Pilgrim

Ok.  Thanks.  I get what you are saying with the relative levels. Also, I think at a relative level buddhism has the same reincarnation concept that most Hindu traditions do.  The difference to me is more found in the definition of "nirvana" or the nature of realization. 

 

By full shutdown, I mean what neti-neti is describing...

 

 

 

 

Total unawareness.  Shutdown and completely gone.  In Buddhism, Daoism, Kashmir Shivaism and Mystical Christianity that is seen more as an intermediate state, before one has relearned to differentiate at what you could say is the higher level (of Self).  This is why there is the Zen quote of, first there is a mountain, then no mountain, and then a mountain again.  The mountain is the ability to differentiate.

 

Since one is now all of Self, but still able to differentiate, one has natural compassion for others. This differentiation point is also why buddhas are said to have three bodies.  The dharmakaya is sort of like shutdown Self level, while the Sambkogakaya and Nirmankaya are bodies that work inside the system to help sentient beings.

 

So the text I posted is kind of like saying, don't just stop and hit the complete shutdown, but continue on to further differentiate again so you can help all of those sentient beings realize for themselves.

 

I agree what Neti Neti is describing is not it

 

 

The jnani is in total unawareness. He is all, and from unawareness, sees only himself.

 

That in and of itself is a level. This is also not the end.

 

I like the phrase

 

 

before one has relearned to differentiate at what you could say is the higher level (of Self).

 

This has the ring of truth to it and is experientially matching. I have written on this in the past without as clean a vocabulary. In my way of speaking I would say it as follows:

 

One of the reasons I practice Kriya Yoga daily, is to die daily. This would be the shut down. These are the various Samadhi States.

 

An intelligent person will say but Pilgrim you have already come back from the Samadhi where there is no heart beat, where there is no breath, where there is nothing remotly able to be told about it because there is no mind.

 

Why then Pilgrim would you continue??

 

I asked myself this but knew the answer before the question was formed.

 

The answer is because with each entry the ability to be more than just gone increases. More refined ability to be present in those places.

 

Other than that even a corpse can achieve the state without heartbeat and breath, but how many can come back?

 

That is an extreme and dangerous state because you are so far removed from living as a human that there is no interest in picking up a mind and returning.

 

Not dangerous to the self but dangerous to this I typing because there are those I love and care about that would suffer not being able to comprehend and no wife should find a corpse like that.

 

This is how I would explain it as my truest form of expression is sharing experience. Well the parts that can be anyway.

on the contrary

Please do tell.

Ok. Thanks.  What you are describing here is not the classic Self framework.  Is there some broader Brahman thing that everything is inside of?  And does each person have their own discrete Shiviac Entites and domain, or is each domain like a separate universe?  How is a Self different than your Shiviac Entities and domain?

 

On cease, it means the complete shutdown at all levels. Which is what I think others have been saying happens in this thread.

Search me? I don't know. Just trying on some theories for size.  I only know what I know from experience. Really scholarly things like this ism or that are not my thing when something fits it is just known.

 

I think what I am trying to describe is a bit like Riju used to talk about.

 

What does shutdown on all levels mean?

 

Might it not also mean oh I don't know how about actually going beyond there even being a seperate self altogehter.

 

In allot of ways Buddishm seems like a level of mind where people just get stuck. Buddishm has always struck  me as somewhat afraid of death and wanting to continue if not in a vehicle of meat then in a vehicle of energy.

Your choice. You can "cease" if you want, but some prefer to continue on to help others (Buddha/Christ/Ruler Immortal).

 

The virtual machine can overlay the main machine.  Realize that it is not really separate or virtual. Also the main machine is not some brain dead thing, it is fully aware...

What is there definition of Cease?





The Virtual Machine analogy I made was was in response to Shiva not Buddhism but then again it could fit if one considers Shiva a Buddha universe and all within his virtual realm as Virtual Machines.





You can have a Hardware server but it always requires a primary operating system even for example, bare metal hypervisors like VMware but you are a fool to also have your primary domain controller located there as well.




