Robin

Dzogchen requires guru yoga, from what I've been taught, and the direct transmission of the enlightened state. Other Buddhist traditions simply give a method which we can follow. I'm confused. I have received Dzogchen teachings and am generally impressed with the teacher, although they make some pretty outlandish claims, viewed from a western viewpoint (transmutation of beans left in the back of a cave for a year from one type to another as an experiment in loosening a retreatant's fixed beliefs, for example. Or references to dragons.) So Dzogchen is this "high" teaching, very much steeped in Tibetan cultural beliefs. It's often glorified as the ultimate or best teaching by its practitioners. What am I to make of other traditions where there is no guru yoga, and no telepathic transmission? Are they inferior? Do they offer a lesser kind of enlightenment? Is the Tibetan tradition somehow elitist ("mahayana" implies assumed superiority, perhaps?) Do we need to hold our teachers in the kind of regard required by guru yoga? I've heard it said that these higher teachings were somehow given by Guatama Buddha as a kind of "silent aside" to those ready to receive them. I'm torn. On the one hand I've been "sold" dzogchen by a couple of people I kinda sorta trust on these matters. On the other, there are a great many people practicing outside of this tradition with methods which require less "suspension of disbelief" or which I can more easily empirically validate, while at the same time recognizing that things beyond my current ability to comprehend or perceive may require a certain amount of faith to remain open to. Does anyone here "feel me" on all this?

I've been involved with mediation for many years. Initially I was involved with Buddhist meditation but then I got involved with Taoist meditation through the teachings of Bruce Frantzis. Bruce often mentioned Dzogchen with high regard, so when Lama Lena (a highly esteemed Dzogchen teacher) came to teach for several years in a row very near to my home, I went along. I also came across Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche (a Bon Dzogchen teacher) mainly through his online content, although I did travel to see him once. I have some curiosity concerning two apparently different categories of meditation practice. With Inner Dissolving (Taoist meditation from Bruce Frantzis), and Dzogchen both from Lama Lena and Tenzin Rinpoche, there is a notion of "progression" in the sense that we have obscurations/blockages/"pagchas"(like neuroses in Tibetan), and that through practice over time we can resolve these to move closer towards "enlightenment"/clarity/healing etc... In all these traditions, there is the possibility of using an agenda to work with specific issues in our lives, with a view to dissolving/resolving them at some root energetic level. This makes sense to me, and gives some kind of sense of structure/progression to my practice. I am aware that there are certain paradoxes that come from the idea/reality that we are "already there" (non-duality teachings etc.), and yet there is a firm understanding from the teachers I follow that we do actually need to meditate to attain(?) the fruits of meditation. Like the last lesson of Marpa to Milrepa - to show the callouses on his arse to emphasize the need for practice! In other traditions I've come across, such as the teachings of the FWBO (whatever they are now know as), Zen, Mindfulness etc. there seems to be a conspicuously different attitude towards "progress". You do the practice, whether it's mindfulness of breathing or body scanning or even working with emotions by "simply being" with them - but there is no sense in the practices I have come across of working with specific issues/blockages and resolving them at a root or energetic(?) level. It's more like "here we are again looking at our minds and sensations...." with no particular sense of direction or need to attain/achieve anything. I know that the need to achieve anything is seen as a hindrance in both categories of practice, but this is in some ways something of a contradiction. While of course grasping will not lead to freedom, nonetheless there is an implicit intention to get somewhere/something, in the very decision to become involved in meditation in the first place. So these are some of the observations and thoughts I'm having around my practice at the moment. Partly wondering which practices to emphasize to help me navigate a chronic illness, and also wondering about the notion of progress and achievement in relation to meditation. Very curious to hear your thoughts on all this.

