A.A.Khokhlov

Before I will answer that question about yuan qi I want to ask you question. Do you really believe/think the Wu Liu Pai methods you will become immortal in this body? Even Dimitri said that ming is not about physical immortality but childlike feeling. 

To not get far away from the original topic, please see my suggestion in PM.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

I hope I can contribute the other informations that you can't get from translation texts.

Shuowen Jiezi said 悟，覺也

It means

Enlightenment is awareness

I know in English

Enlightenment and awareness is different

But in ancient china

We can see from Shuowen Jiezi

Enlightenment is awareness

And this 寤 means - realize (understand), awake from sleep, awaken (hillarious, is it not? ).

We can see 覺悟 enlightenment and awareness the phrase was used before Buddhism came to China.

荀子．成相：「不覺悟，不知苦。」

Xun Kuang

Thank you for some part of Confucianist wisdom. But we are actually speaking about "Sudden Enlightenment" in Daoism, not about "awareness" in Confucianism.

If we don't enlightenment and awareness, we don't know what is pain. 

Just curious: is "become aware and enlightened to know what the pain is" a final stage in your school? 

Quite right, Marblehead, the word Buddha means The Awakened One, the word 'enlightened' though seemed to be the popular term to describe the attainment.  Whether Buddha-hood is the potential to be awakened or enlightened, the question, I suppose where the difference lies with Daoism, is wakened or enlightened from what. In Daoism, there is a primodial spirit, yuan-shen, then there is a 'san wen' roughly meaning three souls, and qi-pa, seven sensations(?), all these forming a single soul. The daoists in this cirlce should be able to correct my gross misconception in this. On the other hand, in Buddhism there is no soul, no spirit, just a consciousness, perhaps as some will say, it is merely semantics.

Agree. So far we haven't seen any references to Daoist "sudden enlightenment". Lets see, probably someone will manage to finally find it.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

I was not, but since you mention it, Chan is actually the oldest:

 

The Flower Sermon is a story of the origin of Zen Buddhism in which Śākyamuni Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) transmits direct prajñā (wisdom) to the disciple Mahākāśyapa. In the original Sino-Japanese, the story is NengemishōNiān huá wéixiào[/size] (拈華微笑, literally "Pick up flower, subtle smile").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

"The story of the Flower Sermon appears to have been created by Chinese Chán Buddhists.[3] The earliest known version of the tale appeared in 1036.[3]"

Basing on tales a one will probably become a good storyteller 

Huineng says they are one and the same

 

Chapter VIII. The Sudden School and the Gradual School

While there is only one Dharma, some disciples realize it more quickly than others. The reason why the names 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' are given is that some disciples are superior to others in mental dispositions.[/size]

 

So far as the Dharma is concerned, the distinction of 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' does not exist." [/size]

 

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/hui_neng8.html

Of course, how can it be otherwise? Either  you are fully awake, or you are not.

It is Chan buddhism text. I believe trying to find the role and true meaning of "Sudden enlightenment" in Daoism we must base on something more Daoist and more authoritative than Chan Buddhist texts, English articles and tales.

So you think "enlightenment" is a Buddhism word?

I think "enlightenment" is obviously an English word.

悟，is a Chinese word.

The word 悟 is earlier than Buddhism .

Before Buddha was born, 悟 is already there.

Right, it is a Chinese word. With meaning understand, awake.

"Etymology: 悟, From heart 忄心 and phonetic 吾. Meaning to realize (understand)."

Chinese Daoism don't separate Buddhism brom Daoism.

Quite funny claim https://www.google.ru/search?q=taoism+and+buddhism+conflicts

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Courious, confused, misunderstand, etc

 

I saw a better guess, 見性, Jian-xin

Very nice (just a tiny correction - the second is spelled as xing, not xin). It is a buddhist term meaning "understand your original nature, become buddha".

Have you found this being translated as "enlightenment" in some dictionary?

Have you seen a Daoist alchemy text describing this happening suddenly, without passing traditional stages?

yuan qi is very easy to regenerate. what's the deal? in stillness yuan qi regenerate, when breath becomes subtle is breathing yuanqi etc.

How do you notice that your yuanqi is being regenerated? How do you distinguish it from ordinary qi? Where is it located? How much of it do you have remaining?

Damo Mitchell's White Moon on the Mountain Peak has a chapter on the stages of immortality which has given me some perspective on this.

 

 

 

 

 

A couple of pages earlier....

 

 

 

 

 

 

The perspective given here would appear to indeed agree that certain Xing only practices can land one in a trap, but it also makes more clear the nature of the rainbow body often associated with Tibetan Buddhism.

Thank you for this point of view. It has common points with Yuxianpai and Wuliupai doctrines, but also has differences: usually in Daoism Xing must unite with Ming, so there is no Xing and Ming anymore. It happens on Dixian (Earthly immortal) stage. 

To not confuse the matter further, in the Vedantic tradition of Hindu dharma, enlightenment is sudden. It is explained as such - practice/sadhana is like tending to and watering a fruit tree. Enlightenment is like the ripening of a fruit. When the fruit is ripe and ready, it will "suddenly" break free from the tree and fall to the ground.

 

In terms of meditation and jnana (spiritual knowledge), all the studying and contemplation, supported by a proper mediation practice is preparatory. When the individual is ready, realization is sudden and complete. The knowledge and contemplation helps the mind understand and "fall in line" when the practice occurs. Eventually, the mind falls into the source of everything (we call it the True Self, Atman or Brahman, Daoists call it Dao) and ceases to exist. Then all that exists is the unending awareness of that Non-Dual IT. That is immortality. The cessation of the mind (called Manonasha or Mind-destruction) happens suddenly, though the process to get there is gradual.