The operating system is minimal but without it there would be no environment for the files comprising the virtualized operating systmes weither they be Windows based, Linux based etc... there would be no way for the Virtual machines to access or utilize the hardware of the host which by definition is still an operating system.

 

So in my Analogy Shiva is the Hypervisor, but he is not the only one.

 

The Primary Domain Controller acts as authentication control for the network and provides DNS so it should be outside of the Hypervisor.

 

The Virtual Machines achieve network connectivity via DNS and are able to connect to others across the intranet and internet  with one another but can also be granted access rights to one another via the Hypervisor.

 

The internet is the medium operating via DNS that allows seperate Shiviac entities to allow communication between there virtual Machines.

 

But the kicker is that the internet is nothing more than linked Shiviac Entites and thier respective domains.

 

The virtual machines however are not prevented from crossing domains but the access levels and permissions are different in different domains.

 

The Self then is dependant on a domain but able to cross domains at will.

 

I think we as humans are managing to engineer what already is.

Oops already covered

Have any of these feats ever been recorded?

Yes many eyewitness accounts recorded.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Varanasi-Legends-Teachings-Trailingaswami/dp/8190120085

 

The book is very expensive I waited for the price to drop and purchased at $35.00 bu that is the lowest I have ever seen it.

Yes, I would agree with the point that what needs to be investigated is "who you are"...

 

It is your "null and void" point where there is the disagreement. While all that appears (or is heard with your quote) in consciousness, such consciousness is reflection (or translation) in mind. Dive as deep as you want into your Self consciousness, and I can still find your differentiated signature of primordial being.

 

Buddha would describe it like this...

 

When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. There is one danger against which they must be on their guard. Disciples may not appreciate that the mind-system, because of its accumulated habit-energy, goes on fuctioning, more or less unconsciously, as long as they live. They may sometimes think that they can expedite the attainment of their goal of tranquilisation by entirely supressing the activities of the mind-system. This is a mistake, for even if the activities of the mind are supressed, the mind will still go on fuctioning because the seeds of habit-energy will still remain in it. What they think is extinction of mind, is really the non-fuctioning of the mind's external world to which they are no longer attached. That is, the goal if tranquilisation is to be reached not by supressing all mind activity but by getting rid of discriminations and attachments.

 

-Lankavatara sutra

 

Need to drop those pesky vasanas...

 

 

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

Why?

 

It's a matter of perspective, or levels of understanding. At its a core, a basic confounding of the subject which was never the object. The ultimate understanding is that there is no jiva or even the concept of a jiva(and therefore no jivanmukta).

 

Or said another way, I am, before the body ever came into the picture. But from the level of understanding that the jiva has any reality unto itself, the idea is that behaviors continue as they must. For the jiva and jivanmukta alike, they will continue through the bodily form in accordance with one's yet to be exhausted "vasanas." The difference lies in that by being firmly established in the Absolute, the jivanmukta has transcended them and merely plays out the latent tendencies of the bodily form within his "final incarnation." Whereas the jiva, trapped in bondage by chains of his own making, will continue to "reincarnate" in accordance with those "vasanas" unless they are transcended by Self-realization.

 

From the level of understanding that jiva is Shiva, the jiva can do nothing as the jiva does not exist. Thus, any question, including the question of bondage is a moot point. Further... what talk can be had of earthly pleasures when one is, in reality, an embodiment of uninterrupted Bliss Absolute?

 

According to this description Shiva would be the host machine and all the JIva would be virtual machines. A software centric approach.

 

Lol you still need substantial hardware in the datacenter to pull this off.

 

You have people like Chogyam Trungpa, who was an alcoholic and sexually promiscuous, yet most who knew him said he was highly realised, the video of his death suggests he may have achieved rainbow body also even though he drunk himself to death.

 

One of the most fundamental personal realisations I have had is that awakening never has to fit in to our minds preconceptions of what it should look like. Yet it is a tricky area as some do use it to excuse all kinds of abusive behaviour.