Thanks for this., and good to be reminded of the classic song. I think sometimes it's useful to focus on the reasons for leaving ( a teacher/marriage/cult etc.) to get the clarity we need to stop deliberating and make the cut. However, that is often not the whole story, and from the outside people can't always see the complexity. Like a marriage which was genuinely wonderful but grew to no longer serve either partner. Once the clarity is there that we need to end things, and maybe with some water under the bridge, we can grieve and honour the good stuff that had to end. Regarding my practice with Bruce, I'm clear that for the time being I don't want to pursue his spiritual work. However, the health stuff is great, and is deeply embodied in my system. It would probably be silly to go to the effort of trying to replace all the stuff I've learned from him with similar material from other sources. Nonetheless I am conflicted, and I can't pretend otherwise or sweep it under the rug, however simple the situation may seem from the outside. I value what has come to me via Bruce. I have a lot of respect for him and he has had a big positive impact on my life in many ways. However I can't deny that with my current perspective I find what appears to me as a lack of humility and warmth to be a source of genuine distress and confusion. I guess also there is some unease about the fact that I have criticized my teacher publicly. It is probably a complete non-issue but I haven't got to that point yet. From some of the messages I have receive it is as if I have committed some kind of sacrilege. So even if Bruce has no desire to be a cult leader (which I don't think he does), it looks like some people have given him that level of status in their own internal worlds. ON the other hand I've received many messages thanking and supporting me in speaking up about something which has bothered them. So overall it's probably for the best or at least of no consequence that I did what I did. However there is still a fire burning around it inside me, which won't be extinguished until it is extinguished. I'm very happy to hear any further thoughts and reflections on this, particularity with people who can empathize/sympathize with the non-polarized nature of the situation.

I've been having some issues recently attending online teachings with Bruce Frantzis. I posted about this on the Energyarts members' forum, and there was a certain amount of constructive dialogue, but the topic was not encouraged and commenting was turned off. I received a couple of very supportive private messages, as well as a particularly aggressive one condemning my expression of frustration. The stimulus for my original message, which I will paste below, is that I have chronic fatigue and attending teachings even online has an energetic cost associated with it. To then have the teaching involve numerous "statements of accomplishment" which don't appear to add value is frustrating for me. The specific example of Bruce telling us that his family were cardinals in the Greek church for 1000 years is a case in point. For one thing I'm not interested in learning more about Christianity, and for another family history is no guarantee of credentials. Another point is that in my opinion (as someone with many years experience as an educator myself), if someone chooses to teach, it is because they want to do so, and for this, students are required. So from my perspective, students are just as important to the event of teaching as the teacher, and worthy of the same respect and consideration. For me this perspective offers a counterpoint to the notion that since a teacher is generously sharing of their wisdom, we should therefore be "more than grateful." Of course gratitude is appropriate, but in proportion and not to then justify behaviors which trigger discomfort in others (with reasonable account taken of our own responsibility for our reactions to stimuli). The original post I made is below. I'm curious to hear if other people have had similar reactions to Bruce's teaching, and if so how they have worked with the tension between their appreciation of the quality of the teachings and any difficulties they have experienced in their relationship with the teacher. If anyone is thinking of suggesting I simply find another teacher and move on, believe me I have already thought of that. The issue is that I have invested many years learning Bruce's material and it is deeply ingrained in my body. It is not so simple to just forget it all and look elsewhere, and I don't necessarily want to, although I'm aware that having unresolved friction with one's teacher can negatively impact practice. Personally I think this issue ties into some important questions about learning energy arts in general, and is worth exploring for those who find it interesting to do so. I also think there is probably a difference between whether we are discussing health and martial arts practices vs the deeper work of meditation. Looking forward to your respectful comments, and if my original post, shown below, appears disrespectful I apologise. It was written whilst experiencing some exasperation. I feel like I've hit a wall learning from Bruce. I just find him too annoying. It seems like the greater part of what he has to say is about how amazing he is or how full his life has been or how crap most other stuff is compared to what he teaches. If I have to hear one more time about how well he knows Christianity because his family were big shots in the Church for 1000 years I might just scream! I've learned a great deal from Bruce over the years and I'm grateful for it all. For now though I think I need to learn his stuff only from his instructors and if I need spiritual input to get it from teachers I find less abrasive. As a parallel with Tibetan Buddhism, it may turn out that Bruce has been my root guru (I've had enough transmission of inner dissolving over the years to make this at least possible), but I don't think he'll ever be my heart guru, at least in this life.