Thank you for this comparison with Vedantic tradition. Are there also some stages which need to be passed gradually as in Daoist Alchemy or a single practice which a person must be doing?

This is a chuckle-worthy thread.

For a 'teacher' not to know that sudden enlightenment is not an only  buddhist term but is as alchemical as can get, to publicly express doubts about it being relevant to neidan, and not even  know how it is spelled in chinese, - is mildly amusing.

 

The sudden enlightenment is 頓悟 dùnwù.

 

The entire southern school hinges on the notion of 頓悟 dùnwù:

 

Zhang Boduan ... employs idea of Sudden Enlightenment ( 頓悟圓通 Dunwu Yuantong ) to define the Reversion to Emptiness of Inner Alchemy ( 內丹還虛 Neidan Huanxu ).

I usually advice my students not to rely on noname (and even named) Western articles in the internet but always do research and investigate themselves.

...accounts of alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment, which is described in explicitly Chan language. For this study, I searched for a set of keywords: a couple of relatively common keywords (dunwu 頓悟 and jianxing 見性)...

/“The Statistical Study of Neidan Literature” . Clarke Hudson, Dept. of Religious Studies, University of Virginia/

The same mistake. 悟 wù is not enlightenment. And 見性 is a buddhist term. 

BTW, probably you are able to point us to some exact places in Daoist texts describing "alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment"?

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

just as a side note:

Regarding the taoist art on your school's website, I ask myself:

Does your school already have a "WuLiu Pai car"???

Because you have one of the best airbrush artists of the world in Saint Petersburg: Alina Tarasenko!

Her custom airbrush art on cars is incredible!

I'm glad you love arts. Our website is very bright, it is true

We are working on new one, clarifying some translations, creating new articles, making it more comfortable to use.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

"Enlightenment" is not belief system specific.  The term "enlightenment" is tricky though - many different understandings of what it actually is.

 

But one can become suddenly enlightened, I think.  Perhaps by just sitting and meditating when all of a sudden everything that you have been practicing comes together in your mind.

 

And there are a number of Buddhists here who enjoy discussing Daoist concepts but more often than not they will use terms that have meaning to them.

 

I will add that there are numerous commonalities between Daoism and Buddhism even if we do not consider the religious aspects of either.

Agree. However it is quite interesting how the specific term will be in Chinese.

Depends on what you mean by immortal?

 

If immortal means the awareness you already are rather than the belief that you are the body then you can 'suddenly' become immortal.

Did I get you right? You mean awareness is another word for enlightenment. 

It is widening our question. We need to find a Chinese word meaning both "enlightenment" and "awareness" to check this concept in Daoism.

Traditionally in Daoism immortal doesn't mean awareness (such things unfortunately do not seem to be achievable by awareness).

Yes, you can be suddenly enlightenment because what you are striving for with practice or getting in one second is generally the same and already here. 

 

What is true is here, if you cultivate gradually you cultivate conventional and illusions. 

Daoist Patriarchs of all epochs were all writing about sequence of "laying the foundation", "refining jing to qi", "refining qi to shen", "refining shen to the void". You are blaiming them all do not know how to perform self-cultivation. Weak position, I think.

"Sudden enlightenment" translated in taoist terms would be the "realization of the valley spirit".

In other words: It's a necessary step in the quest for immortality and a subsequent tool for achieving a high development in taoist alchemy.

But in itself it doesn't do much and it doesn't mean a high development, it rather means a discovery.

Thank you for your opinion.

Sudden enlightenment = dharmakaya. You guys speaking your delusions about buddhism.

Purpose of this topic is to understand the connection of Daoism and Buddhism through the concept of "sudden enlightenment". First we need to find a proper Chinese term.

I find that rather 'enlightening'....  would like to hear more if  you care to share

 

I read somewhere that Xing and Ming are like, realization of longevity vs Enlightenment ;  Daoist vs Buddhist.

 

I've wondered why the daoist brought in the Buddhist concept of enlightenment given there is thousands of years of those who "attained Dao"...   why bother to add in enlightenment at all ?

Agree. In addition, traditional Schools are saying that you need to cultivate both sides - Xing and Ming, reaching them uniting into One. Which could be hypotetically called "enlightened Xing" with power of Ming. The name of it is Yangshen (= Yang Xing = Ming Xing )

悟真篇，use Wu 悟 as the first word of the title, how can you say there is no enlightment in Daoist?

 

Daoist cultivation is not only the skills of breathe you learned from your school.

 

Daoist cultivation is more than you know.

Very nice, thank you. So far we have 悟 as a hypothesis for enlightenment. Lets see what does it mean in translation from Chinese:

悟 - understand, comprehend with mind, awake, (in philosophy) understand the essense of things.

All meanings so far refer to mind, Xing, not sign of Ming or immortality here...

Could there be any other appropriate Chinese terms?

From the original words of Buddha in English?

悟 is a good translation for budh, to awake, to realize, budh in sanskrit does not means enlightenment.

Ming is closer to the ideo of "light" than wu.

 

Here from Buddhist Chinese Sanskrit Dictionary by Hirakawa, 

and for check Sanskrit English  http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/

Thank you damdao, very interesting.

Thanks Damdao, you point to many interesting tracks for further researches.

 

 顿悟 doesn't mean "Sudden enlightment" and anybody unsure about the meaning can do the ethymological research and make own conlusions about the validity of the opinion given by people exposing their enlightened confusion without shame.

Who knows, may be we will manage to find some more interesting Chinese terms?