 

This is a very good point. For some reason people have latched onto the idea that saints should act saintly.

 

For some reason Gurus should have no warts.

 

For some reason it should be white flowing robes and Moses like stature.

 

If someone thinks that is it then God help them they are in for a big dissapointment. That type of person never existed in the first place. When you come into that types presence better leave your wallet at home.

 

One of my favorite historic figures in Yoga Literature of Bengal is Trilanga Swami highly advanced and was something like 400 pounds walking aroud stark naked.

 

He was known to pull some pretty outrageous stunts to get his point across and there are many stories of highly advanced yogis that also were Opium users and tobacco users and drunks.

 

Could it be that perhaps once they got it they are just having some fun not carying too much about life or how long they will be in it because they realized it is a difference that makes no difference at all?

 

Maybe but then again they could just be regular people that are having a ball.

 

Except some of them are known to do things that ordinary people can not. Drinking tubes of Lie for example, shitting in their own hand and transforming it into sandal paste aroma and all, to prove the point of nothing making a difference, eating hot coals, being imprisoned only to be found on the roof of the jailhouse, walking on water the reports go on and on.

 

Is there a difference to the self?

 

Not one Iota.

So does that mean that when you follow your loop and return to society, "you" are no longer there? You don't interact with any of those people in society?  You make no decisions or choices with the people you interact with?

Oh you know better than that.

Yes in fact the detail is suprising especially concerning Kriyas 2 through 4. This is not another one of the books making promises like the monastics puke out and then beat around the bush.

This came as a bit of a surprise this morning but a welcome one.

Last Friday morning while talking to Sri Mukherjee in India via Skype he informed me his two volume book would be published at the end of the month.

Evidently the person helping him completed the edits early and both volumes were published today on Amazon as both Kindle and Paperback.

I have began reading Volume 1 and so far it is the same as being with him in person. Surprisingly so. If a person reads these books he or she will come away with the personality of the Author amazing how he managed that with help from editors.

It looks like he is kicking out all the stops and has written things exactly as he taught them including material only discussed in person as well.

Anyone interested can find the books here.

Original Kriya Yoga Volume I: Step-by-step Guide to Salvation

https://www.amazon.c...alvation kindle

& Here:

https://www.amazon.c...alvation kindle

Kindle which for some reason is not linked with the paperback.

https://www.amazon.c...alvation kindle

& Here

https://www.amazon.com/Original-Kriya-Yoga-Step-step-ebook/dp/B06W9N9CX3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487600304&sr=8-1&keywords=Original+Kriya+Yoga+Volume+2%3A+Step-by-step+Guide+to+Salvation+Kindle+Edition


 

This came as a bit of a surprise this morning but a welcome one.

Last Friday morning while talking to Sri Mukherjee in India via Skype he informed me his two volume book would be published at the end of the month.

Evidently the person helping him completed the edits early and both volumes were published today on Amazon as both Kindle and Paperback.

I have began reading Volume 1 and so far it is the same as being with him in person. Surprisingly so. If a person reads these books he or she will come away with the personality of the Author amazing how he managed that with help from editors.

It looks like he is kicking out all the stops and has written things exactly as he taught them including material only discussed in person as well.

Anyone interested can find the books here.

Original Kriya Yoga Volume I: Step-by-step Guide to Salvation

https://www.amazon.c...alvation kindle

& Here:

https://www.amazon.c...alvation kindle

Kindle which for some reason is not linked with the paperback.

https://www.amazon.c...alvation kindle

& Here

Original Kriya Yoga Volume 2: Step-by-step Guide to Salvation Kindle Edition

https://www.amazon.c... Kindle Edition
 

I like this Mooji he reminds me of Pat Morita from Karate Kid and Jessie L Martin playing the Flash's dad on the CW T. V. Show There is something sweet and wise about him ,so sorry to have missed meeting him, thank you Bindi

I've never tried that...but now I know

Did it work?