I found this article to be pertinent and interesting: https://earthbalance-taichi.com/2020/02/the-anti-guru/

Thank you for sharing this. I will give it some thought.

I think I've been quite clear about this. I want clarity around what to practice and who to learn from moving forward, and to help me achieve this I'm interested in other peoples' experience. I'm not going to just imitate the answer I like best, but different perspectives can help to inform the totality of my process. I'm not looking for someone to give me the answer. There is no obligation to contribute, but personally I don't find questioning the premise of my request very helpful. In terms of reaching out to other students of Bruce's, that is partly what I am doing here. I shared a link on the Energy Arts forum to this thread. Some people have contacted me personally as a result.

While I do appreciate the advice some people have shared, I think it's important to remember that no one from the outside can know all the variables at play. I think it would be even more helpful to hear about others' experience of similar situations, key moments and deciding factors, and how they resolved them. I know of several people who moved on from Bruce after many years, and some who stayed in spite of difficulties. I imagine for all of them the process was not simple or clear cut, but that there were twists and turns before clarity was reached. Hearing about these would be helpful so I can compare and contrast and hopefully get some insight into my own unique situation. With hindsight, I expect the path forward will have been obvious, but until then, not so much. I hear what some people have said about over thinking and/or listening to my higher self who might already know the answer. This is certainly worth considering, but clarity cannot always be forced, and I may have to sit with the confusion a little longer until it emerges. In the meantime other people's insights are valuable to hear about.

I don't think they can necessarily be separated, and I'm not confident they should be, entirely.

While I certainly can overcome the "triggeredness", the question for me is whether I want to, as it may be entirely reasonable. It seems some people are OK with taking what serves them and ignoring the rest, which is fine, but for some, including me, it's not quite that simple. I guess for me there is something about harmony within the totality of my experience. I don't mean in a naive way, expecting no issues ever to arise, but a sense that overall there is harmony and balance.

I mean it doesn't really make sense and seems quite unnecessary. Sharing loads of life-enhancing material but coming across provocative and abrasive (in my perception), and alienating lots of one's students. That's what I mean by silly. Doesn't have to be like that and no perceivable benefit with apparent cost.

I'm not quite seeing any contradiction. Things have not got weird, but I know with deep mediation work they can. Another teacher I have guarantees she will respond to all emails, and strongly encourages you to write if things do in fact get weird.To be fair her following is probably smaller, as she's all about (Tibetan) mediation. My sense is that Bruce may or may not help if needed, and he can be very unapproachable in my experience. Sometimes warm and welcoming, sometimes seemingly downright hostile.

Hi saxgentleman67. I have and I do. He's great, and agreed, you don't get what really looks like the unnecessary baggage, from my current perspective. There's a couple of things though. One is that for meditation, the buck stops with Bruce - there's no one as "senior" to ask or get help from if things get weird, which they can. So even though Paul is a great teacher, I'm not currently convinced that I want to continue down this particular meditation path. As for health practices, I've learned a lot both from Bruce and his senior instructors. Generally I've been fine with practicing these and found them very helpful. But there is something about how a dissonance with the founder of the system can colour the experience of the practice. It certainly makes me more open to practicing stuff I've learned from other systems when I'm having one of my "triggered by Bruce" periods... Maybe eventually I will gravitate mostly towards other sources, or I'll get over my triggeredness. It seems like a silly situation. I imagine a lot of teachers have a smaller proportion of learners who find their teaching style and personality significantly challenging.

I can relate to the other issues you expressed, but this one not so much. It seems like a sound teaching method to me - get some core principles working in a first movement, then they can be transferred to the other movements. Learning more than a minimum amount of movement while learning the core principles could dilute both aspects, IMO.