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I have a question about WuLiu Pai theory, which is directly connected with yang shen:

 

Your school considers xing to be yin and ming to be yang:

http://www.all-dao.com/essence-taoist-alchemy.html

 

But in diverse classic taoist scriptures and taoist traditions,

it seems to be the other way around:

http://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_of_the_week_46_ryj.html

xing = qian => primordial yang

ming = kun => primordial yin

 

Can you please explain why there is this difference of interpretation?

 

kind regards,

 

Wells

In xiantian state it is like this. But ordinary human is in houtian state, and the cultivation process is designed for him. That is why in later-heaven bagua sequence Qian is in the bottom and Kun is in the top. 

Saying you have to lookup the truth in a book or get it from a teacher is false and undermining the whole cultivation scene.

 

You are the truth and what you are looking for. It is not something that exists some day in the future. That's the mind projecting "you" into the future.

 

And when you get to the "future" the mind will project "the results" into the future. This is how the mind functions.

In case you a right - words of famous Taoist immortals Lui Dongbin, Zhang Boduan and other famous patriarchs - are all "false and undermining the whole cultivation scene."

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

问曰：九年面壁之功，必九年静坐乎？

Question: is this work of 9 years facing the wall, a literal quiet sitting for 9 years?

答曰：非也。所谓九年者，即九还之意。面壁者，不是定坐，特用志不分，乃凝于神，而期于无一毫滓质之物。如壁立万刃于前，一无所见，万法归空之意。乃静养婴儿，脱化阳神之一着，非旁门静坐止念，面壁存神，以九年为九转也。

Answer: it is not.

What is called ‘9 years’ is in fact, nine stages of the refinement. Facing the wall is not sitting in Samadhi, but the application of an undivided will to congeal the spirit, so not a hair of polluting substance is left. It is similar to a sheer wall blocking the myriad spears so none is visible, the idea is for all dharmas to return to emptiness. This is a quiet nourishment of the infant in preparation for the transformation of the yang spirit, and not a side-gate quiet sitting and stopping thoughts. This facing the wall protects the spirit whereas the nine years mean the nine rectifications of the spirit.

/LYM/

Liu Yiming was practicing the Northern Method of Longmenpai so it might have been true for his methodology. By the way is there any information of him passing that level?

While in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai 9 years facing the wall is a stage when person is practicing for a long long time completely still in the cave for certain reasons facing the direction opposite to entrance of the cave.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Not only is the first sentence utter garbage but the entire first post is insiteful, petty and assumptive.

And I can assure you - Awaken does not live in a fantasy land. She and a very few others here have achieved much of the high forms you seek.

Probably you can provide any foundation beyond your personal dislike to sequential cultivation process in Daoism?

Maybe 40 years of experience...

Maybe... Maybe even in daoism... Who knows?

This is my thought, too. It isn't that AAK's depiction is "wrong" but that it is narrow -- it is a snapshot of one branch of an ancient tree presented (or interpreted as being presented) as "The Truth" despite the tree itself being presented as universal and eternal. To his credit, AAK appropriately defined that narrowness (which I copied in my light-hearted message above) AND that specific narrowness of focus is critical to understanding his perspective and objective. I think this is one of those cases where frequently restating the boundaries helps to avoid "scope creep."

What are my words backed by?

1) Traditional teaching of Yuxianpai alchemy School.

2) Traditional teaching of WuLiupai alchemy School.

3) Studying numerous ancient daoist texts. Which all say the same.

So:

Yes, it is how we teach in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai. 

Not at all, it is not an approach of Yuxianpai and WuLiupai only. It is same to words of many Patriarchs of ancient Daoism and approach of other traditional Chinese schools we are in contact with.

Clarification:

No, I don't say there might be no other approaches. But I say the results of different approaches may also be different.

For the record.  I pasted the quote above  one and only time in my convo with Awaken, without any claim, let alone the false one above. Here is the proof-link:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-liu-huayang/page-16#entry725635

 

The insinuations above, as well put by our betters are false, inciteful, petty and assumptive.

 

 

However, the hilarity of the situation is not that someone can get transmission face to face in 3 days.

No, far from it.

The hilarity is Wu Chongxu himself promising that anyone who reads his book will get full transmission and sainthood from his book only. In less than 3 days.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43003-riddle-me-this/?p=729822

You are twisting the words again. So much disrespect to fellow members.

Let me remind you the sequence:

1) Awaken (falsely) had said Liu Huayang was only 3 days with his Teacher.

2) People have asked for any proof for it.

3) You mentioned there was a proof in some link awaken has posted before.

4) People got no response from awaken (which means her words had no foundation).

5) You posted the mentioned message. Obviously trying to make a (false) foundation for her words.

It is clear for everyone. So you sat in puddle again trying to fool fellow members. 

And here is about your failed attempts to distort simple Patriarchs' words not being able to understand them: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43034-correcting-some-misinterpretations/

Yeah I read in Daoism Encyclopedia there is couple information of book transmission etc. that person just approaching the book, reading or whatever can become immortal. Rather to argue about it we need to look up for those books, proofs and results.

I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism.

This seems patently true for traditional neidan or alchemy, perhaps what is meant by these words just needs to be defined clearly. 

Yes it is correct. We use Daoist Alchemy and Traditional Daoism as synonyms.

There are gradual advancement in Nei Dan and it is You Wei,but there is direct realisation of both Xing and Ming and this is Wu Wei.

 

Also there is transsmision by the book,and few Nei Dan lineages are founded that way.Some even say that Nanzong Pai of Immortal Master Zhang Boduan is one such school.And there are also mentionts that WLP in early days of foundation started like this,so agan nothing wrong with this.If we look Lingbao tradition or Tai Qing tardition they all started as transsmision by the books which founder find in cave or some secluded place.