Don't be too serious.

I do not mean to intrude in your conversation, but buddhists do not unite the Nirmankaya, Sambkogakaya and Dharamkayas. The  kayas are all the same body of buddha, just sort viewed as separate by those who can perceive them.  Additionally, it is not possible to realize the kayas by using a mantra, as being a buddha is "beyond mind", while a mantra is of mind.

Thanks for joining the conversation Jeff.

 

Absolutely correct Mantra is limited to mind.

 

Prana is limited to bodies Physical and Astral.

 

Once Astral Channels are open via the blending of Prana and Mantra, or Bodies and Mind then one has great bliss and then it is like a step up transformer and one goes beyond Mantra Mind , Prana life force and Bliss.

Yep.  We can call the undefinable anything we want to call it.

Lol no I meant Copperhead Snakes reproduce Asexually.

Hi,

 

Mantra alone is not a reliabel way. It can act as a Catalyst but on it's own, my God that is like pushing a rock up a hill with your nose.

 

When you make Pranyam with Mantra not as a seperate thing and thereby intigrate your mind with it then you are assured to purify the nadis. Attempting to push Prana without purifying the nadis is not wise, it leads to mental emotional and physical difficulties.

 

Can you give me a clear idea of what you personaly think Enlightenment is? After that let us discuss this more.

 

interesting article but they are making it alot more complicated that it is, it is a parallel to what I call Becoming Gender Complete. Keep an eye out for my PPF before long I will be addressing this concept of Gender Complete.

Yep.  Before One gave birth to Two there was only One.

Oh that easy, the One was a Copperhead snake.

First statement just comes across as bravado. Papaji lived a householder his entire adult life, till the point he passed away, so he knew what he was talking about...

 

Second - that's an interesting point. My experience is that there is no need for ego to do anything beyond the bare minimum required to sustain the mind-body complex. Otherwise it causes suffering that can be avoided...

 

Easier said than done though....

You betcha bravado enjoying myself a bit

 

AH thank you for the information, having only seen him talk on stage it was assumed he was not.

Mostly I reply in terms of being and becoming the stages of. Hopefully it makes sense.

 

Ah it would seem so but no.

 

To communicate like this requires mind and therefore ego, to interact at all requires ego. If you transcend you will be struck dumb like a Zen master that only utters MU. Within MU is everything and nothing. Another with comprehension understands, to others it sounds like cow noises.

 

When enjoying the sense of time is much different within each moment there is such transcendent joy. Orgasmic waves of being for such a one fulfillment beyond reckoning. Yet you are not trapped in a moment but flow like oil in tranquility. Interacting becomes somewhat painful because you have to tune into the scene and this is a rough vibration by comparison it is internally uncomfortable by comparison and in the beginning makes it difficult to go back home.

 

There is no such thing as mundane.

 

A lowered sense of imperative? This is a nice concept. But not it. Things that might have been a bother before mean nothing they have no emotional hooks. Effortless effort.

 

You can still prioritize but that is making an effort. Everything is known to be fine just the way it is. There is no reason to participate or not participate.

 

If you really get to it you will find that whatever is needed is provided and there is no reason to remember anything but if taken far enough you will by default be removed from society, family etc... this is because you will have shucked the identity anchors and quite possibly have a very different mind and personality at times as both are just overlays anyway.

 

It can be difficult without a friend to help explain but makes no difference to the core.

 

When you see naked sadhus in India this is how it is for the real ones, others are trying to make the external appearance match the internal desired state.

 

What happens is the mundane as it has been labeled is going on around you and you are aware of the intricacies of it on a different scale. Everything is in harmony at this scale. It is more of a macro awareness but one can slide up or down the scale.

 

Playing the game is not quite it, knowing better is not quite it.

 

Knowing that this is not the entirety of ones existance would be a closer way of saying it. This gives great comfort knowing you are always actually liberated already. Not conceptionaly but experientially otherwise you are a office worker walking around playing naked sadhu who would be better off putting there cloths back on.

