practice of Vase Breathing and Tummo are very easy to comprehend and are indeed a missing piece that Kriya never fulfilled. Like Kriya however the practice leads to the crown chakra. (Another dead end or so it seems unless it is meant to be a gradual process of development there?)

 

This has led to more research as somewhere there must be a more completed system and it appears the DAO based systems of energy have a better grasp of working with Chi.

 

I still have no idea what the end goal of this is or where it is even supposed to lead but a few things are certain there is a reason why this is a reoccurring theme in so many cultures over so many centuries.

 

The reason I am here is to ask is what is the purpose? I have no martial aspirations, no desire to set paper on fire or shock people as I have seen in some videos recently, becoming a healer is not likely, nor is becoming a teacher because the things I know require a student like myself to comprehend and a teacher that has gone where I have yet to tread and until then that puts me pretty far away from being a teacher or having any desire to teach.

 

To the best of my ability to conceive it appears the energy is transforming, the question is transforming into what?

 

Yes a calm mind and emotions are good. Yes being present without thought and reaction and invested in emotional turmoil are good, yes living in the now without being victimized by preconceived this is the way things are and this thing is like that and I guess what I am trying to say a world view that is codependent upon a subject object relationship for validity is all good but it is a bit of a vacuum and an intermediary stage or so it feels.

 

I have read that some practice to become a Buddha what ever that is.

 

I have read some practice to develop an Immortal body which for the life of me I can not figure out why anyone would want to be immortal.

 

That leaves the third option which may be the same as the first. "Becoming a Buddha." Not even sure what that means but suspect it may be the same as fulfilling the purpose of human life by transforming (pardon the over used example) from a Caterpillar into a Butterfly.

 

If this is the case then it would seem to be a good reason to explore and be all one can be. Do any of the DAO systems of working with energy cause a changing, maturing evolutionary, process to take place?

 

It seems to me that for one to move on one has to honor the blending of the masculine and the feminine and become Gender Complete. It also occurs to me allot of the DAOist energy work is about this.

 

Help and direction appreciated.

 

Thank you very much.

Hello Pilgrim, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

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Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi Pilgrim,

 

My thoughts while reading your post was that you might want to research the "state of Wu", that is, "Wu Wei".  It is possible to lose your body if you can attain this state.  Then the body would do only what it needs to do, naturally.

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

Hello and thank you for a warm welcome.

 

Would you have any good links for Wu Wei ?

 

What is meant by loosing the body? Are you referring to the state of Pratyahara?

Hello. Coming from the Kriya traditions. Have learned from different teachers in person all teach many good things and different things. Have been given permission and taught to teach and initiate others but do not.

 

The reason I do not teach or initiate is the same reason for arriving here.

 

From the practice of Kriya development occurred to be certain. In time the practices took on a new dimension that led to researching what was happening as no one and I mean no one knew what I was asking about.

 

Research revealed that the effects experienced were most like what is described in the six yogas of Naropa without all of the elaborate visualization. In other words all the things the visualization engenders without the visualization props to become more and more subtle.

 

More research shows the similarity between certain higher Kriyas of certain Kriya traditions but where the Kriya traditions stop the Tibetan practices seem to continue.

 

The Tibetain traditions however appear to fizzle out also and the practices still remain trapped in the crown chakra even after the blending and mixing is done.

 

It seems to me returning the drops to the crown is something of an incomplete practice. The similarities and out growth into the practices of DAOist traditions seem to more complete but there are many different paths or so it seems from the outside. Currently in research mode education appreciated.

 

Thank you.