 

Ormus

You have probably misunderstood the meaning of Wu Wei and You Wei. I will clarify it additionally soon.

I haven't heard of direct realisation in neidan or alchemy before, if I wanted to look into this idea can you tell me what to look for specifically, or give me a link, doing a word search on 'direct realisation of both Xing and Ming' didn't lead me anywhere much. Thanks.

Agree. Here is a thread about it: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/

Look in the books of Longmen Pai Patriarch Master Liu I Ming,or his commentarys to Zhang Boduan and others.Then works of Founder of Zhong Pai,Master Li Daochun.

 

Ormus

I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

you are welcome.

 

I find your reply sirious,but whant to ask is this your official and final statement regarding times and symbolism how WLP define them?

 

Ormus

Well, for some specific students 100 days laying the foundation may symbolise 1000 days laying the foundation and even that might be not enough

Since time is derived from change, it is an abstraction. I am technically okay with saying that it is "unreal". It is a general idea applied to multiple levels of changes that have been experienced. If we experience ~365 sunrises and sunsets, and notice that this happening has certain periodic markers so that it is a noteworthy number, we can call this quantity a year and use it to describe things.

 

In that sense, time has no reality in itself; it is the interplay of yin and yang with one particular phenomena as a reference point for our description (in the above case, sunrise and sunsets).

 

It shouldn't take too much effort to extend this idea to alchemical processes where the alteration of yin and yang (in alchemy) is established terminology..

It makes sense. Ancient Yijing is about the Changes, but is it possible for relative people to understand it?

***No more bad dreams or nightmares as the Yin aspects have been refined completely, but still nice dreams : )

You can sense it as practice progresses. The dreams become more and more pleasant and more and more lucid.

In traditional daoism (= daoist alchemy) there are special practices to stop dreams. 

Dreams actually are fantasies, illusion, daoist patriarchs have written about it.

They might be more pleasant or less pleasant but all of it is for ordinary person. Alchemy master doesn't have dreams.

100 days Foundation: have chi

If One who know how to deal with Shen and chi

We can call him have the foundation

 

3 years lactation: stillness, chi go inside the 玄關

 

If one who know how to deal with 玄關竅

We can call him now how to lactation

 

9 years facing the wall: starting opening the emptiness

 

When one start the process of opening the emptiness

He won't have dream.

His middle Mai is open.

He start the evolution process of golden Dan

 

We can say his is in the process of 9 years facing the wall

 

 

 

 

There is still one more

 

10 months conceive

 

The first stage of 玄關

 

The first stage of light

 

When one can see the first stage of light

 

Look like tai jii

 

We can say he is in 10 months conceive

What daoist text have you taken this sequence from?

I guess I've had "teaching" dreams too....but I thought they were a byproduct of pontificating on the interwebz...

It is correct. Here is a quote from dictionary everyone is probably aware of:

"Dream

In the 100 days foundation, there are an infinite number of ways.

 

In the last stage , 9 years facing the wall, there is only one way.

 

The chi can be used or cultivated in many ways.

 

The using of chi will attract people very easily.

 

There are many branch roads in this way.

 

People are attracted by the magic power of chi.

What daoist text have you taken these statements from? Or is it your own thoughts?

There are some schools that say they can create the dantian for a student through a transmission. Would this complete the "100 day" part of the training?

 

I have heard that the foundation must be set by only the disciple's energy in order for the final stages of the process to work, though that could just be a rumor. Do you know if there is any truth to that rumor?

 

Also, you speak about the allure of magical applications of chi. Some schools advocate exploring applications (which could be considered magical) as a way of growing into the experience of "oneness" with the universe or understanding the energy body. Other schools say that exercising such abilities is a side path, some even say that it wastes cultivated energy and detracts from the late stages of alchemy. Do you have a perspective on the matter?

 

And, I guess (to be clear), laying the foundation is meant to restore energy lost from aging so that the body has the resources to do the alchemy training. So you seem to be saying that any methods that can do this are acceptable. Does this mean that the 9 years facing the wall need to be working with emptiness and no other practices (aside from maintaining health of energy, body, and mind)?

 

(Sorry, I have lots of questions---I won't ask any more)

Practically, it is not possible. Obviously it contradicts self-cultivation.

The very first sentence is patently untrue:

 

"Cultivating in traditional Daoism is a sequential process with stages need to passed one by one"

 

This is a statement of the mind - the conceptual mind - the one that loves engineering ones way to Enlightenment. It is as humorous as it is sad. Nothing could be further from the truth and this will stunt your growth, hold you back and pour you into unnecessary minutiae like nothing else.

 

It is like stating that in order to live the very best life you have to understand and control each movement of a swallow and each actual beat of the heart.

 

This is religion - the religion of the control freak in each of us - the one that loves the sleep because that is where he/she holds the reins over us.

---

 

This is candy in the candy store - "Sir, I would like to buy the big golden map behind you that comes with a book that has step by step instructions for becoming a rabbit because I want to enter a race with a turtle and have decided that as a rabbit it would be impossible to lose the race. This will provide me with the starting point and the finish line and is so perfect neat and tidy! How much is it? I would surely like to buy it."

 

If you wish to proceed far in cultivation all you need is a good foundation and live it. You have all the answers and they will all reveal themselves. The frequencies of karma that you are held in by yourself are always working you toward this and if you strive through cultivation - it is to move beyond the bonds you hold yourself with.

 

As the bonds are released cultivation brings with it an attraction to the very pages you are reading here. It brings an attraction to knowing yourself once again. Now that you are here - it is not something that you sign up for like at a gym. You arrive here and wish to grasp cultivation wherein you apply yourself to it - this is done precisely in releasing the control and grasping you have done in the forgetting of yourself.