 

Life is not a game, it is very real especially when what is described is known, it is just not the only real, it is important, just not the only important.

 

In order to function with others prioritize and remember one must either have caretakers like the Swami's do with others paying there way or come back down and reintegrate with the personality and ego the vehicles for these lifetimes.

 

Here is a danger.

 

The personality can change, the mind can change, the ego can change. There comes a time with repeated letting go and just being that when these vehicles are taken up again that one has grown more accustomed to the other. These vehicles then can be something other than those around you are accustomed to and if you have a committed relationship the time will come where the you who made the commitment has changed so much that it is no longer the same.

 

This can make for dramatic life changes unless one can stabilize back within the Jivic program one is incorporated into by virtue of birth.

 

This can happen in leaps or a little at a time. Contrived practices like Kriya Yoga accelerate things like this and can if rapidly accelerated enough lead to periods of mental and emotional distress and instability with very poor decisions as a result. One can even loose contact with their moral compass as it is an artifact of ego yet very important when interacting on the egoic planes, this is how we wind up with abusive gurus and horror stories and manipulations by cult leaders.

 

It does not have to be all or nothing and rarely is, mostly it is gradual until it is not.

 

Then a stage is reached where you are the living liberated meaning liberated but still incarnate and can choose to be beyond or be in the program but it is a false choice really as knowing both the program and the not program automatically speeds up the movement towards the not yet the cherry blossom is still beautiful even though it becomes more and more the stuff of a hologram.

 

The jiva then is in the world but becoming less and less of it per their comfort level but make no mistake they are on rhere way out so clinging is useless. It takes the time it takes, me I am a slow learner I like to explore and enjoy the scenery until I have consumed it all to satisfaction then with sated boredom firmly in place missing nothing move along missing nothing renouncing nothing but rather allowing everything to renounce me.

 

Still This I dies daily in the practice of Kriya Yoga and like the Phoenix reborn but with more refined feathers. It has taken years to learn how to do without overdoing.

Just a quick clarification:

Papaji stated memory was ego:

(From the original quote of the dialog with Papaji in the original post)

"You don't need memory

Memory is ego itself"

It is also my experience that this is true.

Interesting topic having poked some fun at it, will now try to be a little serious. This business of no memory / no ego is just so.

 

Been there done that, returned to participate in the incarnation given.

 

He is correct you can be so fully present that ego is not and with it memory as well and you can function as long as interactions with others or the life you are present to live in the first place do not require too much mental interaction. The minute you need to focus and pull something up you might find yourself like a frog on a hot plate though.

 

I would love to take all these popaji's and big talkers sitting on their dead ass and toss them into the salad of the real world earning a living, commuting and answering to clients and several bosses, repairing there home, vehicles, having a serious one on one daily committed relationship with another human being and just for fun throw in some kids and perhaps a dog and a puking cat so they can unexpectantly step in something unpleasant with bare feet once in a while then talk some shit for me.

 

Sure you can remove ego / memory and enjoy being present like anything the whole problem is you are so present that you will find yourself separate from everything and realize the play of the projector and that is good but you are still here so not so present as you might think but actually not present, to be here now you have to agree to play make believe and that means getting off your cloud.

I perceive ‘ego’ as we know it as misguided and immature, a damaged aspect of ourselves blindly churning out self-protecting and self-serving storylines. But with a lot of (appropriate) effort I believe this misguided ego consciousness can be refined in the heart, and then brought up to the UDT where it can be transformed into authentic compassion, and can take its rightful place in the service of the True Self.

UDT? Underwater Demolitions Team? Still sounds like some killing

I experienced the receding of the mind/ego into the heart recently. It was very distinct in that I was completely aware as I was falling asleep. First the body went to sleep and then the mind flowed back into the heart. If I recollect the condition, there was just awareness left, no personification.

Also known as Pratyahara, a step into Samadhi.

 

In another post you mention being aware even in deep sleep, this I can speak too and it is not what it is cracked up to be.