One thing which makes the situation difficult to get a true read on is that 3rd parties often aren't aware of what it is that keeps his students loyal, up to whatever point they are. From my perspective this is to do with the genuine high quality of the material. Bruce makes a big deal about how good it is, which is unnecessary as it speaks for itself. There is an impressive depth of detail in the physical mechanics alone, such as the precise alignments, the use of the kwa (which is absent from many other Tai Chi instructors' knowledge from what I've seen), joint pulsing and tissue stretching to name a few. It comes at a cost though....

I'm curious to know how you see this applying to my situation. I can maybe guess, but would enjoy a little elaboration.

Hi Rob, That's where it started with me too - Wu Style Tai Chi at the Natural Health Centre in Brighton with Brian a long long time ago... Thanks for your input.

Hi Dwai, I don't know. There could well be value in what you suggest. Another take though is that I'm getting old and hopefully a little wise, am more aware of the alternatives and less willing to put up with things that jar me for the sake of gaining knowledge that may or may not be as unusually valuable as I've allowed myself to be led to believe.

Hi Sloppy Zhang. Your observation is very accurate and I'm surprised/impressed. To answer the quoted section specifically. I've developed a chronic illness over the last year which has made me hit the chi gung big time. Having mainly learned Bruce's system, that was the natural place to go, and I joined the Tao Space Live program. While there I saw that Bruce was teaching using sound/vibration for meditation which is a subject I've been fascinated in for years, so it reconnected me with that interest. I found the lessons a bit disappointing though, as they seemed fragmented and contained much of the familiar old triggers for me in terms of how my personality responds to Bruce's. Then during his first Tao Te Ching teaching recently, he was giving his background and someone commended that this was "just the same old rap", and something stirred in me. It was taking a lot of my limited energy to attend to teaching, even though it was online, and I just had a moment of clarity about how frustrating the whole situation was. Yes I had been there before, but it's like a marriage where there are some good things. I keep coming back because I value the material, but there is often a sour taste that comes with it. So I'll either learn to live with the sour taste or stop coming back at some point. I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong way to approach the situation. Thanks for your reflection.

I'm not sure. I think this is a very Tibetan approach, and that maybe some people's attempts, whether conscious or unconscious, to fit what Bruce is doing into that model can cause confusion and potential difficulties. Myself included.

I do feel many tangible benefits, but if there is a sour taste, either from my own lack of acceptance or some real or imaginary fault on the part of the teacher, it does effect the experience of practice for me, at least temporarily. I've been round this before though so it may resolve in time. It can be a a good opportunity to shift focus to teachings I've received from other sources...

Thanks Jess.O. You are probably right, but there's a couple of "gotchas". One is that no one else, so far as I know, teaches inner dissolving, which is a path I have gone quite a way down with Bruce. There are other meditation teachers I respect, but it's quite a thing to give up on something that has become so much part of my life. Also, there's a bit of unease around having "dissed" my teacher. I don't think it's a huge deal, but I do understand the sentiment of not "biting the hand that feeds you." Mind you, you'd think from some of the messages I've received that I'd committed some kind of sacrilege just daring to suggest that sunshine doesn't always shine out of Bruce's ass! I think for a while I need to emphasize the practices I've learned from other teachers over the years, but at the same time I've got quite a good groove going with Bruce's stuff, much of which I got via his instructors.... Hopefully clarity will emerge soon...

I'm looking for some videos which build on Lam Kam Chuen's excellent series ( ) I want to increase the duration of my practice and also learn some more advanced postures/internal work. I am aware I could do this without videos/with a teacher, but I'm specifically interested in practice videos - either online or to purchase. Any suggestions/recommendations? It doesn't have to be the same exact system, but I like the overall style and approach.

OK, I'm going to bite the bullet. I may post here again about it once I've worked with it for a while.

I like the look of this guy's work. He talks about and uses the kwa, which is pretty crucial in all chi work, as far as I can tell. The production of the videos on YouTube is a bit iffy though and the DVD is a a bit more expensive than I would like.