 

Don't resist one type of religion only to join another - move toward your Self - intentional suffering is actually giving up your positions, your story, your pride and your willfulness - this is true cultivation.

All you are talking about - "realeasing bonds of karma" and so on is a kind of mindwork and has no relation to Daoism.

All living creatures have a simple karma - to die. If you can not escape from this - all these nice words about "releasing bonds of karma" remain just words...

I think sudden enlightenment is a xing experience. But even admiting sudden enlightenmet after that comes gradual cultivation, as zen says.

Besides there is a wide variety, levels and focuses of enlightenments, not all mutually compatible.

Neidan (in its broader sense) try to cultivate at the same time xing and ming, and in the Wuliu and Yuxian Pais the first step is about ming practice and it shoul follow the heaven pattern, the cycles, growing and waning of yin and yang, etc. 

What you have noticed above clearly corresponds with the meaning of the Chinese term oftenly translated as "sudden enlightenement". See http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/

I think that is a good source for correcting cultural bias about the concept of Taoism.

 

But, for many people, the important issue is not whether we are representing a tradition correctly. rather, the important issue is that we are accurately representing the process that Taoism (generally) is known for.

Known by whom? Should this knowledge be somehow backed by evidences?

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

"Sudden enlightenment" is a later buddhist term. A lot of buddhist are waiting for it to come one day...

But we are mostly daoists and are practicing this system. Who knows how "Sudden enlightenment" will be in Chinese? Does it have any relation to becoming a xian (immortal)?

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Of course he can't. The only thing he can do is pull strings of your imagination. The only school that can give you Yang Shen teachers are initiatory schools like Xian Tian Xiao Yao Pai or Xian Tian buddhist-related practices, other then that you forget. 

Please notice your message. Probably we will return to it later.

If you are good practitioner and cultivator you know and feel (for example from effaling video) yang energy. If you opened third eye you will see yang spirits.

Young yangshen is also called Dao fetus. You can not see Dao with any of your... let it be 3 eyes. And if you see any spirits it are yin spirits (ghosts). They exist in a large number and can take any form including Laozi, immortals and so on. And by the way they take such forms not without a reason !

If you think you are able to perceive invisible yangshen / Dao - it is easy to check. Where is Dao (life source) inside of you? How do you distinguish it from post-heaven qi? How much yuanqi do you have remaining?

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I cant asnwer because this is the biggest secret of Nei Dan and topic under oath as you know.

 

I am kiding a little, I hope you understand.

 

You are Master not me,I am simple  seeker and know nothing.You as authority is to better explain this topic.

 

Ormus

Thank you Ormus. It shows us that it would be really hard to find a symbolism in time span as it is one of things which are pretty definite.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

this timespans symbolise many things and I need here few pages to discribe all,but I am to mention now only one, it is Fire Phases -HH.

 

Ormus

Could you please tell us:

1) What exact symbolism is in 100 days laying the foundation and why?

2) What exact symbolism is in 3 years of breastfeeding and why?

3) What exact symbolism is in 9 years facing the wall and why?

Please comment only about time spans.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Hi A.A.,

 

When speaking of yang shen, are we referring to an energy body that is created to exist outside of our current physical body?

 

When I first had a peek at Huimingching, I thought 'hey this is all about astral projection'. Then I thought it was odd the idea that one could make any number of immortal fetus and release them into world. Ok, so something else going on maybe.

 

I'm thinking that a yin shen would be like what is called an astral body or dream body, hence insubstantial and ghost-like. Whereas a yang shen is the opposite--being able to manifest in a solid seemingly physical capacity to be seen and interacted with by physical beings in the world.

 

The question is whether consciousness 'goes into' a yang shen. Is it a new vehicle that a person can move into leaving the origin body behind? Astral body seems like an extension of consciousness, a way to reach outside our scope, but still connected (and these apparently fade after original body dies). Is yang shen like this or is it actually a whole new being created?

 

A mother gives birth to a baby; the baby is like her but is not her. How shall we understand this?

 

thanks, and thanks for taking the time to expound on Wuliupai teachings.

 

8)

Yes yinshen is actually a ghost. And Daoism says when a person looses his yuanqi (dies) he becomes a ghost. What happens next - is a separate issue...

Yes yangshen can manifest himself physically and do deeds in an outer world. It is said that immortal is not loosing his consciousness, moreover he attains super-consciousness.

Yangshen is connected with the body, but will not die if the body dies.

This is great.

But we have problem because no such Yang Shen manifested to any on this forum or other I know,to teach us real Nei Dan as he need to help us poor people in ignorance and perform what Patriarch Master of the Single Yang say in this text.

 

It is totaly opposite we have oridinary and mostly fake masters who ask huge sum of money and in this way show that they dont have Yang Shen at all.

 

Real Yang Shen please stand up and send me mail on pp.

 

Ormus

Teacher of Single Yang has visited our (His) branch in Russia in 2008. We are traveling China for corrections and Teaching by Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Schools several times a year.

Dear Seeker,

 

yes we rely on Yang Shen and we hear they can manifest.So why they dont manifest?

The answer is in the first message of the current topic.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Hi A.A. Khoklov!

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Really cannot see the posts from awaken anymore.....it starts to really annoy me!

 

My question:

As far as i know yuanjing is replenished in the "laying the foundations stage". But now you say that that yuanqi is one of the first things to replenish. So i am curious:

Is yuanjing replenished before yuanqi or are they replenished at the same time?

 

Thanks in advance!

best

Michael

Good question. These terms (repleneshing yuanqi / yuanjing) are oftenly used without distinguishing between them. The detailed instructions are for students of certain level.

You are suggesting, saying, that if one has not "passed" tests of your particular system one does not know Dao? Or, they do not know the teachings of the system in a practical sense and therefore can not or should not comment on it?

 

I can totally get on board with a person believing in a system that has benefited and enriched their life, but what is a huge red flag for me is when it is said that there is only one way to get to know the Dao.

 

I think having a teacher is important for sharing openings and experiences with and receiving feedback. The Dao is the real teacher, in every case, without exception as far as I am concerned. 

 

Having an open enough heart and being still have been the only obstacles I have seen in myself and others that hold us back, not time.

Lets be more precise here. I am talking about Dao of WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools. Which corresponds to teaching of many ancient Masters of Daozang. We call it Traditional Daoism. For me it seems that to practice Traditional Daoism you need to be a part of Tradition and cultivate according to it.

If you are practicing on your own and get benefits from it - well, I would say it is excellent! Sincerely. Being an instructor, it's my duty to add two points about it:

1) My Teachers have warned me about possible dangers of cultivating without a teacher which may come with time (i.e. high risk). And as an insturctor I have to mention it.

2) Different methods and ways, different understanding of texts - all of it obviously can lead to different results, isn't it?

I appreciate every person practicing and spreading Daoism greatly (except the cases when person intentionally discredit it with fakes, spam etc.), no matter of methods.

And by the way. Shouldn't Daoist results make people more flexible, more open to new?

For example, if one day I meet a person who is practicing himself, without a teacher and will be able to demonstrate me real results, either in unusual understanding (answering questions - about bagua and there are much more...) or in practice (there are certain signs on the body, energetic field and appearance) - I would willingly teach from him. Or if he is of the same level as me - it would be great to exchange the experience.

And yes - one of the first questions I would ask is: "How were you able... by yourself? Please tell me!"

However I would never betray my School, no matter how powerful people or methods I met.

Yes, there is only one way to get Dao - thru mind and body and energy, no other way. That's why concept of true teacher or true schools is fake. I said it in other topic - Wu Liu Pai creates false feeling in you of superiority.

 

How did teachers of their teachers know the Dao? thru 3 things - mind, body and energy. There is no other way, one way but Wu Liu Paist and other people want to portray that one way is that way of their brand. You can only know Dao thru those 3 things and reverse process to One (Dao). You do not even need to meditate or do any practice really to get the Dao.

Well... Daozang Patriarchs said differently: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/

But if you are talking about some kind of your Dao (comparing to the Dao of Traditional WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools) - it is ok.

I am in no way bashing their system of practice, I have zero experience with it.  

 

I do know the Dao well enough to know that WLP and the practitioners are part of the "10,000 things", therefore no different in the "eyes of Dao" than any other of the 9,999 things.

 

When we step out of the shadow of Dao it creates separation, this is when the finger pointing that one is right and the other is wrong starts. Not very Dao-like if anyone is asking...

 

Please see this diagram I've prepared (click to enlarge):

*******

 

You only need but a minute or a few seconds to receive a transmission. You can make that transmission last a lifetime by sincerely and mentally aligning with that energetic information every day.

 

However (and this is key), you may not ever be able to accurately vet what transpired in those transmissions. The majority of cultivators will never know the energetic truth in their lifetime. And in that vein, it is wise to be prudent with deities, gurus, energy masters, and people who talk openly about their spiritual achievements. There is extreme risk in degrading the positive spiritual condition with which you were born.

 

 *******

It is almost true. However it is like explaining a schoolboy "in a minute" how to build, launch, manage International Space Station and make it last forever. In theory - well, of course a child can somehow memorize everything... But in practice the chance is decreased with every additional word of such a teacher. I would estimate a chance of failure something like 99.999999999....%

Time is relative and quantum phisics say interesting things about it.

If we look hagiografies of oldest Immortals and Masters majority of them recive transmission in one day or in short meeting.When they recive it,then it is other story and for cultivation they need "time" like A.A.K mention on the first page.But this is time for work complete process and not time for transmission as topic say.

When we look youngest generation of Immortals from the time Nei Dan was created in VIII century we again see that transsmision can happen for one single day and by chance.For example look the case of founder of Quanzhen( to which WLP is sub-branch) Master Wang Chongyang by chance meet in tavern(he was alcoholic addict) two Immortals Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bin(he also liked much red wine and nice ladys) and they give him there transsmision and left.He never meet them again,but he continued his cultivation alone.How about that?Or I need to post other examples?

 

Regarding 9 years facing the wall,I think that initiated people know that this dont mean realy 9 years unmoving facing the wall,but it referes to cultivation of Yang Shen(so number 9 for Pure Yang) and occasional seating meditation in isolation for certain time.

 

If we see what Patriarch of Longmen Pai Master Liu I Ming say(other masters say the same)......100 days,3 years,9 years and 10.000 things are just symbolic and used by masters when they whant to express time,but also they say it is diferent for every individual.

 

Ormus

The names are symbolic and it is obvious. But what do symbolize timespans?

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Cultivating in traditional Daoism is a sequential process with stages need to passed one by one.

One of the first stages is repleneshing yuanqi. The time required to finish this stage depends (among other factors) on student's age. Stages names, like 

• "100 days laying the foundation"
• "3 years of breastfeeding"
• "9 years facing the wall"

all show us the required time. And what if deviations appear? What if student faces some difficulty or even danger in the cultivation process? The Teacher helps him/her. Same in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Schools.

So the process of studying / teaching requires Time.

==========================

Some forum members using the fact that only few of fellow members know Chinese, post parts of text in hieroglyphs as an "evidence" to their fantasies. As other members are not able to check what is the meaning of these words it becomes possible to fool fellow members.

One of the examples has some relation to this topic. "Taoist Texts" claimed in one of previous threads that "Liu Huayang was studying only 3 days from Wu Chongxu", bringing this fragment 

WuLiupai is a tradition consisting of the great School, its treatises (including modern ones!), Teachers, holy places and thousands of followers.

And what is "awaken's tradition"? No texts, no followers, no teachers, no school. Only one (well, two as we see in these topics) humans pretending to be makeshift teachers.

These senseless attacks seem to become boring to all fellow members...

Probably this: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/ can shed some light on your question.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Physical Immortality is one purported effect of neidan in houtian xiulian, but there are many accompanying skills, which a true teacher should be able to demonstrate.

 

I directed this question at AAK some time ago, but have not received a reply.

Here is some background: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=724254

 

Wuliu Pai, as other schools, claim to develop physical immortality and AAK recently stated that the physical body which is houtian jing, qi and shen is converted to Yang Shen; essentially going against what a lot of the Daoist literature claims; in that the postnatal cannot generate the prenatal.

 

So I'd like to ask a very fundamental question and simple question once again, not only to Wuliu Pai, but to all schools who claim that the impermanent physical body can be absorbed into and converted to Yang Shen, so that there is no longer a dying body present, but only the undying immortal body - or that the physical body can be made to last forever (immortality).

 

AAK claimed that they age in reverse and get younger instead of older, never get sick and escape death.

 

Wuliu Pai from my understanding is around 500 years old, again, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with your history. In this time, could we safely assume that you may have had at least 250 students, on the basis of around a 100 years of life with 50 students per century? - Maybe you have more students, maybe less. I am just using this as a crutch to illustrate my point.

 

So here is my question:

 

To support these claims in lieu of any demonstrations, in those ~500 years, can you point to any of your masters or their master's masters, whom are an embodiment of these achievements and are still alive today?

 

What are their names and where can we meet them?

 

There are pretty much two possibilities IMHO:

 

1. What AAK says is true and the masters of the school, going back to its inception are still alive today and teaching and have escaped death and achieved physical immortality.

 

OR

 

2. All the masters and their masters died an ordinary death and were either buried or cremated, indicating that the physical immortality claimed in their schools which supports the notion that the physical body can be prevented from dying and decaying, is actually false?

 

How does Wuliu Pai reconcile these beliefs with the history of their school?

Surely at least one of the Wuliu Pai masters must have achieved these things if they are teaching others about it?

 

What sort of argument can you give us AAK to substantiate these statements?

 

 

Gray hair returning to its original colour is not an indication of physical immortality.

The person will still die and be buried with their non-white hair.

 

It's my understanding that the IRF4 Gene is responsible for melanin regulation in hair:

http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=IRF4

 

Gene therapy will soon enough be able to change the hair colour to anything you like without dye; from gray to ginger.

 

Everyone will still die... It is the nature of all things born of Taiji; they are bound by the law of Yin and Yang; and so they are bound by death and decay. This is why in spiritual cultivation we focus on the cultivation of the immortal spirit only by using prenatal energy.

Please don't hesitate to ask again if you have some questions unanswered. Sometimes spam comes from some members and valuable messages may be lost inside.

1) About "showing" - please see my answer above.

2) However there are demonstartions from high-level Brothers and Teachers but each demonstration comes only after you reache certain stage.

3) So you say in Yin-Yang world everything comes to its end. I would say differently: the "end" violates Yin-Yang law. 

4) However becomming immortal means a person overcomes Yin-Yang law, see http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/

5) Hair can become black because of: hair dye, some kind of temporary medical therapy... or going back to youth. Please don't forget hair is only a sign of the result, not the result itself.

And finally to your main question - how can xiantian and houtian be connected? Easily: a human spread yuanqi to live and do deeds in the outer world. So the connection exists.

In Alchemy we use the reversed process to collect back yuanqi and become Xian (immortal).

Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Teacher of Single Yang (WuLiupai):

"... This way you will create and strengthen Yangshen.

In future Yangshen will go to travel 1000s li, everywhere will pass through many countries, wonderfully using true emptiness will suddenly appear and disappear, come through the Heaven and the Earth, will be able to "walk on the Sun and play on the Moon", coming in the water he will not drawn, in the fire he will not burn, will be able to freely penetrate through metal and stone, and will feel contentment in everything.

Yin and yang would not be able to impact him, vice versa he will be able to change yin-yang, wuxing (5 elements) would not be able to transform him, vice versa he will be able to transform wuxing. The Lord of hell wouldn't be able to control your death, deities wouldn't be able to manage your life, you will be absolutely free in everything.

If you would like to stay a little more on the Earth you can help people, do great deeds and do what you love the most. If you would like to exit from profane to the sacred you will ascend in the illlumination upwards and will change your position. No matter you will stay in the mundane world or exit it, everywhere you will be able to help the world, benefit living creatures, straighten the correct and eradicate the evil, save from drought and flood, stop natural disasters and misfortunes.

You will be able to spread wonderful treatises, every day expounding a ten thousand words to spread the Dao and spread the law by "transmitting the lamp" to save everything living. In complete freedom with miraculous abilities you will be able to transform without limitations. Thus 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100 000, 1 000 000 calps, eternally being alive without burths and deaths, and up to form being divided to 100, 1000, 10000, 100 000 transformed bodies filling the Great Universe in an absolute freedom without limitations.

You would need to continue this achievement by further practice..."

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I agree that someone who whant to study Nei Dan need True Teacher and secret oral instructions Koujue.This is true also for other aspects of Daoism(like in religious-ritual Daoism).

 

Here in the text point 8 is strange how it is Lu Dongbin work which mention Zhang Boduan when we know that Master Zhang comes later in time and generation?

 

Point 9 Ge Hong speaks about Wai Dan(laboratory Alchemy) but I agree the same rules except blood are for Nei Dan.

 

Few Nei Dan Masters(of many) with whom I speak say one importaint point .....and this is: True Teacher is the one who realised Golden Elixir,more precisly above it secret Purple Elixir and who have Yang Shen and stay here on earht to teach students.All others are not nor can be True Teacher because their still work on themselfs and their work is not finished,so they cant teach others because in this way blind leading the blind.How many are there such Teachers?I dont know I didnt meet anyone from that level.But I hear that even in China there are maybe few of them.

And when I think about this it is correct because how someone posing as Master is to teach others and he himself still continue to transform Qi to Shen for example?And we see that all or almost all of Masters present in the west but also in China are still working on themselfs.What is to happen if such Master die by accident?Students left alone and cant go further,or if student somehow come to the level of Master by years,and Master stagnates on the same level.How student is to go further?

So only realised ones with Yang Shen are True Teachers,others can be considered helpers or instructiors but not a Master.

 

Our second biggest problem today is money......more precisly huge money that Masters ask.One of the highest authority of Daoism and Master of 1 level who live in USA(he dont practice Nei Dan but he know related older inner practices) told me in personal conversation that real Daoist Masters are not to ask you for 1 $ to teach you.It is free and it is only for accepted students who become like second son to the Master.Student can give on itself money and other valuables as exchenge of Virtue,but Master if accet student cant ask for money.He also say me that real Masters only have few students,and that today trend to have hundred students are just selling Daoism for dolars and all this is not traditional nor Master can observe and test all them nor to make clouse relationship with all this people.

 

Ormus

Dear Ormus,

p.8 - the text from Daozang consists of Lu Dongbin words and the commentary part, these words are from the commentary.

The only simple rule about Teacher's level is: student (in Alchemy) can not go above his Teacher's level. Renxian can teach you how to become Renxian, Dixian - how to become Dixian and so on.

But don't forget that your Teacher has his own Teacher and entire School with extremely high-level Masters and if for some reason a student overcomes his Teacher - he will not be blocked. The only true is: every person is a blockage to himself, and no more blockages exist.

Moreover the higher level Master is - the higher level dangers he has. And if there is only a single person (not School) - who will help in case of accidents?

People get deceived easily. Even rational, logical, objective people.

 

So finding a 'true teacher' is just a matter of luck? of fortune or destiny?

 

Because as was said many ppl who felt they had excellent teachers died and lived normal lives.

 

Ppl can only 'teach' what they know and have achieved. Now, since it is not allowed to share comments on peoples personal results in neidan, how can anyone know what their 'teacher' has achieved? And if a teacher has achievement, how do they demonstrate this to leave no doubt? Because immortality cant be 'demonstrated' except by out living everyone (self demonstration).

 

Would-be teachers need to lead with RESULTS, otherwise we have NO WAY to judge them or the veracity of their claim to be teachers in the first place.

 

This is why ppl ask the age and appearance of neidan folks--if the claims of neidan are true, SHOW US; if no one to show us, then how did they fail or why not yet succeed? Or, neidan is false in its claims.

 

8)

About "feeling of having excellent teachers" - well... Simple example: a lot of people in the world eat fastfood and "feel they eat excellent". But health problems come with time.

Unfortunately in the modern world people loose the true feelings more and more.

Why "showing magic" is not that perfect way you may think?

Remember David Blane or David Copperfield. Have they shown you magic? Yes. What do you think of it? It's a trick.

Teachers are important, but just as important is for student to go beyond teachers. If they dont, what is value of teaching?

 

8)

True.

Hi, Dr. Khokhlov,  thank you for making this very clear post.  It is very important for the new student to have a qualified teacher, but in the case of the western student, it is even more difficult, because of the lack of native language skills in Chinese.   My own teacher said once that he thinks most people will find it almost impossible to study nei dan because of the complexity of its theory and linguistic problems facing both westerners and young Chinese, as well as the lack of qualified teachers available today.  Later he rephrased it and said that it will be very difficult, and anyone wanting to study nei dan will have to work very hard and make big sacrifices.

I'm glad to see someone as learned as yourself sharing with us here and wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your generous translation of these materials.

Best wishes to you and your future success!

 

Sincerely,

Robert J. Coons

Thank you for kind words Robert. The words of Patriarchs from this topic 100% correlate with my own experience, with experience of my Teacher and my brothers and sisters in Russia and China. That is what gives us all confidence.

Gray hair that returns to original colour?

Yes.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

E.A.Torchinov was a genius of 20 century. There were no computers, no internet, no electronic dictionaries. The process of translation was:

1) See a new term.

2) Manually seek for it in 20 (and more) different dictionary books (real books).

3) If some of dictionary entries are not clear - seek for its terms' descriptions and so on.

4) Go to China to find rare dictionaries to take back home.

5) Communicate in China with Chinese researchers asking for their explanation of some parts of text...

6) Repeat pp.1-5 more and more.

Nowadays almost any person can call himself a translator, only having a computer (howevery, with lack of translation quality and numerous mistakes).

But E.A.Torchinov and other translators of previous century - were greatest professionals without any doubts. And they deserve great respect from every modern translator and daoist.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

What is usually described as "light" is related to Northern method of alchemy. We are now preparing a translation of article about Southern and Northern methods of Taoism, we are going to publish it soon.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov